Would you accept a black Bond?

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  • Posts: 1,548
    what about a gay Black Bond to really shake things up? Just kiddin!!
  • timmer wrote:
    This could actually work in theory.Personally I don't like the choice, but that's just preference.
    Neither do I, mostly because I'm not sure he can appear coldly menacing, etc.

    But I was looking for someone who shows that even Black/White is not such a clear line "not to be crossed" as many seems to think. Wentworth Miller can be lit and photographied to appear "white", but with other choices of lighting the fact he's from a mixed race could be far more explicit I'm sure.

    I tried a bit to look for a black/mixed-race "character" who was played by a white man, well I found Alexandre Dumas (author of the Three Musketers) who was played by Gerard Depardieu here in France. Well, he was a true person, not a character, so it's a bit different, and IMO the very little controversy about it that happened is a bit more understandable.

    But well, right now, a movie is made with a black actor as the Human Torch, we'll see if that will be a commercial failure, or if the only effect will be some tasteless jokes about the color of his skin and being burned... Idris Elba (him again !) was cast in Thor as Heimdall while Marvel's Asgard is 100% white in my memory, and I don't remember it caused much a stir. Gee, a black bouncer at the door of a place full of white people, you can easily find cliches everywhere when you want to troll about the race issue ! :)

    So slowly we're getting closer to this happening to a major character... Hm, oh wait, what about Wild Wild West ?! Eh, the poor result may have more influence on the possibility of casting black actors as "white" heroes, than all the sociological analysis one can do about it !

    Also, note that Peter Jackson just invented a female hero in the adaptation of a book very well known to have none. I don't think the Desolation of Smaug was a commercial failure, despite purists calling this a travesty of Tolkien's work.

  • Posts: 14,943
    Of course the line is never clear: some mixed races can look more White or Black and a man like Tom Jones can look black sometimes, or having African or West Indies blood, while he is all Welsh.

    That said, Will Smith in Wild Wild West was terrible casting, at least terribly anachronistic: a Black man in segregationist America, right after the Civil War, wouldn't have been so emancipated.
  • I'm not necessarily saying I actively WANT Bond to be black - but if one day when they are looking for a successor and there's a fella out there with the right chops - I don't think his being black should be a problem. I'd see the movie and as a fan - would give the guy a chance.

    And yes - part of me would applaud the decision - simply because it would mean that the makers of the films have an open-minded attitude.

    I am very well aware that such a decision would be fiercely debated and controversial in some circles - but I'd have a lot of respect for the powers that be - in that they would be ready to whether that storm in order to give the right guy the job.

    It wouldn't ruin the previous films for me - and I'd have no problem to continue suspending my disbelief that it's the supposed to be the same guy. As I've said time and time again - these are only movies. Entertainment.

    If it feels right, they should do it.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 4,622
    As an aside. I had no idea that Wentworth Miller was gay, when I watched Prison Break, one of the great spyfy TV shows of the last decade IMO. Miller was great as the lead. He had the best looking girlfriend on the show too.
    My gaydar it seems has never been very well tuned. eg took me years to realize that Elton John was gay, and that wasn't until I read it somewhere. His persona just seemed to work with the music. Show biz and all that.....
    Gay really is a non-issue, as I don't think its always terribly obvious unless people want to really put it out there.
    Thus gay actor as Bond is perfectly acceptable, as long as he can play Bond as the raging hetero that he is.

