Does NTTD hate James Bond?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    I remember what a real novelty it was in 2006 to see Cinematic Bond severely injured at a hospital, having to sit on a wheelchair across two scenes. That's just something we never saw in Bond films before, but it was more or less common for Fleming Bond. Imagine ending a Bond film the way Fleming ended THUNDERBALL where Bond is dragging himself across the hospital just to find Domino and have a peace of mind before allowing himself to give into rest.

    That's something I wish we saw in NSNA when the filmmakers had a chance to truly do something unique from what EON was doing at the time. Unfortunately, McClory was too busy chasing EON's formula because he was convinced he created it in the first place.
  • Posts: 1,550
    VERY interesting ! For that to have worked, then the whole of NSNA would have had to be different, not just the ending...or else it would have been jarringly different from the rest of the film. Remember the passage in the book where Bond just sits and talks with Domino, and she makes a story to go with the wrapper ? To take that sort of time, to have that patience, to let us see characters get to know each other slowly, and naturally, when and where do you see that now ? That's right, in long-form TV, where there is the time for it, and audiences can enjoy the long, slow but interesting parts as well as the slam-bank fast action sequences.
    I do think, though, that a serious Bond film in 1983 had little chance of financial success and, therefore, being made that way. It might have been an artistic success, and greatly appreciated now, but not then...a bit like OHMSS.
    They can do it that way the next time TB gets filmed...3rd time's the charm ! Unfortunately, though, it won't have Connery, Sean Connery.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    Since62 wrote: »
    I do think, though, that a serious Bond film in 1983 had little chance of financial success and, therefore, being made that way.

    I think just having Sean Connery in the part would have made audiences give the film a lot more goodwill than usual. It was an opportunity to do something different with EON rather than just try to compete with him. In the end, OCTOPUSSY was the one that came up on top.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,917
    Since62 wrote: »
    Speaking of Bond in Jamaica: I simply cannot now recall - did the cool speargun scene shown in releases pre-release of the film make it into the movie ?

    Sadly not :(
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2022 Posts: 5,947
    Since62 wrote: »
    VERY interesting ! For that to have worked, then the whole of NSNA would have had to be different, not just the ending...or else it would have been jarringly different from the rest of the film. Remember the passage in the book where Bond just sits and talks with Domino, and she makes a story to go with the wrapper ? To take that sort of time, to have that patience, to let us see characters get to know each other slowly, and naturally, when and where do you see that now ? That's right, in long-form TV, where there is the time for it, and audiences can enjoy the long, slow but interesting parts as well as the slam-bank fast action sequences.
    I do think, though, that a serious Bond film in 1983 had little chance of financial success and, therefore, being made that way. It might have been an artistic success, and greatly appreciated now, but not then...a bit like OHMSS.
    They can do it that way the next time TB gets filmed...3rd time's the charm ! Unfortunately, though, it won't have Connery, Sean Connery.

    I'd rather watch Stacey Sutton screaming "James!" on an infinite loop than sit through a third TB adaptation.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,915
    Fukunaga said that it was his decision to have Bond living a completely solitary life in Jamaica. Not only did Cary want to show that Bond didn't have any friends, he even removed a gardener from the script to emphasise just how isolated Bond had become in Jamaica. I liked that - it underlined the self-imposed exile.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 3,279
    Venutius wrote: »
    Fukunaga said that it was his decision to have Bond living a completely solitary life in Jamaica. Not only did Cary want to show that Bond didn't have any friends, he even removed a gardener from the script to emphasise just how isolated Bond had become in Jamaica. I liked that - it underlined the self-imposed exile.

    The problem with all of this is creating Bond into a character we feel sorry for, rather than we want to be, or admire. I don't go to watch a Bond movie and expect to feel sorry for him. I want to walk 10 feet taller out of the cinema wanting to be Bond.

    With NTTD I felt nothing but pity for him throughout the movie. This is a far cry from the Connery panther swagger, Moore charm, Dalton badass cool, hell even Brozza's smarmy cheese and self assuredness. No matter what you throw at Bond, he always wins.

