No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.
    Where was that line from?
    Skyfall. Bond to Severine at the bar when he holds her wrist.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126

    I believe the original point was that SF moved on from QOS without addressing any of the characters, plot points, or story threads from its predecessor, therefore there's no reason to think B25 can't do the same with SP.

    As @bondjames states, the real question here is will they? SP fared roughly the same as QOS critically (slightly poorer according to Rotten Tomatoes) and both fell quite short of their immediate predecessors.

    Just looking at recent history, the clean slate approach of Skyfall makes sense, but if creative control remains in the hands of Craig and Mendes, we very well might see Spectre, Pt. Deux instead.

    Again, SP ended in a fashion that had to be followed up, and that basically teased another part outright, whereas QoS was the ending to the two part arc CR had set up; there wasn't any hanging thread to continue. It was the ending from which a new chapter could be written. We're still in that next chapter, which SF and SP started.

    I also think the reaction to SP has been blown out of the water, as too many people listen to American critics instead of looking internationally. There were an overwhelming number of places where SP outclassed SF, especially financially. I think QoS got hate for not being enough of a Bond film, and strangely SP got hate for being too much of a Bond film. Good luck finding the logic in that drivel.

    I do agree here I felt the end of spectre opened a new door for a different era of bond films.
  • jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)
  • Posts: 12,501
    QoS was referenced but it still feels like the black sheep of the Craig era. They ditched them for Spectre and downplayed any reference to it (Green gets the least attention of any Craig era villain in the various callbacks, did he even get a photo in the MI6 fun house set up?). Mr White came back but his character predates QoS anyway and even then, he was in one scene before being killed off. They couldn't ignore it because of the angle they were going for but it's clear that the films reception had an affect on how they moved forward (if it was critically acclaimed and broke box office records in the same way that SF did, maybe we wouldn't even have gotten Spectre's return?).

    It does make me wonder how they'll carry on from SP if Craig returns. It's not a hugely popular film but it's also much harder to ignore/downplay than Quantum (the ending either works as an ending or a setup for a direct sequel, it'd be very hard to follow it up with a standalone film and still address it in a satisfying way imo). Personally I think SP was a great end to the Craig era and that they should just leave it at that, but the longer we wait the more I think him returning is a possibility, so we'll see.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited April 2017 Posts: 15,423
    Greene was fairly there as much as the rest of the past villains were in Spectre. Only M and Vesper Lynd received explicit mentions. And Moneypenny utters the word "Quantum" while referencing Mr. White.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    edited April 2017 Posts: 16,094
    Greene got a photo reference. Heck even Patrice did which I never noticed before.
    latest?cb=20160221061237
  • Posts: 37
    One final Craig film, tie up all the loose ends, and then reboot. Blofeld escapes, Bond comes out of retirement as a favour to M. Big spectacular chase picture, then widens to a save the world scenrio. You can take out the Madeline revenge angle, just have Bond saying "it didnt work out" etc etc. Give Dan, a big globe trotting spectacular to end his reign. I would love it to end with Bond and Blofeld battling on the mountains (where his parents died) giving closure to the themes of the Craig era.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited April 2017 Posts: 15,423
    phibes72 wrote: »
    One final Craig film, tie up all the loose ends, and then reboot. Blofeld escapes, Bond comes out of retirement as a favour to M. Big spectacular chase picture, then widens to a save the world scenrio. You can take out the Madeline revenge angle, just have Bond saying "it didnt work out" etc etc. Give Dan, a big globe trotting spectacular to end his reign. I would love it to end with Bond and Blofeld battling on the mountains (where his parents died) giving closure to the themes of the Craig era.
    It appears I wasn't the only one to think of such thing! I back up that idea! Heck, I'll back up the entire post as the idea for the next film! Great post, sir!
  • edited April 2017 Posts: 5,767
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Costa Mucho
    Posts: 41,990

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day

    Had Brosnan done FRWL, he would have done so the minute she was shot dead.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,566
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)
    But the film can just as easily take place in the same timeline. There's nothing that contradicts the idea.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    boldfinger wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.
  • Posts: 8,800
    My hope is sometime this summer we get the announcement for Bond 25 (Craig Returns and I have no idea who as director)

    but we will see..
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Costa Mucho
    Posts: 41,990
    Sounds like a reasonable expectation.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    Risico007 wrote: »
    My hope is sometime this summer we get the announcement for Bond 25 (Craig Returns and I have no idea who as director)

    but we will see..