    Re black Bond. As Dimi said there will never be a need. There is no shortage of actors with the look that Fleming put out there.
    Real work is finding one that can combine both the needed menace and charm with the right look, as Sean did so well - and Laz too - and Dalts too.
  • XXXXXX Banned
    edited March 2014 Posts: 132
    RC7 wrote:
    I personally don't think this should drift into Race vs. Disability territory. That is a very, very bad idea.
    Agreement, shame on you @NicNac, timmer are you interested in men?
  • Posts: 8
    No no no. Nothing against any race. But changing an icon after so many years as such would just be confusing. Example: BATMAN movies Harvey Dent in the first Batman was black, and in the 3rd Was white played by Tommy Lee Jones. I at the time very young recognized it and kept asking why? I recently watched both movies with a son of a friend, he is 5 years old, and he picked it up right away asking so many questions and he said people can not just change colors. (Well MJ did but beyond the point.) James Bond is based off the Flemming novels, if it wasn't for them there would be no Bond, and Flemming's bond was Caucasian. To do this you would have to do something as kill off Bond, bring in a Black actor and have M16 give the 007 number to him changing up the series. Even having Moneypenny being black know itches me a bit. I understand M's changing as everyone in charge is dedicated the letter, and so on with Q. So your saying if I would become M's secretary I would be known as Moneypenny because that's the positions title?

    " Do you expect me to change my skin Goldfinger?"
    " No I expect you to be White."
  • Posts: 1,595
    I'm hoping the next Bond is a girl, tbh.
  • XXXXXX Banned
    Posts: 132
    No, that's off topic make your own board for that, I think.
    I'm hoping the next Bond is a girl, tbh.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited March 2014 Posts: 5,080
    XXX wrote:
    No, that's off topic make your own board for that, I think.
    I'm hoping the next Bond is a girl, tbh.

    Sarcasm, much?

    To quote Bond in DAF- "I sincerely hope so"
  • Posts: 7,653
    If you cannot be agianst a black 007 because you are racist I find that the discussion should be open to a 007 not caucasian, hetrosexual and male.

    Then all should be game, I find the notion of a black 007 racist, cause there are so many races that could easily paly Bond, James Bond.

    But to be honest I would not like a Tibetan, Hawaian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian or native-American of South or North America, African of the large variety of peoples on that continent, Asian, female etc. to play a Bond.

    As I consider James Bond to be a white caucasian, hetrosexual, male character as written by Ian Fleming and taken to cinema by Broccoli & Saltzman. Their choices for actor has been great and I do believe they never had any intention of hiring anybody of colour for the lead character. Because they stayed on course with Flemings character even if the stories did leave Flemings written grounds, even if they stayed quite true to Flemings OTT choice of villians and plots.

    The idea that the content of a titlesong does give a character his ultimate colour of skin is beyond ridicolous and grasping at straws, discussion wise.

    Should there be equality, sure there should be but as long as a large portion of people in the US, land of the freedom and democracy, are quite opposed to a black president I foresee some struggles ahead not involving any coloured 007. Females not earning the same money as their male "equals", Russians generally seen as criminals, including all Eastern Europeans (good soundbite for elections), Africans as lazy and not capable of taking care of their countries, etc. I foresee we have a long way to go to equality.

    Untill that time I see no need for a coloured 007, only to have some enlightened people trying to obtain the moral high ground.
    There is much work to be done before James Bond should be brought down to the level of people that generally do not like his being in existance at all. Not even a black 007 would suit them.
    I like James Bond dinosaur and women unfriendly to exist in my lifetime, he gives me some mighty un-PC pleasure. And I am sure a lot of his attraction is just that for quite a lot of people.

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,574
    ChickenStu wrote:
    NicNac wrote:
    @ChickenStu, what are your thoughts on a disabled Bond? I ask because I have a disabled son, and I think they should get opportunities as well. Do you agree a disabled Bond would be a good idea....assuming the actor was a good one?

    Not being controversial here, simply seeing your take on equal opportunities and the fact these are only movies when all's said and done...

    What do you think I think?

    And why are we straying from the discussion?

    This thread is about whether we would accept a black guy in the part. Which yes, I would. If you seriously want to put that question out there, start a thread for it.

    That way, I can choose whether I want to answer it or not without feeling like someone is leading me down a dark path...

    For someone who isn't trying to be controversial, you sure can ask a loaded question NicNac.
    Yes and I withdraw the question because it was loaded and maybe unfair, but my point was merely that we tend to get this 'Should Bond be black', 'Should Dr Who be a woman' type of article over and over again in the media. It becomes tiresome because it's some lazy journalist digging up old articles and trying to be controversial.

