No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • Posts: 11,119
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Where some see a "very serious relationship," all I see is yet another shoehorned love angle for no good reason at all; she goes from hating Bond to loving him at an incredibly unrealistic rate. Hell, he even leaves her on the streets with no qualms during the London finale - offers no protection or assistance, doesn't suggest she hide out as he goes to do battle with some more bad guys. He sure loves her, alright! To me, I just don't see the connection that Bond and Vesper had, nor was there any scene in particular that really clicked as them having such a strong connection, like the post-stairwell fight/shower scene in CR. All SP offers is a lot of bitterness thrown towards Bond, until he fights a guy on a train and they have sex after and immediately fall in love somehow, because why not?

    Seeing Bond and Madeleine fight and break up is just about the last thing I need to see from the series. And if it was something they did: why bring her back just for them to argue, break up, and then she disappears? It's the equivalent of not having her return at all, and not only that, but it would cut down on running time and save the movie from possibly being too bloated with unnecessary scenes/information.

    The oddest statement of all, though: not bringing Madeleine back displays a lack of creativity? In what way, exactly? If you ask me, introducing a second love interest so soon after Vesper (which took Bond two whole films to get through/over) is what screams "lack of creativity."

    I see neither a 'serious' relationship, nor a shoehorned love angle. There is nothing to suggest Bond is in love with her (he's not, I think that's clear) but she does represent a way out. He represents a way out for her also, but there's a certain infatuation there, too on her part. The 'relationship', and that is a complex term, is the result of a pressure cooker scenario. I often wonder (I don't mean you) how many people on here have experienced relationships with women, because reading comments on here you would think that things progress in a very regimented, linear (boring as fuck) fashion - lets have a drink, then maybe dinner, perhaps a kiss... The Bond/Swann relationship works absolutely fine for me and is completely believable. These are extraordinary circumstances. Sometimes shit happens, things move quickly. There's more to be had from it.

    Well said @RC7. Madeleine isn't Vesper. And that wasn't Mendes intention, to create a Vesper 2.0.

    You know, I am gay. I never HAD a normal relationship. All these wonderful love situations between Bond and a girl might happen in a linear fashion. But trust me, the love relationship between Madeleine and James looks entirely believable when compared with my 'love life'. Hmm, it could actually be great stuff for a movie :-o.
  • Posts: 4,622
    They reshot the Bond and Moneypenny meeting scene in Bond's Chelsea flat. Bond was originally supposed to be with in a robe and there were more lines for the characters to interact with... Not to mention, a woman's voice coming from Bond's bedroom which leads Moneypenny to leave.
    Right, it originally read like a riff on M&MP's unannounced visit to Bond's flat in LALD.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    Milovy wrote: »
    @Milovy that's true, but surely EON know that the 2 most successful Craig films are CR and SF, who are devoid of any continuity (CR being the first film in the new timeline, and SF not mentioning anything of CR/QOS and is a standalone).
    I think you might be giving EON too much credit. These are the people who looked at the success of CR and decided that the follow-up should be Bond covered in blood and dirt in an endless chase sequence, and then looked at the success of SF and decided that the follow-up should be filled with internal politics at MI6 and references to Bond's childhood. I don't think they've demonstrated much awareness of why certain films were well-received or not.

    @Milovy I'm thinking you have no idea of how a film is made, especially during the writers strike (QOS), and then, no matter what the haters say about SP, no one goes out and purposefully makes a film they think ppl will hate-on.

    It's just the nature of the biz.

    And @Creasy47, shoe-horned could also be applied to the Nolan Batman Trilogy. Outside of Marvel/Disney, no one can plan the next film until the previous film hits audiences-- that includes DEADPOOL (They are now planning the sequel, as other franchises do, based on the success of the first film).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    @Birdleson, not really, old chap, just saying, the highly regarded BM Trilogy was shoe horned coz no one, outside of Marvel/Disney do the storyboarding for future films. No one.

