No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited April 2017 Posts: 10,566
    Urgh! The new title change is daunting, but appropriate. Are we absolutely sure that a strike would affect Bond? Is it possible they finish the script before the strike takes effect?
    Considering Purvis + Wade were only recently hired, it's highly unlikely that a script will finish prior to the strike.

    My goal isn't to spread some sort of mass-hysteria within the boards, but rather just telling it like it is. Regardless, it's hardly the first time an issue such as this one has hampered a Bond production in recent years. It'll be fine.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    jake24 wrote: »
    Urgh! The new title change is daunting, but appropriate. Are we absolutely sure that a strike would affect Bond? Is it possible they finish the script before the strike takes effect?
    Considering Purvis + Wade were only recently hired, it's highly unlikely that a script will finish prior to the strike.

    My goal isn't to spread some sort of mass-hysteria within the boards, but rather just telling it like it is. Regardless, it's hardly the first time an issue such as this one has hampered a Bond production in recent years. It'll be fine.

    Yes, I see from your timeline that it was early march that it was first reported - I just wasn't sure if that was when they were presumed to have begun the writing, or whether it could have been earlier.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    As I keep saying, P&W had a pre-existing Bond story written up before they were "re-hired," for lack of a better word. So more work was done via that story treatment and the response they got back from EON than there would be if they were just sought for scripting duties out of the blue last month. The process of scripting Bond 25 has gone beyond post-March for them.
  • Posts: 3,929
    phibes72 wrote: »
    One final Craig film, tie up all the loose ends, and then reboot. Blofeld escapes, Bond comes out of retirement as a favour to M. Big spectacular chase picture, then widens to a save the world scenrio. You can take out the Madeline revenge angle, just have Bond saying "it didnt work out" etc etc. Give Dan, a big globe trotting spectacular to end his reign. I would love it to end with Bond and Blofeld battling on the mountains (where his parents died) giving closure to the themes of the Craig era.

    This sounds like Sherlock Holmes.
  • edited April 2017 Posts: 12,842
    I really look forward to the day we can log into MI6 and see this thread's title read something like: B25: Release Date Announced!
    I do feel it's probably likely there has been more progress on the plotting and scripting of the next film that we realize. At least I hope so. Perhaps the strike won't be so bad. The strike of '07/'08 didn't delay production on QoS.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Do these people even have a distribution deal in place yet? They can (and should) work on the script and preliminary location selection but I would think that this critical piece would be a requirement to move the whole process forward a notch.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited April 2017 Posts: 10,566
    bondjames wrote: »
    Do these people even have a distribution deal in place yet? They can (and should) work on the script and preliminary location selection but I would think that this critical piece would be a requirement to move the whole process forward a notch.
    You're right about that.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,821
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I do feel it's probably likely there has been more progress on the plotting and scripting of the next film that we realize. At least I hope so. Perhaps the strike won't be so bad. The strike of '07/'08 didn't delay production on QoS.

    Hopefully they'll have the bare bones (as Craig once said about QoS) of the script finished if the strike happens and that's a big "if" because they'll first have to vote for the authorization of the strike. That will likely be a success but the WGA will use it as leverage to minimize any future 'extortion' by the AMPTP. It's basically a last warning.

    If the strike happens (post May 1st), it'll start months of B25 production slowing, either dramatically or all together. But I'm optimistic.

  • Posts: 12,264
    Writer's strike or not? Surely Eon are going to be forced sooner or later to make some sort of announcement?
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,566
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    Writer's strike or not? Surely Eon are going to be forced sooner or later to make some sort of announcement?
    Not of they have nothing to announce.
  • jake24 wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)
    But the film can just as easily take place in the same timeline. There's nothing that contradicts the idea.

    I think we have two completely different conversations going on here, haha. I never said they aren't in the same continuity. The original point boldfinger made and that had occurred to me as well was that SF provided a standalone story in the wake of QOS (as opposed to another Quantum story), therefore B25 can provide a standalone story in the wake of SP (as opposed to another SPECTRE story). They are clearly all part of the same continuity, however, just as Bonds 1-20 were all part of the same continuity. I don't think anyone has contended that.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day

    Had Brosnan done FRWL, he would have done so the minute she was shot dead.

    Took him 39 years but he got around to it eventually. ;)
    I'm not saying I agree with the critical reception. I think enormously highly of QOS and there are obviously very strong supporters of SP as well. Nevertheless, QOS and SP have been at large received very differently from CR and SF.

