No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    @vzok Same here. I'd been championing Blofeld's return for years but the angle I always thought they should take was to reveal him
    as head of Quantum. I thought it'd be a bit contrived to have two evil organisations. But the film made it work, and it fits with Spectre's background in the books (members from the biggest criminal organisations).

    Of course in a perfect world Quantum never would've existed and they would have had the rights back for 2008 (I was certain at the time that White's organisation in CR was hinting at a return for Spectre, I thought they were being vague about it to buy themselves time to sort out the legal issues) but oh well. It worked out in the end.
    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    Not to harp on this, but it's a basic function of SP's story for Blofeld's claims of power to be laughable. We as the audience know he has no right taking credit for what happened to Bond, and that inflated ego of his serves to characterize him thusly.

    People take Blofeld at his word far, far too often, only examining the surface of what he says and taking it as truth. By doing so, any nuance or complexity in his character is missed entirely. He's a psychopathic egotist, you shouldn't trust him as far as you can throw him, and that goes doubly for what he says. Part of the reason Bond has such an amused reaction while listening to him drone on is because of just that. He knows Blofeld is full of shit and counts on his foot soldiers to do his bidding. His line to Madeleine, "I think we're supposed to be impressed" is his view of Blofeld, the man, in as succinct a fashion as he could muster. He's a guy who gets off on power, simply because he has lacked so little of it. When he takes credit for the past events Bond has faced, he's again protecting his own ego and making himself seem all powerful. We and Bond both know the truth, however, and we should laugh in his face as is intended.

    But I won't blabber on.

    I loved the film and for the most part think it's excellently written but I do think you're reading too much into things here. Bond even says "lets go and find the man who killed the people we love" or something similar to Madeline doesn't he? It's pretty clear that we're supposed to take Blofeld's word for it and accept him as the big bad behind the last few films: there'd be no stakes for the finale otherwise (there was Nine Eyes but that was sidelined for the personal Bond/Blofeld conflict).

    Personally I thought it was really cool how they tied things back to the beginning with CR/QoS, but Silva being a Spectre agent is one of my biggest issues with the film.

    There's nothing in SF to indicate he was working for Spectre (he even says that he "makes his own" missions). Part of his appeal is that he was this unhunged wildcard type, I don't know why the writers felt the need to retcon one of the greatest villains of all time into being another of Blofeld's lackeys. It also makes Blofeld look bad by comparison: Bond coming back into his life through his missions, and Blofeld taking the opportunity to have some fun and get some revenge in the proccess (Vesper)? I like that idea, I think it adds to him as a villain. But Blofeld going out of his way to hurt Bond (with no other benefit to himself) by bankrolling Silva's insane, convoluted revenge plan? Makes him seem less like an evil mastermind and more the petty jealous bitch that his detractors see him as. The brother angle was quite downplayed but he has no other motivation to kick off the events of SF, so this takes away from him as a character imo.

    Plus SF had already had enough of an impact to make its own mark on the continuity (M's death, MI6 being destroyed). There was no reason at all to tie Silva in with Spectre imo. I know some have said it makes sense as to how he got all his resources but I was perfectly happy with the idea that he managed to save enough for guns, mercenaries, etc, through his work as a hacker PMC.

    No, he doesn't. Bond quite clearly thinks Blofeld is full of it and claims too much to his name, because he does.

    As for the Silva connection, it explained the guy's funding well (the endless gunmen for a so-called independent operator) and also sensibly leads into SP. For the coming Nine Eyes program of C's to go through (which was months in the planning during SF's time period), Blofeld had to create fear or terrorism and a need for a surveillance initiative that would strive to solve it by making London and the rest of the world safer. Blofeld teams up with C and says he'll make sure that the fear of terrorism exists in London, and that the Brits will be forced to accept the surveillance program. In enters Silva, who needs just a little funding to go around London blowing things to kingdom come in search of the woman who leads the nation's intelligence service. By helping Silva on the side Blofeld is then contributing to acts like the MI6 explosion, courtroom massacre and underground raucous, events that cause fear and misery in the British from the top to the bottom. M's death is only small bananas in comparison.

    With Silva's terrorist-like acts perpetrated and the fear transmitted, Britain's wounds are fresh and C is able to present his Nine Eyes surveillance project to stop future Silva's from attacking worldwide, and likely used Silva as a prime example of why his plan was so direly needed in committee meetings. In fear, the government agrees to entertain his idea and plans a worldwide vote for its initiation during the SP timeline. In the end C got what he wants and Blofeld gets what he wants too, all with the promise of having the keys to the surveillance program down the line.