    I don't know, there's something not right here. It's been 18 months and all we know officially is that Bond 25 is "in development". I won't be too surprised if it all gets scuppered over the summer and Daniel leaves. It wouldn't be the first time this sort of thing has happened to this franchise.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    I'm not saying I agree with the critical reception. I think enormously highly of QOS and there are obviously very strong supporters of SP as well. Nevertheless, QOS and SP have been at large received very differently from CR and SF.

    As for B25 having to follow up from where SP left off, I'm afraid we simply disagree on this point. What did SP tease that needs to be immediately followed on from? Blofeld is in prison. SPECTRE ostensibly is a headless snake now. Sure, they could drum up another SPECTRE story, break Blofeld out of prison or whatnot, but they don't need to. The threat is done with. Unlike QOS actually, where the threat was very much alive and out there and yet went completely ignored in SF. That's all I'm saying. There isn't anything SP started that can't be ignored for a film or two—or more.

    It could've be more obvious from the look Blofeld gives to Bond and Madeleine on that bridge that it's not over.
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I believe the original point was that SF moved on from QOS without addressing any of the characters, plot points, or story threads from its predecessor, therefore there's no reason to think B25 can't do the same with SP.

    As @bondjames states, the real question here is will they? SP fared roughly the same as QOS critically (slightly poorer according to Rotten Tomatoes) and both fell quite short of their immediate predecessors.

    Just looking at recent history, the clean slate approach of Skyfall makes sense, but if creative control remains in the hands of Craig and Mendes, we very well might see Spectre, Pt. Deux instead.

    Again, SP ended in a fashion that had to be followed up, and that basically teased another part outright, whereas QoS was the ending to the two part arc CR had set up; there wasn't any hanging thread to continue. It was the ending from which a new chapter could be written. We're still in that next chapter, which SF and SP started.

    I also think the reaction to SP has been blown out of the water, as too many people listen to American critics instead of looking internationally. There were an overwhelming number of places where SP outclassed SF, especially financially. I think QoS got hate for not being enough of a Bond film, and strangely SP got hate for being too much of a Bond film. Good luck finding the logic in that drivel.

    I do agree here I felt the end of spectre opened a new door for a different era of bond films.

    No, not what I meant at all. It's not a new or different era of films, it simply makes sense that a series of films that has always had continuity would especially still have it after a film ended the way SP did, opening up a door to explore an idea (Bond in retirement) we've never seen before. Hence what I said about the "chapter" not being over yet.
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Tanner referenced QOS in Skyfall. "We may have a few friends left in the CIA."

    I also find Bond's line, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be" as an implicit nod to Vesper.

    And Bond tells Eve to stop touching her ear in the casino. None of this means SF carried on from QOS plot-wise.

    Bond sniffed Rosa Klebb's shoe in Die Another Day, but that didn't make the film From Russia With Love: The Squeakquel. ;)

    It's the use of character and how they've visibly developed from the last ones. Bond's demeanor and mention of Vesper in SF tells us this is the same man that had to forgive and forget in the last film, and has had a while to deal with that stage in his life to be the man he is. The way he acts around Severine, very protective and understanding, is how he acted with Vesper when he felt her pain in CR and how he would have acted to her in QoS if she was alive and knew that she was being used by Quantum. We can see in the film that man that was that led to the man that is, and that casino scene is one of many that shows how the past events Bond has experienced with kept women has taught him how to deal with them effectively and compassionately. Without Vesper being used under his nose and causing him to see deeper behind things, who knows if Bond would've acted in such a caring way to Severine, who he otherwise might've been sharp towards to get the information she had. But when he sees her he sees Vesper again and because of that he knows how to handle the situation better. That much is quite obvious.

    Continuity isn't just about making random references to buzzwords from the last movies, we do know that, yes? It's about how we can perceive the characters growing from film to film.

    The Connery films had this same thing, just to a lesser degree of course. We know that the FRWL plot against the Brits is payback for Dr. No's death, but we don't need a big scene where it's announced and a big deal is made of it. The film just addresses it slightly and lets it play out, knowing the audience can fill in the blanks.