    As for B25 having to follow up from where SP left off, I'm afraid we simply disagree on this point. What did SP tease that needs to be immediately followed on from? Blofeld is in prison. SPECTRE ostensibly is a headless snake now. Sure, they could drum up another SPECTRE story, break Blofeld out of prison or whatnot, but they don't need to. The threat is done with. Unlike QOS actually, where the threat was very much alive and out there and yet went completely ignored in SF. That's all I'm saying. There isn't anything SP started that can't be ignored for a film or two—or more.

    It could've be more obvious from the look Blofeld gives to Bond and Madeleine on that bridge that it's not over.

    I see, as opposed to the look on White's face as he leaves the opera in QOS, which explicitly tells the audience, "Welp, that's it for me. Bond found me out at my opera so I'm closing up shop. Enjoy the rest of the movie but expect not to hear from Quantum for a good while." ;)

    The point remains: Blofeld is locked up. The story of SP is concluded. In fact, they clearly wrapped things up in such a way that the ending of SP could be seen as a definite conclusion to Craig's whole tenure should he not return for a fifth. They certainly have the legroom and then some to back-burner Blofeld and SPECTRE alike for the next film or two or more should they choose. Far more legroom than they had in the wake of QOS.
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)

    Continuity isn't just about making random references to buzzwords from the last movies, we do know that, yes?

    See my response to, jake24. You're making an argument where there is none. I've never questioned general continuity.
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.

    I couldn't agree more with this assessment. It's why I'm a bit optimistic with 'Bond 25' (especially if Mendes doesn't return), for surely there's no way it'll be worse than SP.

    I'm still not sure which direction they may take B25, but I doubt it'll be as "obvious" as some on here are making it out to be.

    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I almost don't want a bond 25 the more that I think about it because EON and MGM and the creative team are so inept and just seem like they will be unable to deliver a great bond film in the next couple years.
    You Crazy.

    He has every reason to feel that way.
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    Writer's strike or not? Surely Eon are going to be forced sooner or later to make some sort of announcement?
    by who?

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Costa Mucho
    Posts: 41,990


    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day

    Had Brosnan done FRWL, he would have done so the minute she was shot dead.

    Took him 39 years but he got around to it eventually. ;)



    Like a fine old wine.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    edited April 2017 Posts: 7,316
    I wonder when we'll find out the result of this vote. From what I see online, people seem up for it.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 5,918

    I wonder when we'll find out the result of this vote. From what I see online, people seem up for it.
    I believe the voting starts on April 21; the contract ends on May1
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,566
    Voting will commence on the 19th and will run until the 24th.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I really look forward to the day we can log into MI6 and see this thread's title read something like: B25: Release Date Announced!
    I do feel it's probably likely there has been more progress on the plotting and scripting of the next film that we realize. At least I hope so. Perhaps the strike won't be so bad. The strike of '07/'08 didn't delay production on QoS.

    That would be nice to see a release date
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    edited April 2017 Posts: 1,821
    jake24 wrote: »
    Voting will commence on the 19th and will run until the 24th.

    @jake24 Technically it begins the 18th (WGA West). East side and online voting starts the 19th, as you mentioned.

    "Voting by members of the WGA West will begin on April 18 at a special membership meeting at the Sheraton Universal..."

    Source: http://deadline.com/2017/04/wga-sets-dates-for-strike-authorization-vote-1202060610/
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 35,186
    @Some_Kind_Of_Hero, it's why I don't care for the decision to connect all the films in the fourth installment of Craig's era. I get it with CR/QoS, being a rare sequel for the series, but most of it was hardly mentioned in SF.
  • Yes, retconning SF was especially unforgivable.
  • Posts: 630
    Getafix wrote: »
    I want a retro old school Bond poster for B25.

    The new Star Wars poster is very good. Nice 70s vibe

    I agree that Bond 25 needs a retro poster, but don't care for the new SW one. It's mainly because of the giant split heads, with Luke's being larger, causing a weird disproportion. It evokes Kylo Ren's lightsaber, which I do like, and the lightsaber foreshadows the balance of The Force, but the symbolism is ruined for me by the floating heads.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 4,521
    I'd rather see the end of the novel YOLT--including the cliffhanger.

    Start B26 with Craig, or introduce a new Bond. Audiences will go along.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    echo wrote: »
    I'd rather see the end of the novel YOLT--including the cliffhanger.

    Start B26 with Craig, or introduce a new Bond. Audiences will go along.
    I didn't know Bond 25 got released?
    :-O
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    jake24 wrote: »
    Voting will commence on the 19th and will run until the 24th.

    @jake24 Technically it begins the 18th (WGA West). East side and online voting starts the 19th, as you mentioned.

    "Voting by members of the WGA West will begin on April 18 at a special membership meeting at the Sheraton Universal..."