    In that way, I think the events of SF cleverly yet subtly feed into what the SPECTRE plot of SP is, showing why Blofeld would support Silva's mission to forward his own. I don't think that's reading too much into it, it's just thinking.
    How much did EON dish out to you this month.
    :D
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    @QuantumOrganization, as I said, it's called thinking and connecting dots. I won't be taken to task for using my head for its proper use, when others seem to want to hit theirs off brick walls.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    @vzok Same here. I'd been championing Blofeld's return for years but the angle I always thought they should take was to reveal him
    as head of Quantum. I thought it'd be a bit contrived to have two evil organisations. But the film made it work, and it fits with Spectre's background in the books (members from the biggest criminal organisations).

    Of course in a perfect world Quantum never would've existed and they would have had the rights back for 2008 (I was certain at the time that White's organisation in CR was hinting at a return for Spectre, I thought they were being vague about it to buy themselves time to sort out the legal issues) but oh well. It worked out in the end.
    I wish I were as optimistic as you. Your optimism is heartening, though. And I agree, the directions B25 might take are numerous.

    For me, the greatest fault of SP is how the film (really, how the heavy hand of the screenwriters) lazily "deus-ex-machinates" the groundwork of CR, QOS, and SF into this new villain and this new organization that was supposedly there pulling the strings all along. SP, Blofeld, and this new SPECTRE therefore assume credit for all that CR, QOS, and SF accomplished without gaining or earning any credit for themselves. Blofeld really does nothing that's particularly villainous apart from smirking and assuming credit for having killed M, Vesper, Ronson, and whomever else from the previous movies. Not only does this undermine SP's own story, but attributing everything to Waltz's Blofeld in such a lazy and unearned manner in fact tarnishes CR, QOS, and SF retroactively.

    You might look at CR, QOS, and SF as three players engaged in an intricate and balanced game of Twister—then SP comes barreling in and plows headlong into the game, knocking the other players off their colors and leaving everyone sprawled on the floor, concussed and bloodied and asking "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, you could look at the films as a building with CR the original foundation. QOS builds a seamless yet visually striking level upon that. SF comes along and builds a solid new wing, different but striking all the same. Then SP comes along and heaves the foundation, the first floor, and the new wing up on its papier-mâché shoulders, grunting, "Hey, everybody, look what I can do!" even as its knees are buckling beneath it.

    This is why I hope we leave SP's "progress" be for B25 and return to SPECTRE at a later date under a new Bond actor. I'd rather not see them struggle to build off their new papier-mâché foundation.

    Not to harp on this, but it's a basic function of SP's story for Blofeld's claims of power to be laughable. We as the audience know he has no right taking credit for what happened to Bond, and that inflated ego of his serves to characterize him thusly.

    People take Blofeld at his word far, far too often, only examining the surface of what he says and taking it as truth. By doing so, any nuance or complexity in his character is missed entirely. He's a psychopathic egotist, you shouldn't trust him as far as you can throw him, and that goes doubly for what he says. Part of the reason Bond has such an amused reaction while listening to him drone on is because of just that. He knows Blofeld is full of shit and counts on his foot soldiers to do his bidding. His line to Madeleine, "I think we're supposed to be impressed" is his view of Blofeld, the man, in as succinct a fashion as he could muster. He's a guy who gets off on power, simply because he has lacked so little of it. When he takes credit for the past events Bond has faced, he's again protecting his own ego and making himself seem all powerful. We and Bond both know the truth, however, and we should laugh in his face as is intended.

    But I won't blabber on.

    I loved the film and for the most part think it's excellently written but I do think you're reading too much into things here. Bond even says "lets go and find the man who killed the people we love" or something similar to Madeline doesn't he? It's pretty clear that we're supposed to take Blofeld's word for it and accept him as the big bad behind the last few films: there'd be no stakes for the finale otherwise (there was Nine Eyes but that was sidelined for the personal Bond/Blofeld conflict).

    Personally I thought it was really cool how they tied things back to the beginning with CR/QoS, but Silva being a Spectre agent is one of my biggest issues with the film.

    There's nothing in SF to indicate he was working for Spectre (he even says that he "makes his own" missions). Part of his appeal is that he was this unhunged wildcard type, I don't know why the writers felt the need to retcon one of the greatest villains of all time into being another of Blofeld's lackeys. It also makes Blofeld look bad by comparison: Bond coming back into his life through his missions, and Blofeld taking the opportunity to have some fun and get some revenge in the proccess (Vesper)? I like that idea, I think it adds to him as a villain. But Blofeld going out of his way to hurt Bond (with no other benefit to himself) by bankrolling Silva's insane, convoluted revenge plan? Makes him seem less like an evil mastermind and more the petty jealous bitch that his detractors see him as. The brother angle was quite downplayed but he has no other motivation to kick off the events of SF, so this takes away from him as a character imo.