    And therefore, where does it end? What about disabled people, overweight people, old people, young people...at the end of the day the right actor gets cast for any role, regardless of colour, sexuality, age etc.

    So, should Bond be a black guy? In the 21st Century Fleming is irrelevant and his description of Bond plays no part in the 'Bond in the movies' world. There is no sense to Bond's universe, no continuity. So Bond could be black next time round, of course he could. But not for the sake of it. Only an actor who can move the franchise forward, re-invent and reinvigorate to series, can have the part..regardless of colour.

  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,964
    Wow this old chestnut. Again.
    Aren't we tired of going over this same ground again and again? Does it get us anywhere?
    I have no issue with anyone's skin colour. Caucasian Bond, Asian Bond, Black Bond et all. But I do wonder why. To paraphrase Elliot Carver in TND, the key to a great story is, not what, who or when. But why?
    Why would we need to change the look of Bond? By changing his skin colour or even sex will it make the character better? Does it give Bond depth and a greater appeal, by making him black?
    It doesn't bother me enough to lose sleep over it. But I wonder why we even discuss it. Even hypothetically, what will it achieve?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    SaintMark wrote:
    I like James Bond dinosaur and women unfriendly to exist in my lifetime, he gives me some mighty un-PC pleasure. And I am sure a lot of his attraction is just that for quite a lot of people.

    James Bond has always moved with the times, so I wouldn't call the 21st century Bond, particularly un-PC. For the last decade or so one would have to look to British figures such as Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Littlejohn for example of being 'un-PC', and I for one would not lump Bond in with these buffoons. Bond strikes me as apolitical, a man who does what he does for Queen and country.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,737
    I want Bond to be played by CGI. Then he could actually BE Hoagy Carmichael.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Or a young Connery.
  • OK. This REALLY IS my last word on the matter. Once I've made this post I am going to un-bookmark the thread.

    Like I've said countless times I would have no problem with a black actor playing the role - as long as it's not stunt casting and the fellow can really bring something to the part.

    For those who've said they'll disown the movies if this ever happens one day - I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face - and take movies far too seriously.

    He's been Scottish, Australian, English, Welsh, Irish and English again. He's had black hair, brown hair, blonde hair and has varied in height and weight. These movies have only ever had a slight continuity element when it serves the story but other than that - it's never been rigidly upheld. So with all that in mind - who really gives a DAMN if the actor is black?

    There is nothing else I can say on the matter really. With that, I am bowing out and leaving you to it. Have a nice day everyone.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited March 2014 Posts: 18,021
    Benny wrote:
    Wow this old chestnut. Again.
    Aren't we tired of going over this same ground again and again? Does it get us anywhere?
    I have no issue with anyone's skin colour. Caucasian Bond, Asian Bond, Black Bond et all. But I do wonder why. To paraphrase Elliot Carver in TND, the key to a great story is, not what, who or when. But why?
    Why would we need to change the look of Bond? By changing his skin colour or even sex will it make the character better? Does it give Bond depth and a greater appeal, by making him black?
    It doesn't bother me enough to lose sleep over it. But I wonder why we even discuss it. Even hypothetically, what will it achieve?

    Although it undoubtedly is an old chestnut by this stage of the game (from the 1990s on at least) I still think that as the other two threads that exist on it are both closed that a new thread does no harm. It is a legitimate topic s I said above. That side, you ask what will it achieve to talk about the hypothetical case of a black James Bond. To my mind there re several things it either may or will not potentially achieve. I will briefly summarise these in point form below:

    1. It will allow a sort of straw poll into who is dead against the idea (the conservative traditionalists, the Fleming purists etc.) and those of more progressive views who would allow of the idea becoming flesh. From this, the validity of the concept can be determined from the "Yea" or "Nay" of the cross-section of members on this thread who participate therein, assuming that this is the biggest James Bond site on the web (and it is).

    2. It is a legitimate a future Bond films topic; there are plenty of threads on Blofeld or Quantum returning in a future Bond film, so why not this?