    NTTD lost all that for me.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,915
    Yeah, I know what you're saying and you're right, it wouldn't have suited the others as well. But it was believable with CraigBond, no? He's always been something of a loner ('I don't have any friends') and this took that and pushed it. I'd've liked to have seen a bit more of him in Jamaica, actually - there was a lot of potential for some noirish brooding in there. It looks like paradise, but there's something dark just behind the surface and a troubled hero who can't quite outrun his demons, etc. But then, as you rightly point out, how far can you go with that before it stops being Bond? There's also me being a misanthropic swine, so I could just be wanting to see some of myself reflected in Bond! ;)
  • Posts: 12,248
    The biggest difference between Craig and all who came before (bar Lazenby at the end) is that the first five get to enjoy far more of the glamorous side and win at the end pretty much. Craig was cursed and showed Bond as being a burden and curse more than a gift. Both are valid takes.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,915
    Yes, Paul Haggis sort of suggested that when he said that his Bond 'pays a price' for the life he leads. 'He might deny that he has to pay a price, but he does'. I know they lightened up considerably after Haggis stopped writing the scripts, but a lot of that aspect is still there in the subsequent Craig films. Including the ultimate price in NTTD, obvs!
  • Posts: 3,279
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The biggest difference between Craig and all who came before (bar Lazenby at the end) is that the first five get to enjoy far more of the glamorous side and win at the end pretty much. Craig was cursed and showed Bond as being a burden and curse more than a gift. Both are valid takes.

    Yes they are. A brooding depressed Bond is actually more in line with the novels too, as Bond would often have bouts of melancholy, even in the early books.

    Just seeing this pushed further to the front in NTTD, and then ultimately leading to his death is not something I particularly wanted to see in any Bond film, ever. The perfect Bond film for me is going out on a high, a feel-good factor when the end credits roll. This is something that most of the Bond films have, with the exception of OHMSS, QoS and NTTD.

    OHMSS I make allowances for, as this was a one-off at the time, kept in line with the book, and it didn't show Bond dying.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 14,917
    Pretty sure NTTD is a bit of a one-off! :) QoS tried it by adding the gunbarrel in, but it was a bit of fudged film overall.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    EON always tries to soften the blow with somber/downer endings.

    OHMSS: “sure, his wife got murdered, BUT BLARE THE BOND THEME”

    LTK: Sure, Leiter lost a leg and a wife, but WINKING FISH!!

    CR: “The bitch is dead… *two minutes later* THE NAME IS BOND, JAMES BOND”

    QOS: Bond finds solace in… GUN BARREL!!

    SF: Sure, M died, but Bond is ready to work “WITH PLEASURE”

    NTTD: Bond is dead, BUT LOOK AT HIS CUTE DAUGHTER BEING TOLD A STORY ABOUT BOND!!!

    Only franchise that seems to thrive on bleak endings is THE PLANET OF THE APES series.

  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,161
    Definitely the firsts four APE films. I still find those leaving me feeling pretty devastated.
  • Posts: 1,394
    00Heaven wrote: »
    Geeze, this thread, lol.

    My take on it is Bond was shagging a bunch of birds in Jamaica anyway. He's James Bond. You don't have to see it to know it. The man was up for it no matter what and he's literally some kind of living meme from Jurassic Park: "Life, uh, finds a way".

    So Nomi plays him, so what? He was well up for it!

    So he has a joke with Paloma? So what? He was still well up for it, it was just the wrong damn place and time. So what if she says no? Does that not happen in the novels too? I'm thinking Moonraker here but you get my point...

    We women have agency. Yes, Bond is hot, but for others, not so much. That's LIFE. Get over your ridiculous egos and male fantasies lol.

    And that's coming from a place where I don't even think this movie really did stray into that territory... So I guess, uh, the jokes on your fragility? :P.

    As the old trailers used to proudly state, Bond “ DOES IT EVERYWHERE!!! “

    As far as older guys getting with young hot women,it happens all the time in real life.Dennis Quaid is in his sixties and his current wife is in her late twenties.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    I am a fan of such things.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    It’s not something I want to see on the big screen again with Bond. We already had ROGER MOORE AND THE LEATHERY SANDS OF TIME, also known among fans as A VIEW TO A KILL.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,915
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Dennis Quaid is in his sixties and his current wife is in her late twenties.

    I wonder what first attracted her to the 68-year-old millionaire...?
    (Ah, come on, half the UK still channels Mrs. Merton when they get the chance to roll that one out! ;) ).
  • Posts: 1,394
    Venutius wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Dennis Quaid is in his sixties and his current wife is in her late twenties.

    I wonder what first attracted her to the 68-year-old millionaire...?
    (Ah, come on, half the UK still channels Mrs. Merton when they get the chance to roll that one out! ;) ).