    Plus SF had already had enough of an impact to make its own mark on the continuity (M's death, MI6 being destroyed). There was no reason at all to tie Silva in with Spectre imo. I know some have said it makes sense as to how he got all his resources but I was perfectly happy with the idea that he managed to save enough for guns, mercenaries, etc, through his work as a hacker PMC.

    No, he doesn't. Bond quite clearly thinks Blofeld is full of it and claims too much to his name, because he does.

    As for the Silva connection, it explained the guy's funding well (the endless gunmen for a so-called independent operator) and also sensibly leads into SP. For the coming Nine Eyes program of C's to go through (which was months in the planning during SF's time period), Blofeld had to create fear or terrorism and a need for a surveillance initiative that would strive to solve it by making London and the rest of the world safer. Blofeld teams up with C and says he'll make sure that the fear of terrorism exists in London, and that the Brits will be forced to accept the surveillance program. In enters Silva, who needs just a little funding to go around London blowing things to kingdom come in search of the woman who leads the nation's intelligence service. By helping Silva on the side Blofeld is then contributing to acts like the MI6 explosion, courtroom massacre and underground raucous, events that cause fear and misery in the British from the top to the bottom. M's death is only small bananas in comparison.

    With Silva's terrorist-like acts perpetrated and the fear transmitted, Britain's wounds are fresh and C is able to present his Nine Eyes surveillance project to stop future Silva's from attacking worldwide, and likely used Silva as a prime example of why his plan was so direly needed in committee meetings. In fear, the government agrees to entertain his idea and plans a worldwide vote for its initiation during the SP timeline. In the end C got what he wants and Blofeld gets what he wants too, all with the promise of having the keys to the surveillance program down the line.

    In that way, I think the events of SF cleverly yet subtly feed into what the SPECTRE plot of SP is, showing why Blofeld would support Silva's mission to forward his own. I don't think that's reading too much into it, it's just thinking.

    That's actually a really nice elucidation. I wish they had played that up more in the films.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    @QuantumOrganization, as I said, it's called thinking and connecting dots. I won't be taken to task for using my head for its proper use, when others seem to want to hit theirs off brick walls.

    I think what you are saying is well thought out you should have been around when P&W started trying to fashion the script after Logan had gone off the rails.

    What you have said has more thought than the finished product, that being said I think you just want this to be the case, we can all see something different and while we can't discount that you took this from it, it doesn't mean us that are supposedly hitting their heads against brick walls aren't valid in our opinion that the script and plot weren't strong enough to convey this.

    I and others just don't see this nuisance in the script and P&W as well as Mendes can talk about it after the product is out there, it comes across like they watched the film and went we should have really emphasised that much more effectively, we'll just talk about it in interviews so we can make this sound much more detailed than it really is.

    The whole thing stinks of a hatchet job even more than some claim QOS was, then QOS didn't end up taking an iconic element of the series and boiling it down to a childhood spat.

    I think SPECTRE is a travesty and it's unlikely I'll make my peace with it like some.
    I think if you weren't that fussed about the Craig era then you tended to enjoy it more, I know like some you've been a supporter of the Craig era but have also liked the film but my frustration boils down to up to this point I was happy with where it had gone and was going, little did I know after walking out of the cinema delighted after witnessing Skyfall that 3 years later I would be cursing it's follow up.

  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,566
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    We need bond 25 news real bad hopefully this summer or fall we will get something anything at this point
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 6,153
    I don't think linking the films and their featured antagonists was a bad idea, I actually like it a lot, but it was poorly done and clumsy, with the link between Bond and Blofeld being the story element that created a forced feel to the linkage.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    We need bond 25 news real bad hopefully this summer or fall we will get something anything at this point

    Me too, but unfortunately EON are focused on a war drama at the end of the year. We'll just have to sit back and hope they go back to Bond eventually.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Costa Mucho
    Posts: 41,990
    Who says EON cannot do two things simultaneously?
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Who says EON cannot do two things simultaneously?
    Big Brother Cuckoo.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Costa Mucho
    Posts: 41,990
    Did the BBC really say that?
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    edited April 2017 Posts: 3,126
    I meant MGM MGM is the main reason for the slow down not necessarily all EON
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Did the BBC really say that?
    Fake News Central did.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Costa Mucho
    Posts: 41,990
    Did the BBC really say that?
    Fake News Central did.