    3. It is very interesting to discuss with mature posters who do not enter into petty squabbles or use it to play the race card or offload their political and racial prejudices. How many other Bond forums can that be said of? That said, if there is any politicising of the issue, those comments can be deleted by the mods and the member can be sent a PM warning to refrain from such nonsense.

    4. As this is perennial topic that comes up in everyday conversation newspapers, magazines and online then why should we not be allowed to discuss it with many of our experts here on the biggest James Bond forum community in the world?

    That's how I view it anyhow. I'll contribute a more substantive post on the thread's subject matter later on.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,737
    I remember back around 1994 there was a lot of discussion making the rounds concerning Tuvok, a Vulcan character on the upcoming Voyager Star Trek series. Word had it that he would be played by a black actor, and at conventions, there was a feeling that it was being done merely to service fans of colour because Vulcans had always been played by lighter-skin types. I myself admit to a "Really?" attitude back then, but Tim Russ proved to be a very good Vulcan, and pretty soon his character was simply part of the show.
    My point is that sometimes you think a radical choice might not work, then it does.
    That said, I wouldn't go out of my way to cast a black actor as Bond, in much the same way as I would not go out of my way to cast a short actress as Wonder Woman. But sometimes the actor can blow you away regardless.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,574
    It's interesting that the thread is titled 'Would you accept a black Bond?' as opposed to 'Should Bond be black' or 'Will a black actor ever play Bond?'

    As it stands it's prodding at us with the racism stick, even though our reasons for not accepting a black Bond would probably be the same as our reasons for not accepting a white American Bond
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2014 Posts: 17,737
    NicNac wrote:
    not accepting a white American Bond

    Statesist. [-X
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 7,653
    RC7 wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    I like James Bond dinosaur and women unfriendly to exist in my lifetime, he gives me some mighty un-PC pleasure. And I am sure a lot of his attraction is just that for quite a lot of people.

    James Bond has always moved with the times, so I wouldn't call the 21st century Bond, particularly un-PC. For the last decade or so one would have to look to British figures such as Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Littlejohn for example of being 'un-PC', and I for one would not lump Bond in with these buffoons. Bond strikes me as apolitical, a man who does what he does for Queen and country.

    Yes 007 slept knowingly with a sex slave, and use her for his own agenda that does indeed mean he is more PC than Clarkson, do not know the Littlejohn character.

    ;)

    That said It is one of those moments that I wonder if the writers of SF did really think this one through.

    And in any movie 007 does stuff that upsets at least the feminists with his treating women, he drives like a lunatic which most of us like, and he basicly doesn't give damn about possible casualties as shown in his footrace in Cr, carrace in QoB, chase in SF....
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    SaintMark wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    I like James Bond dinosaur and women unfriendly to exist in my lifetime, he gives me some mighty un-PC pleasure. And I am sure a lot of his attraction is just that for quite a lot of people.

    James Bond has always moved with the times, so I wouldn't call the 21st century Bond, particularly un-PC. For the last decade or so one would have to look to British figures such as Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Littlejohn for example of being 'un-PC', and I for one would not lump Bond in with these buffoons. Bond strikes me as apolitical, a man who does what he does for Queen and country.

    Yes 007 slept knowingly with a sex slave, and use her for his own agenda that does indeed mean he is more PC than Clarkson, do not know the Littlejohn character.

    ;)

    That said It is one of those moments that I wonder if the writers of SF did really think this one through.

    And in any movie 007 does stuff that upsets at least the feminists with his treating women, he drives like a lunatic which most of us like, and he basicly doesn't give damn about possible casualties as shown in his footrace in Cr, carrace in QoB, chase in SF....

    No, I don't think they thought it through. I think it was probably Mendes forgetting, for a moment, that Roger Moore was no longer James Bond. He certainly upsets feminists, but then they have a clear agenda. I don't think the character of James Bond affects the average woman one bit. In fact I'm sure he's every bit as desirable as he always was. Perhaps more, given his unyielding loyalty and servitude to a female. Most people who are 'un-PC' wear it as a badge of honour, a kind of 'look at me I'm giving a finger to all the pansy lefties'. I don't think Bond could care less, he lives his life by his own moral code. Like I said, I think he's apolitical and doesn't do things just to give the finger. He's bigger than that.
  • If you´re a true fan, you would know that Bond is a white British man in his late fourties! End of story!