    We also see Bond change in how he approaches his work over the films. He starts off completely ignorant to SPECTRE, but over time he is able to spot their work swiftly. By the time YOLT unfolds he knows SPECTRE is behind the shuttle theft from years of learning their methods, which he states to Tanaka openly. Even before that, in TB Bond is outwardly aware of SPECTRE and mocks Largo and co. for their association with the organization. We know that because he survived SPECTRE in FRWL, Bond is pissed and is ready to give it all back to them.

    And from DN to YOLT there's moments where a character will make a reference to Bond's history with unraveling SPECTRE's plans, as Largo does, that tell you this is the same spy who performed all those actions. There's a connecting line to the films, but it's not an obvious or overt one and the films know that the people who know them will get it. But the films do show you the characters grow and learn from movie to movie, as the Craig era has done. The Craig era also connects the stories in a much grander scale and does dozens of callbacks every film to the others that the Connery films didn't, simply because they weren't aiming for that much continuity. But it's all there.
    QoS was referenced but it still feels like the black sheep of the Craig era. They ditched them for Spectre and downplayed any reference to it (Green gets the least attention of any Craig era villain in the various callbacks, did he even get a photo in the MI6 fun house set up?). Mr White came back but his character predates QoS anyway and even then, he was in one scene before being killed off. They couldn't ignore it because of the angle they were going for but it's clear that the films reception had an affect on how they moved forward (if it was critically acclaimed and broke box office records in the same way that SF did, maybe we wouldn't even have gotten Spectre's return?).

    It does make me wonder how they'll carry on from SP if Craig returns. It's not a hugely popular film but it's also much harder to ignore/downplay than Quantum (the ending either works as an ending or a setup for a direct sequel, it'd be very hard to follow it up with a standalone film and still address it in a satisfying way imo). Personally I think SP was a great end to the Craig era and that they should just leave it at that, but the longer we wait the more I think him returning is a possibility, so we'll see.

    @thelivingroyale, there's plenty of factors as to why that is. In comparison to Le Chiffre (who was ready to kill Vesper and had worked with White) and Silva (who wanted to kill M), Greene is pretty meaningless in his effect on Bond's life. That's not to say he's bad, as I like him, but the movie focused on the characters that really did Bond in, and Greene never really did. He is built up as a very meek villain who compensates with tantrums of anger, making him low on the danger level. Bond's real fight was with the likes of White who were present for Vesper's manipulation and knowingly let her act against him despite her wishes. Greene was a Quantum member, yes, but let's not pretend his effect on Bond was anything close to the others and warranted massive exploration.

    And even still, the other villains don't get much more of a mention beyond Greene, do they? They (Greene included) get a picture and get named by Blofeld out loud (as does Greene in the same scene, by the way). Le Chiffre and Silva aren't given special treatment. The most important asset was White, who was the bridge for Bond between Quantum and the bigger threat of SPECTRE.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 35,186
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    How about we just ignore Madeline and maybe SP as a whole next time around

    People really need to get an idea such as this out of their heads. There is no way an era that was built and run on continuity is just going to wipe the last film from its memory, especially when that film ended with Bond turning away from his old life. It's going to be addressed; it's unavoidable at this point.
    Why? QoS was ignored completely.

    How so? SP connected everything, with SF being a slight breather as GF was for the SPECTRE saga of the 60s. In SP, everything that'd happened to Bond since CR was addressed or was felt in impact. That's not a series of films forgetting each other. If EON wanted to forget QoS we'd have never seen White or Quantum again, for instance, much less have the newest film involve Bond protecting White's actual daughter. In many ways, SP is the sequel to QoS.

    For the people who want to use the "SF didn't follow up QoS" argument, what happened at the end of QoS that was as consequential as Bond leaving MI6 for a retired life? That's right.
    We were talking about the next film ignoring the last film, therefore I brought an example where the next film ignored the last film.
    SF completely ignores QoS. There is no continuity there. Any emotional development presented in QoS is completely disregarded by SF. SF repeats a lot of ideas from QoS, instead of continuing from there.
    Let´s not kid ourselves here, the thought that Eon wants to forget QoS is offering itself, because audiences associate negative reactions to things like supposed shaky cam and frantic editing with QoS. Mr White was as present in CR as he was in QoS. The references to Quantum in SP feel forced in to the extreme for the sake of making Spectre the link at all costs, and are as badly executed as the foster-brother angle feels like cheap soap opera stuff.
    If you want to call that an era that was built and run on continuity, and a series of films not forgetting each other, suit yourself.

