Does NTTD hate James Bond?

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  • Posts: 12,242
    I can’t find a flagging option. I sincerely hope our moderators put a stop to this disgusting bigotry. Whether it’s a joke or serious it’s not right.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    People should do what they feel is required of them in life, and leave other people alone. As long as you dont harm others, do what the hell you like. It s nobody s business than your own.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Back to the topic of this thread.

    Do they hate Bond? Well I found it to be a pretty good portrayal of the character and thought it could have been worse. Nomi frequently didn't out perform Bond, in fact Bond saved her a few times. Paloma being a rookie and having amazing talent was a bit of a reach as she acted anything but a rookie. Whether this was the character fooling around or whether she was really that good and inexperienced I suppose is left to the viewer. But if she was a rookie and she's doing things that Bond a veteran is doing I suppose that is a slag at Bond.

    Bond was often slow in discovering things in Craig's tenure and I believe never really had a mission successfully completed so I guess there is that. I would say that the film treated the character pretty well when compared to other white male characters. I sense that Indiana Jones is going to get "deconstructed" or put in his place by a strong female character.
  • Posts: 1,092
    People should do what they feel is required of them in life, and leave other people alone. As long as you dont harm others, do what the hell you like. It s nobody s business than your own.

    Yeah, I feel ya. But culture is integral to all of us and negative aspects, like promoting drug use as hip and cool like the Marlboro Man smoking for instance, DOES influence children to a certain extent. I care about our society, truly, and the downward slide of morality is in fact tied to cinema and its pervasive influence. Where do you draw the line? It seeps in everywhere.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    @The_Reaper It might be wise to stop posting for a while. You wrote things that we cannot accept on this forum. We will contact you about those posts.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    Thread cleaned up.

    Now, back on topic please.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    What I got from the film NTTD was love.

    Love for the original films. Love for the character. Love for the original producers. Love for Ian Fleming himself.

    Cooked in with that was a deep respect for why people like Bond "do what they do". Even mining WWII and Cold War origins.
    Mentioned quickly in QOS as his duty.

  • edited July 2022 Posts: 532
    If anything NTTD was *too* reverential to Bond. The way he went out, the heartfelt final words, and the “mythic” ending with Madeline and Mathilde didn’t feel full circle with Craig’s take on the character from Casino Royale which is what they intended. If Bond had to die, I think it should have been a lot less fussy and grand. No tearful goodbyes, or nanobots, or looking out at the sunset, etc. That might have made the people already upset he died even MORE upset, but it would at least be more true to the character and the scotch-taped multi-film arc they were going for. And beyond that, there’s a clear love of the franchise and character throughout the movie, a few lighthearted jabs about his age and putting the character through the ringer certainly don’t count as hate and they damn near make him a saint with the ending.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    I just watched CR in a theater Thu and commented to a friend how masterfully well it tied together content and dialog through the next 4 films, not least NTTD. That stands well for me with CR being such a great film to start it all.

    A great achievement by the producers

  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    What I got from the film NTTD was love.

    Love for the original films. Love for the character. Love for the original producers. Love for Ian Fleming himself.

    Absolutely. This is why the OHMSS theme during the chat with M worked for me, though it apparently annoyed a lot of fans.

    And seeing Robert Brown on the wall? Yeah, it's fan service, but man did I feel love there.

  • Posts: 3,272
    What I got from the film NTTD was love.

    Love for the original films. Love for the character. Love for the original producers. Love for Ian Fleming himself.

    Absolutely. This is why the OHMSS theme during the chat with M worked for me, though it apparently annoyed a lot of fans.

    And seeing Robert Brown on the wall? Yeah, it's fan service, but man did I feel love there.

    Yes, I had no issues at all with those bits you mentioned.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,250
    What I got from the film NTTD was love.

    Love for the original films. Love for the character. Love for the original producers. Love for Ian Fleming himself.

    Cooked in with that was a deep respect for why people like Bond "do what they do". Even mining WWII and Cold War origins.
    Mentioned quickly in QOS as his duty.

    @RichardTheBruce beautifully stated.
  • I think NTTD did a lot to strengthen the film franchise going forward. The decision to kill of Craig’s Bond was helpful in that we can immediately go into the next actor’s tenure with a clean slate, plus this opens up a world of possibilities with regards to shaking things up. If they’re willing to kill of Bond and give him a family in this film, who knows what might be in store for the future. Makes it more exciting to speculate even if I myself may disagree with some of those decisions.
  • Posts: 1,879
    thedove wrote: »
    Back to the topic of this thread.