    Apparently she comes from a wealthy family so his millions weren’t that big a deal.Guess Quaid just has that irresistible charm.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,915
    Yeah, it was one of those 'joke' things...ok, it was Mrs. Merton's joke, not mine, but still!
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    edited April 2022 Posts: 538
    It seems like the franchise is compensating for the Brosnan era. Where Bond was an almost flawless, somewhat of an invincible superhero that always got every woman, to the point where he wasn't a believable character.
  • M16_Cart wrote: »
    It seems like the franchise is compensating for the Brosnan era. Where Bond was an almost flawless, somewhat of an invincible superhero that always got every woman, to the point where he wasn't a believable character.

    Perhaps Over-Compensating. Brosnan’s Bond could be emotional and down to earth at time, but the filmmakers didn’t give enough time in those films to really explore those aspects. It’s why I view Brosnan’s era as a stepping stone to Craig’s; because the filmmakers learned their lessons from what went wrong with the Brosnan films. Having said that, Bond 26 should be akin to something like Goldeneye or The Living Daylights.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,917
    I could certainly take a Daylights tone. I've always felt that CR actually felt pretty much at the same level too.
  • mtm wrote: »
    I could certainly take a Daylights tone. I've always felt that CR actually felt pretty much at the same level too.

    Oh absolutely, perhaps even slightly higher, but I feel like trying to imitate the tone and style of CR will just bring inevitable comparisons to that film, which will be tough seeing as how the new actor will already have inevitable comparisons to Craig.
  • Posts: 1,394
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    It seems like the franchise is compensating for the Brosnan era. Where Bond was an almost flawless, somewhat of an invincible superhero that always got every woman, to the point where he wasn't a believable character.

    Well,he lost a couple of women.Paris Carver for one.And he was forced to kill Electra after she betrayed him and threatened to commit an act of international terrorism.

    He also didn’t get to bang Xenia Onatopp ( granted he might not have survived that encounter if he had! )

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2022 Posts: 14,917
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    It seems like the franchise is compensating for the Brosnan era. Where Bond was an almost flawless, somewhat of an invincible superhero that always got every woman, to the point where he wasn't a believable character.

    Perhaps Over-Compensating. Brosnan’s Bond could be emotional and down to earth at time, but the filmmakers didn’t give enough time in those films to really explore those aspects.


    Yes, the attempts at emotional bits in the Brosnan films rarely felt to me like much more than lip service being paid, as if Pierce had asked to do a bit of sad-face acting and staring into the middle distance so they'd give him one scene where he could do it. Like the pretty random "It's what keeps me alive"/"It's what keeps you alone" beach scene.
  • Posts: 2,857
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    It seems like the franchise is compensating for the Brosnan era. Where Bond was an almost flawless, somewhat of an invincible superhero that always got every woman, to the point where he wasn't a believable character.

    Perhaps Over-Compensating. Brosnan’s Bond could be emotional and down to earth at time, but the filmmakers didn’t give enough time in those films to really explore those aspects. It’s why I view Brosnan’s era as a stepping stone to Craig’s; because the filmmakers learned their lessons from what went wrong with the Brosnan films. Having said that, Bond 26 should be akin to something like Goldeneye or The Living Daylights.

    I've always felt TWINE is sort of a prototype SF so I get what you mean. That said I always felt Brosnan was better at those emotional scenes when he was understated and not trying to 'act' if that makes sense (ie. the scene with Paris Carver in the hotel in TND). His acting in TWINE is a bit... well, soap opera-ish at times for me. Craig could handle those more overt emotions a lot better.

    Completely agree about Bond 26 needing to be more along the lines of TLD or GE. There are still some interesting character moments with Bond in those films, but they're not as 'personal' as something like SF or NTTD.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    Yes, and the filmmakers want you to feel bad for ever liking him at all.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,462
    Yes. The producers and filmmakers hate James Bond. They were hoping the film would suck worse than it did so it’d be such a dismal failure Amazon would keep away and they could finally wrap the series up and kick it off a cliff. I think Barbara and Michael have Daddy issues and Bond is a metaphor for Cubby’s poor parenting, in NTTD.

    RIP James Bond, you dislikable bastard.
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    lol um, at least one of those is sarcasm XD

    I did actually want to make this a poll as I knew there would be mixed opinions, but unfortunately this forum doesn't support polls, as far as I could see.
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