    Forgive me if I can´t take you seriously on SP´s ending being significantly consequential, because the idea of Bond retiring is presented in a ridiculous manner, SP didn´t do anything throughout to give the audience the impression Bond might even a bit think about reitirement. SP´s ending truly feels as if nothing would be lost if the next film just ignored Bond and Madeline driving off in the DB5.
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.

    I couldn't agree more with this assessment. It's why I'm a bit optimistic with 'Bond 25' (especially if Mendes doesn't return), for surely there's no way it'll be worse than SP.

    I'm still not sure which direction they may take B25, but I doubt it'll be as "obvious" as some on here are making it out to be.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    phibes72 wrote: »
    One final Craig film, tie up all the loose ends, and then reboot. Blofeld escapes, Bond comes out of retirement as a favour to M. Big spectacular chase picture, then widens to a save the world scenrio. You can take out the Madeline revenge angle, just have Bond saying "it didnt work out" etc etc. Give Dan, a big globe trotting spectacular to end his reign. I would love it to end with Bond and Blofeld battling on the mountains (where his parents died) giving closure to the themes of the Craig era.

    I agree here
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Risico007 wrote: »
    My hope is sometime this summer we get the announcement for Bond 25 (Craig Returns and I have no idea who as director)

    but we will see..

    I don't know, there's something not right here. It's been 18 months and all we know officially is that Bond 25 is "in development". I won't be too surprised if it all gets scuppered over the summer and Daniel leaves. It wouldn't be the first time this sort of thing has happened to this franchise.

    I don't know I hope we get something this year I will be very disappointed if nothing still hasn't happened
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,090
    bondjames wrote: »
    The more I think about it, the more I feel SP is one of the most poorly executed films I've seen in recent times from a major franchise offering. As you note, the linkages they try to make are shockingly forced & prosaic, and nothing has any consequence or significance to the average viewer at all. It has the distinct stench of a film that was overpolluted by studio committee members trying to fix a diabolically conceived initial script and subsequently ending up with a final product that is trite, lacking soul & best forgotten imho. That is my honest assessment of this stinker. I sincerely hope they leave it be and move on.

    Succinctly put.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I want a retro old school Bond poster for B25.

    The new Star Wars poster is very good. Nice 70s vibe
  • Red_SnowRed_Snow Australia
    Posts: 2,199
    Getafix wrote: »
    I want a retro old school Bond poster for B25.

    The new Star Wars poster is very good. Nice 70s vibe

    They could have a retro poster for the IMAX release, as they did with the masked poster from SP.
  • DonnyDB5DonnyDB5 Buffalo, New York
    Posts: 1,754
    All the fan-art retro posters for the Craig era I've seen have been exceptionally well done.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,729
    Christopher Nolan needs to do the next bond film after Dunkirk his schedule will free up to my knowledge. He is also a bond fan and his fav bond film is OHMSS.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 35,186
    Christopher Nolan needs to do the next bond film after Dunkirk his schedule will free up to my knowledge. He is also a bond fan and his fav bond film is OHMSS.

    I'd say the closest we'd get to that is the base assault from 'Inception,' an obvious love letter to OHMSS.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    Christopher Nolan needs to do the next bond film after Dunkirk his schedule will free up to my knowledge. He is also a bond fan and his fav bond film is OHMSS.

    If Nolan does Bond, it'll probably be a Tom Hardy trilogy of films. Not saying that's likely, or what I'd want necessarily.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,094
    No thanks. Nolan would be Mendes cranked up to 11.
  • Posts: 10,688
    I don't want Nolan to do a Bond film either. I love his movies and I love Bond, but I just don't think they'd mesh well together.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,566
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I don't want Nolan to do a Bond film either. I love his movies and I love Bond, but I just don't think they'd mesh well together.
    That's pretty much where I stand on the matter.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    Urgh! The new title change is daunting, but appropriate. Are we absolutely sure that a strike would affect Bond? Is it possible they finish the script before the strike takes effect?
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