    Do they hate Bond? Well I found it to be a pretty good portrayal of the character and thought it could have been worse. Nomi frequently didn't out perform Bond, in fact Bond saved her a few times. Paloma being a rookie and having amazing talent was a bit of a reach as she acted anything but a rookie. Whether this was the character fooling around or whether she was really that good and inexperienced I suppose is left to the viewer. But if she was a rookie and she's doing things that Bond a veteran is doing I suppose that is a slag at Bond.

    One of the most frequent things I've read, not here but on other fan pages, is how Paloma should've been the main Bond girl and how great she was and the Madeline character and Seydoux are awful, etc. My take is Paloma was used just right. There's every indication she'd have worn out her welcome or become a repeat of what we've seen previously, and Nomi was necessary to fill that role as Bond's frenemy.
  • Posts: 15,785
    I think NTTD celebrates James Bond to the point of giving him a heroic send off.
  • Posts: 3,272
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I think NTTD celebrates James Bond to the point of giving him a heroic send off.

    That's one way of putting it.
  • Posts: 988
    NTTD is the most disrespectful of all Bond films. I hate it, and I hate it because it genuinely does hate James Bond.
    If you guys think it's a celebration, go for it!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    Yes, NTTD hates James Bond.

    Bond has even less fun in the sheets than with the previous blonde love interest, Kara Milovy. Ultimately, the "woke" duo of Barbara and Daniel provide the final coup-de-grace, much like a latter-day, gender-swapped Zorin and May Day.

    /sarcasm
  • Posts: 12,242
    The beauty of art! All subjective ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    Hate! Hate! Hate!
    Wow. WOOOOOOW! They killed a fictional character in a movie. Get over it.
  • Posts: 6,682
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Hate! Hate! Hate!
    Wow. WOOOOOOW! They killed a fictional character in a movie. Get over it.

    They're fictional murderers. They should go to fictional trial, where they would be found fictionally guilty, and sentenced to fictional jail.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2022 Posts: 23,448
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Hate! Hate! Hate!
    Wow. WOOOOOOW! They killed a fictional character in a movie. Get over it.

    They're fictional murderers. They should go to fictional trial, where they would be found fictionally guilty, and sentenced to fictional jail.

    I can't say that I downright hate a movie. That's a bit strong, isn't it? There are tons of films I don't like, but I'm not being dramatic about them.

    And yes, perhaps we should build us a fictional shrine for Bond and Felix too.

    Besides, we know he's not dead. He faked it all to leave his wife and daughter behind and spend some hot salsa nights with Paloma. Isn't that the ending the NTTD "haters" want? 😄
  • Posts: 6,682
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Hate! Hate! Hate!
    Wow. WOOOOOOW! They killed a fictional character in a movie. Get over it.

    They're fictional murderers. They should go to fictional trial, where they would be found fictionally guilty, and sentenced to fictional jail.

    I can't say that I downright hate a movie. That's a bit strong, isn't it? There are tons of films I don't like, but I'm not being dramatic about them.

    And yes, perhaps we should build us a fictional shrine for Bond and Felix too.

    Besides, we know he's not dead. He faked it all to leave his wife and daughter behind and spend some hot salsa nights with Paloma. Isn't that the ending the NTTD "haters" want? 😄

    I don't ever recall feeling I hated a movie either. I have a found a select few annoying, and an even more select few very annoying. Like nails on a chalkboard. But not hated.

    But I think it's plausible to hate a movie, particularly if one feels its point of view is morally reprehensible.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2022 Posts: 23,448
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Hate! Hate! Hate!
    Wow. WOOOOOOW! They killed a fictional character in a movie. Get over it.

    They're fictional murderers. They should go to fictional trial, where they would be found fictionally guilty, and sentenced to fictional jail.

    I can't say that I downright hate a movie. That's a bit strong, isn't it? There are tons of films I don't like, but I'm not being dramatic about them.

    And yes, perhaps we should build us a fictional shrine for Bond and Felix too.

    Besides, we know he's not dead. He faked it all to leave his wife and daughter behind and spend some hot salsa nights with Paloma. Isn't that the ending the NTTD "haters" want? 😄

    I don't ever recall feeling I hated a movie either. I have a found a select few annoying, and an even more select few very annoying. Like nails on a chalkboard. But not hated.

    But I think it's plausible to hate a movie, particularly if one feels its point of view is morally reprehensible.

    Well, yes, you are probably right. I find half of the stuff people throw on YouTube morally reprehensible, so I guess I can hate those videos, or rather the system that supports and encourages them.