    Then it must be true.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Did the BBC really say that?
    Fake News Central did.

    Then it must be true.
    True True!
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I meant MGM MGM is the main reason for the slow down not necessarily all EON

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I meant MGM MGM is the main reason for the slow down not necessarily all EON

    I agree, EON are producing the war drama, then Bond is next on the schedule. Hopefully Daniel will have an answer by then.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I meant MGM MGM is the main reason for the slow down not necessarily all EON

    I agree, EON are producing the war drama, then Bond is next on the schedule. Hopefully Daniel will have an answer by then.

    Got to be and MGM better have a way to finance bond 25 by then instead of focusing on a tomb raider sequel that will make nothing
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I meant MGM MGM is the main reason for the slow down not necessarily all EON

    I agree, EON are producing the war drama, then Bond is next on the schedule. Hopefully Daniel will have an answer by then.

    Got to be and MGM better have a way to finance bond 25 by then instead of focusing on a tomb raider sequel that will make nothing

    Indeed.
  • Posts: 1,225
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Matt007 wrote: »
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
    I would have preferred if they hadn't, but yes, the execution was deplorable. We all know what they were trying to do. That part is obvious. It's just that some of us think it was done in the most inexcusable fashion worthy of condemnation, and that is why I personally hope they don't draw attention to it any more going forward, whether it be in B25 or any future entry.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 35,186
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
    I would have preferred if they hadn't, but yes, the execution was deplorable. We all know what they were trying to do. That part is obvious. It's just that some of us think it was done in the most inexcusable fashion worthy of condemnation, and that is why I personally hope they don't draw attention to it any more going forward, whether it be in B25 or any future entry.

    Succinctly put. Mirrors my feelings exactly.
  • Posts: 3,929
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
    I would have preferred if they hadn't, but yes, the execution was deplorable. We all know what they were trying to do. That part is obvious. It's just that some of us think it was done in the most inexcusable fashion worthy of condemnation, and that is why I personally hope they don't draw attention to it any more going forward, whether it be in B25 or any future entry.

    Do you think that EON realise that?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,316
    vzok wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
    I would have preferred if they hadn't, but yes, the execution was deplorable. We all know what they were trying to do. That part is obvious. It's just that some of us think it was done in the most inexcusable fashion worthy of condemnation, and that is why I personally hope they don't draw attention to it any more going forward, whether it be in B25 or any future entry.

    Do you think that EON realise that?

    That's an interesting question. No.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    vzok wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
    I would have preferred if they hadn't, but yes, the execution was deplorable. We all know what they were trying to do. That part is obvious. It's just that some of us think it was done in the most inexcusable fashion worthy of condemnation, and that is why I personally hope they don't draw attention to it any more going forward, whether it be in B25 or any future entry.

    Do you think that EON realise that?

    That's an interesting question. No.
    It's a very good question. They've proven to be quite adept at picking up on these things previously, so one can only hope. The longer the gap between SP and B25, the higher the chance that they will move on. That is my strong preference even if it means waiting an extra year.
  • Posts: 3,929
    bondjames wrote: »
    vzok wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    To be honest they could have retconned it well. Rogue one did a great job of reverse engineering a story into an existing framework. They did it very poorly though.
    I would have preferred if they hadn't, but yes, the execution was deplorable. We all know what they were trying to do. That part is obvious. It's just that some of us think it was done in the most inexcusable fashion worthy of condemnation, and that is why I personally hope they don't draw attention to it any more going forward, whether it be in B25 or any future entry.

    Do you think that EON realise that?

    That's an interesting question. No.
    It's a very good question. They've proven to be quite adept at picking up on these things previously, so one can only hope. The longer the gap between SP and B25, the higher the chance that they will move on. That is my strong preference even if it means waiting an extra year.

    Here's hoping you are right.

    This is also the problem with having a story arc. Fine in a TV series. Not fine in a movie series where 5 movies can stretch out over 15 years.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,094
    Everyone is too cynical and pessimistic these days. Have some optimism people. The doom and gloom train is boring.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    Murdock wrote: »
    Everyone is too cynical and pessimistic these days. Have some optimism people. The doom and gloom train is boring.

    Haven't you heard, @Murdock? EON are hacks, and McClory might as well have had the license for Bond films. I am so close to giving up on this franchise!!!

    *stomps feet and walks out door*
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,094
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I expect that kind of whining and tantrum throwing from angry trekkies. Not intelligent Bond fans. ;)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,416
    Murdock wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I expect that kind of whining and tantrum throwing from angry trekkies. Not intelligent Bond fans. ;)

    Unfortunately there are Bond fans like that out there.
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