    Put the cyanide pill away, old man.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    Tuulia wrote: »
    Why do so many people want Madeleine to die, hasn't that stuff been done too much already? It's not necessary for Bond's women to always die, you know. It's an over-used cliche in both Bond films and in general. And another revenge story? Please gawd no.
    Szonana wrote: »
    It's never gonna be "all" anyway, not even "most". Neither men nor women. A lot of people don't give a crap about Bond whoever the actor is. And whoever the actor is people will never agree on him anyway. I also disagree that all or most women would appreciate a Bond actor's looks above anything else, or that all or most women would have similar ideas about what counts as good looks.

    I guess i do have to admit i went a little too hyperbolic, whose I apologize.

    I hate when Pierce detractors go the hyperbolic way to criticize him and now i did so to go in his defense. Its just sometimes i feel like its me against the world lol.
    but yes ofcourse good looking is different to every woman and i guess you are right many won't care about Bond no matter who is cast.


    Ohh and i do understand there is a big difference between attractive and good looking, actually there are women who find the veryd good looking men unattractive example my mom.
    Who never really liked Brad Pitt that much who is considered one of the most beat men of all time she likes them good looking but not perfect looking if you know what i mean.

    So as you can see I understand the difference but i do like some very good looking men including Pierce and Brad Pitt but with time ive found Criag attractive as well. He does have a special something.

    No worries. And yes, I know what you mean. I never got what was so special about Brad Pitt, either btw, so I understand your mum. :)

    I don't want another main Bond girl death either, its too soon after Vesper and yes Craig already had his revenge film so they should get rid off her differently maybe just explain in the mission briefering why the broke up and that's it.
    Give a small explanation of Madeline to the people didn't see Spectre and move on with a regular mission.

    Actually it be cool if Craig had one proper mission film to say goodbye it would mean the character From Dr No-Die Another day is back. The arc is closed and Craig is the ideal guy to say we are back to the old days i just presented you before how the legened started.

    As much as we never had a real timeline i just can't stop thinking that from Casino Royale to Spectre was the prequel to the latter films. A small series within the series.

  • Posts: 676
    peter wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    I think you might be giving EON too much credit. These are the people who looked at the success of CR and decided that the follow-up should be Bond covered in blood and dirt in an endless chase sequence, and then looked at the success of SF and decided that the follow-up should be filled with internal politics at MI6 and references to Bond's childhood. I don't think they've demonstrated much awareness of why certain films were well-received or not.

    @Milovy I'm thinking you have no idea of how a film is made, especially during the writers strike (QOS), and then, no matter what the haters say about SP, no one goes out and purposefully makes a film they think ppl will hate-on.

    It's just the nature of the biz.

    And @Creasy47, shoe-horned could also be applied to the Nolan Batman Trilogy. Outside of Marvel/Disney, no one can plan the next film until the previous film hits audiences-- that includes DEADPOOL (They are now planning the sequel, as other franchises do, based on the success of the first film).
    Of course they don't make a film they think people will hate on. Where did I say that? I was saying that each Bond film, in various ways, is a reaction to the perceived successes or failures of the previous film. CR is a reaction to DAD; QoS is a reaction to CR; SF is a reaction to QoS; SP is a reaction to SF. It only makes sense that the producers would look at the previous film(s) and continue what worked, drop what didn't, and add new elements in an attempt to give audiences what they want. But that doesn't mean the producers always get it right.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited August 2016 Posts: 12,459
    Ok, basically I agree with @RC7 and @thelivingroyale. For sure, though, I don't want Madeline featured but equally or even more strongly I don't want her killed off. Just move on, with great storytelling - and yes, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I think the story has to pick up from and carry on where Spectre ends. Definitely. That could be done in so many ways and done well.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,955
    A way to move on from Madeline and the DB5.
    Tanner - "What happened?"
    Bond - "Madeline accidentally ejected herself from the DB5 as we headed down to that cottage in Dorset on the M3."
    Tanner - "My lord James, so sorry."
    Bond - "Oh she's not dead. Apparently she'll never walk again though."
    Tanner - "And the DB5?"
    Bond - "Got hit by a white van on the hard shoulder. Complete write off. Guy was trying to adjust his sat nav or something."