    Source: http://deadline.com/2017/04/wga-sets-dates-for-strike-authorization-vote-1202060610/

    Well this will be interesting
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    Not to harp on this, but it's a basic function of SP's story for Blofeld's claims of power to be laughable. We as the audience know he has no right taking credit for what happened to Bond, and that inflated ego of his serves to characterize him thusly.

    People take Blofeld at his word far, far too often, only examining the surface of what he says and taking it as truth. By doing so, any nuance or complexity in his character is missed entirely. He's a psychopathic egotist, you shouldn't trust him as far as you can throw him, and that goes doubly for what he says. Part of the reason Bond has such an amused reaction while listening to him drone on is because of just that. He knows Blofeld is full of shit and counts on his foot soldiers to do his bidding. His line to Madeleine, "I think we're supposed to be impressed" is his view of Blofeld, the man, in as succinct a fashion as he could muster. He's a guy who gets off on power, simply because he has lacked so little of it. When he takes credit for the past events Bond has faced, he's again protecting his own ego and making himself seem all powerful. We and Bond both know the truth, however, and we should laugh in his face as is intended.

    But I won't blabber on.
  • I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    Not to harp on this, but it's a basic function of SP's story for Blofeld's claims of power to be laughable. We as the audience know he has no right taking credit for what happened to Bond, and that inflated ego of his serves to characterize him thusly.

    People take Blofeld at his word far, far too often, only examining the surface of what he says and taking it as truth. By doing so, any nuance or complexity in his character is missed entirely. He's a psychopathic egotist, you shouldn't trust him as far as you can throw him, and that goes doubly for what he says. Part of the reason Bond has such an amused reaction while listening to him drone on is because of just that. He knows Blofeld is full of shit and counts on his foot soldiers to do his bidding. His line to Madeleine, "I think we're supposed to be impressed" is his view of Blofeld, the man, in as succinct a fashion as he could muster. He's a guy who gets off on power, simply because he has lacked so little of it. When he takes credit for the past events Bond has faced, he's again protecting his own ego and making himself seem all powerful. We and Bond both know the truth, however, and we should laugh in his face as is intended.

    But I won't blabber on.

    It's the film that objectively tells the viewer that Silva, Patrice, Le Chiffre, Greene, etc. are agents of SPECTRE. The film attributes this omnipotence to Blofeld, regardless of how reliable we're intended to find him.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I'm glad you can read all that into the film for your own sake but despite you seeing this subtle nuisance in SPECTRE a good number of us just think it's lazy story telling.

    P&W just papering over the cracks of a script that went off the rails and was left to fester for far too long, hopefully BB & MGW have learnt their lesson.

    I certainly don't want another film in 2018 if the result is what we got here, let P&W come up with an outline then give it over to a proper screenwriter with a proviso that this isn't your own to turn Bond into something he is not, no projecting your own ideas of what you think the character is like happened with Logan.

    Maybe having Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee lay the groundwork is the best option because the one time they did it the other way round SPECTRE is the film we got.
  • Posts: 3,929
    jake24 wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)
    But the film can just as easily take place in the same timeline. There's nothing that contradicts the idea.

    I think we have two completely different conversations going on here, haha. I never said they aren't in the same continuity. The original point boldfinger made and that had occurred to me as well was that SF provided a standalone story in the wake of QOS (as opposed to another Quantum story), therefore B25 can provide a standalone story in the wake of SP (as opposed to another SPECTRE story). They are clearly all part of the same continuity, however, just as Bonds 1-20 were all part of the same continuity. I don't think anyone has contended that.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day

    Had Brosnan done FRWL, he would have done so the minute she was shot dead.

    Took him 39 years but he got around to it eventually. ;)
    I'm not saying I agree with the critical reception. I think enormously highly of QOS and there are obviously very strong supporters of SP as well. Nevertheless, QOS and SP have been at large received very differently from CR and SF.

    As for B25 having to follow up from where SP left off, I'm afraid we simply disagree on this point. What did SP tease that needs to be immediately followed on from? Blofeld is in prison. SPECTRE ostensibly is a headless snake now. Sure, they could drum up another SPECTRE story, break Blofeld out of prison or whatnot, but they don't need to. The threat is done with. Unlike QOS actually, where the threat was very much alive and out there and yet went completely ignored in SF. That's all I'm saying. There isn't anything SP started that can't be ignored for a film or two—or more.

    It could've be more obvious from the look Blofeld gives to Bond and Madeleine on that bridge that it's not over.