    And buying tons of Bond stuff doesn't give you any more credibility than @ChickenStu has

    I did not say that. I know Bond inside and out. That was my point.
  • Posts: 7,653
    RC7 wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    I like James Bond dinosaur and women unfriendly to exist in my lifetime, he gives me some mighty un-PC pleasure. And I am sure a lot of his attraction is just that for quite a lot of people.

    James Bond has always moved with the times, so I wouldn't call the 21st century Bond, particularly un-PC. For the last decade or so one would have to look to British figures such as Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Littlejohn for example of being 'un-PC', and I for one would not lump Bond in with these buffoons. Bond strikes me as apolitical, a man who does what he does for Queen and country.

    Yes 007 slept knowingly with a sex slave, and use her for his own agenda that does indeed mean he is more PC than Clarkson, do not know the Littlejohn character.

    ;)

    That said It is one of those moments that I wonder if the writers of SF did really think this one through.

    And in any movie 007 does stuff that upsets at least the feminists with his treating women, he drives like a lunatic which most of us like, and he basicly doesn't give damn about possible casualties as shown in his footrace in Cr, carrace in QoB, chase in SF....

    No, I don't think they thought it through. I think it was probably Mendes forgetting, for a moment, that Roger Moore was no longer James Bond. He certainly upsets feminists, but then they have a clear agenda. I don't think the character of James Bond affects the average woman one bit. In fact I'm sure he's every bit as desirable as he always was. Perhaps more, given his unyielding loyalty and servitude to a female. Most people who are 'un-PC' wear it as a badge of honour, a kind of 'look at me I'm giving a finger to all the pansy lefties'. I don't think Bond could care less, he lives his life by his own moral code. Like I said, I think he's apolitical and doesn't do things just to give the finger. He's bigger than that.

    Nicely put, then again labels get put on you by other folks so Bond might not chose such a label but his actions while morally just are not always percheived as such.

    As for Roger Moore's antics they were generally more done with the wing of an eye, and as such he gets away with much more as Rogers attitude is less than offensive.

    Mendes went too much with style and depth and forgot that the 007 series is somewhat more and that the throwaway of the character like Bernice was not well thought through. But then again Forster with Matthis did a similar thing, if it looks cool then anything goes.

  • edited March 2014 Posts: 12,837
    NicNac wrote:
    It's interesting that the thread is titled 'Would you accept a black Bond?' as opposed to 'Should Bond be black' or 'Will a black actor ever play Bond?'

    As it stands it's prodding at us with the racism stick, even though our reasons for not accepting a black Bond would probably be the same as our reasons for not accepting a white American Bond

    What does that even mean? I chose the title because that's why I started the thread, to see how many would accept it after I read that poll, to gauge the sites reaction (which is why I asked if a poll could be set up). Not because I have some hidden agenda where I'm trying to make everyone out to be racist.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2014 Posts: 17,737
    I have some hidden agenda

    It seems a small crisis is brewing in the accept black Bond thread! I want full newspaper coverage, I want magazine stories, I books, I want films, I want TV, I want radio, I want us on the air 24 hours a day, this is our moment! And a thousand people around this site will watch it, hear it, and read about it from thelivingroyale Media Group!

    Oh yes, we know your plan... ;)
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    I have some hidden agenda

    It seems a small crisis is brewing in the accept black Bond thread! I want full newspaper coverage, I want magazine stories, I books, I want films, I want TV, I want radio, I want us on the air 24 hours a day, this is our moment! And a thousand people around this site will watch it, hear it, and read about it from thelivingroyale Media Group!

    Oh yes, we know your plan... ;)

    'There's no news, like black news'.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,737
    Ha, well played.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ha, well played.

    ''Good morning, my golden retrievers. What kind of havoc shall the thelivingroyale Media Group create in the world today? Racism?''
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