    But Bond films have always tried to entertain, including CR67 and NSNA. It's well known around here that I struggle tremendously with the latter. In fact, I have called it a work of hatred before, not from the POV of Kershner, but certainly from that of McClory. I can't shake the feeling that, if he could have, he would have taken down both the Fleming and Broccoli/Saltzman legacies behind 007. And then there's Connery, who probably needed the money, but also said some unfortunate things about Cubby that show clear signs of resentment (hatred, perhaps?). Still, a lot of people working on that film did what they could to make it as good as possible. I think it's a poorly written, worse executed and terribly looking and sounding film, nowhere near the quality of the average EON film, but I don't hate it. I'm not going to hate-watch a film; I have tons of other films to explore. And I keep revisiting NSNA, so there you have it, I don't hate NSNA. ;-)

    Now, returning to the original question of this thread; does NTTD hate James Bond? Taken literally, the question makes no sense so let's rephrase it as "do the people who worked on NTTD hate James Bond?" If they hated James Bond, they wouldn't have made the film in the first place. Or they would have reshaped the formula into something they didn't hate. The fact that they made and proudly delivered this expensive film, means they don't hate James Bond. And they have no reason to. Sigourney Weaver didn't hate Ripley when she demanded that her character be killed off in Fincher's film.

    There are things that NTTD does and there are things the film doesn't do. And both seem to upset a number of fans. I can respect that. But I have gone over the film with a microscope a few times now and can't, for the life of me, find anything that deserves such a strong response as hatred. Perhaps I can conceit this much: with a tone so dark and cold at times, the things that do stick out as a bit odd are less easily ignored. DAD is full of WTFs, yet halfway through the film, we realise that Romeo Must Die and PlayStation had a baby, so we stop caring. Goofy DAF could have gotten away with a flying saucer from Mars at the end, and no reason to suspect that TMWTGG couldn't have sold us on James Bond trapping a killer midget in a travel bag. (Oh, wait.) But the Craig era was built on the expectation that this James Bond would be more naturalistic, grittier, and a little cynical at times yet certainly in keeping with the Fleming legacy. And already in 2008, they were forced to commit to something slightly different. Then the SkyFall event happened, and then delays, frustration, the controversial SP, and something about wrists being slit happened. And since then, the Craigs have been under attack. Person X sees one way out, person Y another, and person Z yet another. And then the film does things no one could have predicted, and some are fine with that, others aren't.

    But to say that this project is the product of hatred from its filmmakers towards their primary moneymaker, goes a bit too far. You know, I am convinced that Broccoli, Wilson, Craig, Fukunaga and many others are genuinely proud of NTTD. Again, you don't shoot a film like this if you hated James Bond. At the very least, you still want to make money off of all the other films, and you're not helping that cause any bit by pissing on your own parade, as Greene would have put it, and telling the world that this James Bond fella means nothing to you.
  • Posts: 15,785
    Great post, @DarthDimi! I get the impression the Eon crew responsible for NTTD were extremely proud of this outing. I believe Barbara referred to it as a "cinematic masterpiece". And did they not push to get this Bond several Academy Award nominations for 2021?
    They don't hate Bond. They just don't mind takings risks and pushing the envelope.
    Whether it this film pushed it too far is very much up to debate. I kind of think they did, but only time will tell.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited July 2022 Posts: 2,161
    I think it’s pretty clear that they (maybe hate isn’t the right word) feel a mild distain, or embarrassment, towards the Bond that many of us grew up with; the children of the ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s. Despite all of the callbacks.
  • Posts: 15,785
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I think it’s pretty clear that they (maybe hate isn’t the right word) feel a mild distain, or embarrassment, towards the Bond that many of us grew up with; the children of the ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s. Despite all of the callbacks.

    Sadly, I do think there's a slight sense of shame. Perhaps a struggle to constantly prove Bond's relevance and value for modern audiences?
    Social media doesn't really help with constant articles and posts advocating Bond to change and be reinvented.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited July 2022 Posts: 12,914
    I don't feel that way at all and I've been around as a child of the 60s and after.

    Their unrestrained callbacks to all the previous films over time do tell another story. And to relate to another discussion, that would be about love of their own franchise and the character.

  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 648
    Hate is the wrong word. Given the comments made by the filmmakers it's obvious that they basically targeted Bond's character for subversion and deconstruction. Journalists, pop culture critics, and other cretins have been calling for this for decades, and the producers finally gave in. Oscar-chasing probably also played a role in the decisions made for this movie.

    In the end, scorn would be a better term than hate. The producers have no problem turning Bond into a figure of contempt for every other character, the complete opposite of all previous Bond eras where he was a symbol of victory against the odds, while simultaneously riding the coat tails of those same eras which they scorn. This is off-the-charts cynicism, but that's Hollywood.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    Hate is the word introduced by the OP, and it's a common thread through the subject line ethos proposed.


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