    I see, as opposed to the look on White's face as he leaves the opera in QOS, which explicitly tells the audience, "Welp, that's it for me. Bond found me out at my opera so I'm closing up shop. Enjoy the rest of the movie but expect not to hear from Quantum for a good while." ;)

    The point remains: Blofeld is locked up. The story of SP is concluded. In fact, they clearly wrapped things up in such a way that the ending of SP could be seen as a definite conclusion to Craig's whole tenure should he not return for a fifth. They certainly have the legroom and then some to back-burner Blofeld and SPECTRE alike for the next film or two or more should they choose. Far more legroom than they had in the wake of QOS.
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)

    Continuity isn't just about making random references to buzzwords from the last movies, we do know that, yes?

    See my response to, jake24. You're making an argument where there is none. I've never questioned general continuity.
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.

    I couldn't agree more with this assessment. It's why I'm a bit optimistic with 'Bond 25' (especially if Mendes doesn't return), for surely there's no way it'll be worse than SP.

    I'm still not sure which direction they may take B25, but I doubt it'll be as "obvious" as some on here are making it out to be.

    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    I'm not as bothered by this as some are here, but it is slightly irritating to think that it would have been relatively easy to have had Blofeld take over Quantum and let things run on more naturally from there.
  • Posts: 12,501
    @vzok Same here. I'd been championing Blofeld's return for years but the angle I always thought they should take was to reveal him
    as head of Quantum. I thought it'd be a bit contrived to have two evil organisations. But the film made it work, and it fits with Spectre's background in the books (members from the biggest criminal organisations).

    Of course in a perfect world Quantum never would've existed and they would have had the rights back for 2008 (I was certain at the time that White's organisation in CR was hinting at a return for Spectre, I thought they were being vague about it to buy themselves time to sort out the legal issues) but oh well. It worked out in the end.
    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    Not to harp on this, but it's a basic function of SP's story for Blofeld's claims of power to be laughable. We as the audience know he has no right taking credit for what happened to Bond, and that inflated ego of his serves to characterize him thusly.

    People take Blofeld at his word far, far too often, only examining the surface of what he says and taking it as truth. By doing so, any nuance or complexity in his character is missed entirely. He's a psychopathic egotist, you shouldn't trust him as far as you can throw him, and that goes doubly for what he says. Part of the reason Bond has such an amused reaction while listening to him drone on is because of just that. He knows Blofeld is full of shit and counts on his foot soldiers to do his bidding. His line to Madeleine, "I think we're supposed to be impressed" is his view of Blofeld, the man, in as succinct a fashion as he could muster. He's a guy who gets off on power, simply because he has lacked so little of it. When he takes credit for the past events Bond has faced, he's again protecting his own ego and making himself seem all powerful. We and Bond both know the truth, however, and we should laugh in his face as is intended.

    But I won't blabber on.

    I loved the film and for the most part think it's excellently written but I do think you're reading too much into things here. Bond even says "lets go and find the man who killed the people we love" or something similar to Madeline doesn't he? It's pretty clear that we're supposed to take Blofeld's word for it and accept him as the big bad behind the last few films: there'd be no stakes for the finale otherwise (there was Nine Eyes but that was sidelined for the personal Bond/Blofeld conflict).

    Personally I thought it was really cool how they tied things back to the beginning with CR/QoS, but Silva being a Spectre agent is one of my biggest issues with the film.

    There's nothing in SF to indicate he was working for Spectre (he even says that he "makes his own" missions). Part of his appeal is that he was this unhunged wildcard type, I don't know why the writers felt the need to retcon one of the greatest villains of all time into being another of Blofeld's lackeys. It also makes Blofeld look bad by comparison: Bond coming back into his life through his missions, and Blofeld taking the opportunity to have some fun and get some revenge in the proccess (Vesper)? I like that idea, I think it adds to him as a villain. But Blofeld going out of his way to hurt Bond (with no other benefit to himself) by bankrolling Silva's insane, convoluted revenge plan? Makes him seem less like an evil mastermind and more the petty jealous bitch that his detractors see him as. The brother angle was quite downplayed but he has no other motivation to kick off the events of SF, so this takes away from him as a character imo.

    Plus SF had already had enough of an impact to make its own mark on the continuity (M's death, MI6 being destroyed). There was no reason at all to tie Silva in with Spectre imo. I know some have said it makes sense as to how he got all his resources but I was perfectly happy with the idea that he managed to save enough for guns, mercenaries, etc, through his work as a hacker PMC.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    @vzok Same here. I'd been championing Blofeld's return for years but the angle I always thought they should take was to reveal him
    as head of Quantum. I thought it'd be a bit contrived to have two evil organisations. But the film made it work, and it fits with Spectre's background in the books (members from the biggest criminal organisations).