    Bye bye Madeline (without killing her)
    Bye bye DB5
    Everyone's a winner. Lovely jubbly.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Maybe bond just gets bored with his retirement and comes back. Kind of like Mathis in QoS.
  • Matt007 wrote: »
    Maybe bond just gets bored with his retirement and comes back. Kind of like Mathis in QoS.

    ...and then Mathis comes back, hitting Bond on the head. "Thanks for me leaving me in the dumpster! As you can see I wasn't dead yet!"

    (end non-serious suggestion)

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    peter wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    @Milovy that's true, but surely EON know that the 2 most successful Craig films are CR and SF, who are devoid of any continuity (CR being the first film in the new timeline, and SF not mentioning anything of CR/QOS and is a standalone).
    I think you might be giving EON too much credit. These are the people who looked at the success of CR and decided that the follow-up should be Bond covered in blood and dirt in an endless chase sequence, and then looked at the success of SF and decided that the follow-up should be filled with internal politics at MI6 and references to Bond's childhood. I don't think they've demonstrated much awareness of why certain films were well-received or not.

    @Milovy I'm thinking you have no idea of how a film is made, especially during the writers strike (QOS), and then, no matter what the haters say about SP, no one goes out and purposefully makes a film they think ppl will hate-on.

    It's just the nature of the biz.

    Is the nature of the 'biz' to leave a bloke to write a script unsupervised and then only check it at the 11th hour at which point you realise it's shit so you get a couple of cowboys in to do a botch job to fix it 5 minutes before you start filming?

    Of course EON didn't go out to make a shit film but nor did they seem to put many checks and balances in place to stop it turning out shit either.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    @thewizardofice, relax, please. Film is a collaborative medium. On every project there are a million challenges faced from pre to post production.

    Not knowing what was going on inside the heads of the producers during SPECTRE, I'll just guess that they thought they had hired well (Mendes and Logan), and didn't need to babysit them during the development of the script.

    And yes, I'm sure there were meetings re: the script before Logan sat down to write, but who knows when he came up with some of his zany ideas (i.e. Blofeld as a warlord). He could have started to add these bits in during the writing process, thinking they were brilliant ideas.

    It was obvious that the script delivered was not the script Babs and company had green lit.

    In the end, Wizard, if you can produce a better film than SPECTRE, I'll be first in line to see it.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited August 2016 Posts: 15,696
    Anyone that thinks Bond 25 wouldn't continue on from SP is nearing nutso territory. All the Craig films are connected, and leaving these threads behind is narrative blasphemy.

    On a hardcore Bond forum like this, you will find people who agree with you. In terms of the general audience, who makes up for 99% of the population which goes to see Bond films, you will find you are very much alone if you want more continuity. Only Bond fans care for that. In the last 54 years the general audience has proven time and time again they will lap up any kind of Bond films even if continuity is non-existent.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,574
    Something my friends and family said about QOS was that they didn't understand what was going on with the man in the boot of the car, because none of them had given much thought to CR over the previous two years.
  • Posts: 19,339
    That's the problem with QOS compared to SF and SP....it's difficult to be a 'stand alone' film,as the others can.
  • Posts: 4,325
    NicNac wrote: »
    Something my friends and family said about QOS was that they didn't understand what was going on with the man in the boot of the car, because none of them had given much thought to CR over the previous two years.