    Of course in a perfect world Quantum never would've existed and they would have had the rights back for 2008 (I was certain at the time that White's organisation in CR was hinting at a return for Spectre, I thought they were being vague about it to buy themselves time to sort out the legal issues) but oh well. It worked out in the end.
    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    Not to harp on this, but it's a basic function of SP's story for Blofeld's claims of power to be laughable. We as the audience know he has no right taking credit for what happened to Bond, and that inflated ego of his serves to characterize him thusly.

    People take Blofeld at his word far, far too often, only examining the surface of what he says and taking it as truth. By doing so, any nuance or complexity in his character is missed entirely. He's a psychopathic egotist, you shouldn't trust him as far as you can throw him, and that goes doubly for what he says. Part of the reason Bond has such an amused reaction while listening to him drone on is because of just that. He knows Blofeld is full of shit and counts on his foot soldiers to do his bidding. His line to Madeleine, "I think we're supposed to be impressed" is his view of Blofeld, the man, in as succinct a fashion as he could muster. He's a guy who gets off on power, simply because he has lacked so little of it. When he takes credit for the past events Bond has faced, he's again protecting his own ego and making himself seem all powerful. We and Bond both know the truth, however, and we should laugh in his face as is intended.

    But I won't blabber on.

    I loved the film and for the most part think it's excellently written but I do think you're reading too much into things here. Bond even says "lets go and find the man who killed the people we love" or something similar to Madeline doesn't he? It's pretty clear that we're supposed to take Blofeld's word for it and accept him as the big bad behind the last few films: there'd be no stakes for the finale otherwise (there was Nine Eyes but that was sidelined for the personal Bond/Blofeld conflict).

    Personally I thought it was really cool how they tied things back to the beginning with CR/QoS, but Silva being a Spectre agent is one of my biggest issues with the film.

    There's nothing in SF to indicate he was working for Spectre (he even says that he "makes his own" missions). Part of his appeal is that he was this unhunged wildcard type, I don't know why the writers felt the need to retcon one of the greatest villains of all time into being another of Blofeld's lackeys. It also makes Blofeld look bad by comparison: Bond coming back into his life through his missions, and Blofeld taking the opportunity to have some fun and get some revenge in the proccess (Vesper)? I like that idea, I think it adds to him as a villain. But Blofeld going out of his way to hurt Bond (with no other benefit to himself) by bankrolling Silva's insane, convoluted revenge plan? Makes him seem less like an evil mastermind and more the petty jealous bitch that his detractors see him as. The brother angle was quite downplayed but he has no other motivation to kick off the events of SF, so this takes away from him as a character imo.

    Plus SF had already had enough of an impact to make its own mark on the continuity (M's death, MI6 being destroyed). There was no reason at all to tie Silva in with Spectre imo. I know some have said it makes sense as to how he got all his resources but I was perfectly happy with the idea that he managed to save enough for guns, mercenaries, etc, through his work as a hacker PMC.

    No, he doesn't. Bond quite clearly thinks Blofeld is full of it and claims too much to his name, because he does.

    As for the Silva connection, it explained the guy's funding well (the endless gunmen for a so-called independent operator) and also sensibly leads into SP. For the coming Nine Eyes program of C's to go through (which was months in the planning during SF's time period), Blofeld had to create fear or terrorism and a need for a surveillance initiative that would strive to solve it by making London and the rest of the world safer. Blofeld teams up with C and says he'll make sure that the fear of terrorism exists in London, and that the Brits will be forced to accept the surveillance program. In enters Silva, who needs just a little funding to go around London blowing things to kingdom come in search of the woman who leads the nation's intelligence service. By helping Silva on the side Blofeld is then contributing to acts like the MI6 explosion, courtroom massacre and underground raucous, events that cause fear and misery in the British from the top to the bottom. M's death is only small bananas in comparison.

    With Silva's terrorist-like acts perpetrated and the fear transmitted, Britain's wounds are fresh and C is able to present his Nine Eyes surveillance project to stop future Silva's from attacking worldwide, and likely used Silva as a prime example of why his plan was so direly needed in committee meetings. In fear, the government agrees to entertain his idea and plans a worldwide vote for its initiation during the SP timeline. In the end C got what he wants and Blofeld gets what he wants too, all with the promise of having the keys to the surveillance program down the line.

    In that way, I think the events of SF cleverly yet subtly feed into what the SPECTRE plot of SP is, showing why Blofeld would support Silva's mission to forward his own. I don't think that's reading too much into it, it's just thinking.
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