    To be fair it's not that complex. A lot of Bond teasers/PTS start in the middle of something, a mini-adventure if you will - eg. Goldfinger, Thunderball, Spectre, - all you need to know is that the guy in the boot is a bad guy, why else would Bond have him in the boot whilst being chased by guntoting people in cars? Then you learn more about him in the dialogue scene with M whilst he's hooked up to an IV - he's part of a shadowy organisation that has people 'everywhere' - seems pretty easy to follow to me. You don't need to know anything from CR to follow that, QoS never felt like a proper sequel to me, it feels more standalone, eg. new villain and new problem.
  • Posts: 4,405
    Though he distanced himself from Bond 25, Mendes has attached himself to a new adaptation of James and the Giant Peach

    http://deadline.com/2016/08/sam-mendes-james-and-the-giant-peach-movie-live-action-disney-1201809068/
    sam-mendes.jpg?w=446&h=299&crop=1

    The big reason I would like Mendes to return is for him to complete his trilogy. Just as much as Spectre closes Craig's arc, there are a still a lot of dangling threads.

    Also if EON could get Mendes back, Craig would inevitably return.

    Should we take this news to be further confirmation that Craig is out?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    peter wrote: »
    @thewizardofice, relax, please. Film is a collaborative medium. On every project there are a million challenges faced from pre to post production.

    Not knowing what was going on inside the heads of the producers during SPECTRE, I'll just guess that they thought they had hired well (Mendes and Logan), and didn't need to babysit them during the development of the script.

    And yes, I'm sure there were meetings re: the script before Logan sat down to write, but who knows when he came up with some of his zany ideas (i.e. Blofeld as a warlord). He could have started to add these bits in during the writing process, thinking they were brilliant ideas.

    It was obvious that the script delivered was not the script Babs and company had green lit.

    I always thought the Bonds were even more collaborative than most with the producers steering the writing firmly where they wanted it to go so I'm not in the camp that can absolve EON from much of the blame here.

    Either they took no interest and let Logan do what he wanted which is dereliction of duty or they were hands on and the final script for SP is exactly what they wanted in which case they are incompetent.

    peter wrote: »
    In the end, Wizard, if you can produce a better film than SPECTRE, I'll be first in line to see it.

    If you want to give me a cheque for $250m I'll happily have a bash. In case you all want to crowdsource a Wizard produced Bond here's a few nuggets I can reveal:

    1. No P&W.
    2. No Thomas Newman.
    3. No Rory Kinnear.
    4. No pissing on Fleming's characters by having Bond's nemesis turn out to be his stepbrother.
    5. BJ Worth brought out of retirement to coordinate some actual stunts (remember those? Used to be big in the 80s).
    6. A decent hand drawn poster.
    7. I sure as f**k wouldn't blow up half the budget on a pointless and underwhelming explosion.

  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,721
    With every Bond era we have trends and I think with the Craig era there are things we have to accept:

    Forced super continuity.
    Personal stories.
    Mi6 Scooby gang. (Five Go Mad in Whitehall)
    Scores not incorporating theme song.
    Posters that look like fashion catalogues.

    Small price to pay for some great films - and Spectre ;-)

  • Posts: 19,339
    With every Bond era we have trends and I think with the Craig era there are things we have to accept:

    Forced super continuity.
    Personal stories.
    Mi6 Scooby gang. (Five Go Mad in Whitehall)
    Scores not incorporating theme song.
    Posters that look like fashion catalogues.

    Small price to pay for some great films - and Spectre ;-)

    Hahaha I seriously laughed out loud with that line...inspired,and I must admit I did think the same thing when I watched it !
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    Seriously dark times when we start making unjustified comparisons between Bond and Scooby-Doo.
  • Posts: 4,325
    jake24 wrote: »
    Seriously dark times when we start making unjustified comparisons between Bond and Scooby-Doo.

    What else is there to do whilst we wait for a sliver of info on Bond 25?
  • Posts: 623
    Mi6 Scooby gang. (Five Go Mad in Whitehall)

    I laughed out loud!
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Though he distanced himself from Bond 25, Mendes has attached himself to a new adaptation of James and the Giant Peach

    http://deadline.com/2016/08/sam-mendes-james-and-the-giant-peach-movie-live-action-disney-1201809068/
    sam-mendes.jpg?w=446&h=299&crop=1

    The big reason I would like Mendes to return is for him to complete his trilogy. Just as much as Spectre closes Craig's arc, there are a still a lot of dangling threads.

    Also if EON could get Mendes back, Craig would inevitably return.

    Should we take this news to be further confirmation that Craig is out?

    I don't think Craig returning lives or dies on Mendes not being there to direct, I might be wrong but I get the feeling that their experience on SP wasn't like the one on SF.

    I think both of them know SP wasn't the film that they wanted to make and had to make do with a rush job, Mendes wanted something with Mallory being the traitor and couldn't have it.

    Craig I believe was willing to do something traditional but somehow though the foster brother angle was great idea and Mendes also got seduced by P&W most catastrophic drop of the ball of the series.

    The fact both thought this was a good idea is plenty good reason that they are both gone.

    That being said if they can formulate a proper script and one that doesn't need a drastic change at the last minute and DC returns to end his era with some class I'll accept him back no problem

    Rewrites and tweaks are fine but in the last stages that script had much more than a polish it was completely overhauled and the fact they gave the job of saving it to the two guys who normally have their work polished just shows a huge oversight.

    They should never step near another Bond script ever again and I think that was the intention till the Logan script went off the cliff.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Get a good clear story in place years in advance and then built a classy screenplay around it
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Milovy wrote: »
    Of course they don't make a film they think people will hate on. Where did I say that? I was saying that each Bond film, in various ways, is a reaction to the perceived successes or failures of the previous film. CR is a reaction to DAD; QoS is a reaction to CR; SF is a reaction to QoS; SP is a reaction to SF. It only makes sense that the producers would look at the previous film(s) and continue what worked, drop what didn't, and add new elements in an attempt to give audiences what they want. But that doesn't mean the producers always get it right.
    I agree with you, and the evidence supports this. It's also one of the reasons why I believe they won't be champing at the bit to continue directly with the SP storyline for B25. Sure, many may have liked SP, but many didn't as well. I think they are in a similar position to after QoS again. If the next one comes out in 2019, 4 years will have passed again, and this will give them an enticing opportunity either for a Craig standalone sendoff (as the fully developed spy that we all know and love) or a clean break with a new actor and premise/concept.

    If B25 comes out in 2018, then there is a higher chance that elements of SP will be incorporated into the story, but I don't believe we'll see Madeline again.

    @thelivingroyale, I like your ideas for B25 above. If they must bring Blofeld back, try something new with him as you suggest. I'd even prefer him to be mentioned but not seen in B25.
  • Posts: 1,965
    YOLT adaptation with instead of Kissy you put in Madeline. Wonder if they could make that work. Madeline gets pregnant at the end just like Kissy did.
  • Posts: 4,325
    And then Bond loses his memory and becomes Jason Bour ... Michael Fassbender - it only occured to me now that Bourne is basically Bond in TMWTGG
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited August 2016 Posts: 4,116
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    YOLT adaptation with instead of Kissy you put in Madeline. Wonder if they could make that work. Madeline gets pregnant at the end just like Kissy did.

    I was shot down but I still like the idea of Swann as suicidal and the YOLT angle. I mean Swann being suicidal is or can be consistent with her psychological profile plus becomes less revenge for Bond and more driven by guilt . Most of us are not completely convinced Bond even loved Swann anyway.

    Although I really don't want another revenge plot I admit I would love to see an adaption of YOLT.

    If that would work or sell tickets I dunno.

    And please not there is a higher prevalence of mood disorders in psychiatrists than another medical speciality.

  • walter1985walter1985 Rotterdam
    Posts: 91
    I would love to see Craig getting bored and later angry at the super shopping centre, with a screaming little boy next to him, waiting on Madeleine. it appears the boy isn't James' son, but James is giving it a thought. on the way home - driving a boring car - total silence, very painful and all. at home the two eat in complete silence. then M calls. 'Blofeld escaped, we need you.' Bond says to Madeleine: 'you don't have to stay awake.' and BAM, the title song begins. (would love love love to see the gun barrel sequence and then... the mall!)
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