Does NTTD hate James Bond?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,917
    I think she was pretty positive, she was capable and confident and cool: just because she had some flaws and failed at some things (which she actually learned from over the course of the movie) doesn't mean she wasn't positive. A positive portrayal can be a fully rounded one of ups and downs: it doesn't have to be someone being 100% amazing all the time. She wasn't exactly Mary Goodnight :D

    When I think of Roger's Bond he's forever getting knocked out by a gun tap on the back of the head, and the films even laugh with him at some of Bond's slightly pompous attitudes, but regardless you'd have to say they were pretty positive portrayals of that character.
  • Posts: 1,001
    He's hard-edged, but generally a pretty standup guy, and is seemingly made to pay some kind of karmic price for retrospectively questionable behavior in 1960s films.

    Heh! I like what you wrote there.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    Goodnight was atrocious. That’s far more a betrayal of the series than giving Bond a death.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 559
    mtm wrote: »
    I think she was pretty positive, she was capable and confident and cool: just because she had some flaws and failed at some things (which she actually learned from over the course of the movie) doesn't mean she wasn't positive. A positive portrayal can be a fully rounded one of ups and downs: it doesn't have to be someone being 100% amazing all the time. She wasn't exactly Mary Goodnight :D

    When I think of Roger's Bond he's forever getting knocked out by a gun tap on the back of the head, and the films even laugh with him at some of Bond's slightly pompous attitudes, but regardless you'd have to say they were pretty positive portrayals of that character.

    I would agree that it is a positive portrayal. I'm not very sensitive about these things and I don't normally make such readings which is partly why I wondered if anyone else had picked up on it in the same way I did, from the side of those who are more critical of Bond and what he represents.
  • Posts: 12,837
    mtm wrote: »
    The main issue I didn’t like being fudged was who Primo worked for. If you’re making the film and you’re not going to make even a mention of him switching sides it just looks like you don’t really care why the baddies are baddies.

    Fairly easy to miss because we see it through his eyes from his perspective, but when Q is scrubbing through Primo’s eye footage that they got from Blofeld, he does play a short clip that shows Ash recruiting him to work for Saffin after the party in Cuba. Made me smile. We’ve had dial a henchman in MR, now we’ve got a supervillain running a scheme to get out of work henchmen back in the game.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 14,917
    I remember the Ash scene, but to be honest at the time I first saw it I thought was supposed to be Primo recruiting Ash! 😄
    Really they needed two separate henchmen or for Primo to have been Safin’s undercover guy the whole time.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,947
    hoppimike wrote: »
    Frankly I'm surprised more people weren't upset by how Nomi was portrayed. She's cocky and arrogant so we're obviously supposed to dislike her and as far as female agents go, she certainly has nothing on Wai Lin. The whole PC debate that went on before the film feels quite ironic now because the message the film is basically broadcasting is that the young overly aggressive black woman needs to rein it in and learn to respect her old white male superiors, who are much better than her anyway. Hardly PC.

    Political correctness has gone very odd these days.

    I understand that some people might take issue with a man being a bit pushy, but why have issue with him simply being successful with women, as he was before NTTD?

    Now there seems to be a desire to paint Bond as unsuccessful with women because somehow that is more PC.

    I wonder if the next film will have that approach too or whether it will change again.

    Also as for the race component of it... how bizarre that they felt they had to make it so competitive in the first place. They could have easily written in more reasonable characters of other races (as they have since the beginning of the series really) and nobody would have taken issue with those characters.

    For some reason they seem to want this kind of conflict.

    The "PC debate" was in the media, not in the film.

    I don't understand what you are saying about Bond being "unsuccessful with women." That also does not appear to be in the film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,917
    The only encounter he has outside of his relationship with Madeline is with Nomi, and she instigated the whole thing as a spy in order to turn down him anyway. It's a bit like saying Anya knocking Bond out with sleep dust on the Egyptian barge makes him unsuccessful with women.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 1,394
    echo wrote: »
    hoppimike wrote: »
    Frankly I'm surprised more people weren't upset by how Nomi was portrayed. She's cocky and arrogant so we're obviously supposed to dislike her and as far as female agents go, she certainly has nothing on Wai Lin. The whole PC debate that went on before the film feels quite ironic now because the message the film is basically broadcasting is that the young overly aggressive black woman needs to rein it in and learn to respect her old white male superiors, who are much better than her anyway. Hardly PC.

    Political correctness has gone very odd these days.

    I understand that some people might take issue with a man being a bit pushy, but why have issue with him simply being successful with women, as he was before NTTD?

    Now there seems to be a desire to paint Bond as unsuccessful with women because somehow that is more PC.

    I wonder if the next film will have that approach too or whether it will change again.

    Also as for the race component of it... how bizarre that they felt they had to make it so competitive in the first place. They could have easily written in more reasonable characters of other races (as they have since the beginning of the series really) and nobody would have taken issue with those characters.

    For some reason they seem to want this kind of conflict.

    The "PC debate" was in the media, not in the film.

    I don't understand what you are saying about Bond being "unsuccessful with women." That also does not appear to be in the film.

    I think he means the scene in Cuba where Bond thinks Paloma wants to sleep with him,only for her to correct him and make it clear she’s not interested.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,915
    Wasn't Bond just teasing Paloma, because of how it looked when she started unbuttoning his clothes? She pulled a brilliant face in response, so she might've believed he was serious, but I thought Bond was just having her on - he didn't really think she was coming on to him. Did he?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,461
    I agree with you @Venutius ; I didn’t see it as Bond coming onto her and getting rejected. She was awfully “aggressive “ with him and he was taking the mickey….
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    Bond specifically says “shouldn’t we get to know each other first?” IN RESPONSE to her stripping him of his clothes. He wasn’t necessarily attempting to sleep with her at that moment because, if nobody noticed, they were in a dingy wine cellar. If Bond was gonna try to sleep with her it would have been at a five star hotel.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,026
    He's definitely leaning in for a smooch, all the same. I can see why people might interpret it one way or another.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    Could be worse. He could have just raped her like Connery Bond does.

    ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,026
    Fukanaga would never allow that!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,915
    peter wrote: »
    he was taking the mickey….

    Yes, surely. The first couple of times I saw that scene, I viewed it in light of what Fukunaga had said about Connery and thought it'd been designed to contrast with that and show that CraigBond does take no for an answer. Then I noticed the wry look on Craig's face and got the gag! Other interpretations are available, obvs, but yeah, I go with him just teasing her/taking the mick.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 1,394
    Fukanaga would never allow that!

    No.Fukunaga would demand her to strip naked during an audition for a tv show ( allegedly).

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,461
    @AstonLotus … that wasn’t during the audition; the actress in question got a small role as a stripper in True Detective; when she got on set, and, you know, had to strip, she refused saying she wasn’t told about the nudity.

    Knowing the business just a little, if this story is a hundred percent accurate, the casting director and her agent screwed up the communication— not the director.

    I assume she was replaced with an actress willing to do the nudity— since that is what the scene called for.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    Hehehe trying to find dirt on Fukunaga. He’s not Joss Whedon, so that’s pretty obvious.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 3,279
    peter wrote: »
    I agree with you @Venutius ; I didn’t see it as Bond coming onto her and getting rejected. She was awfully “aggressive “ with him and he was taking the mickey….

    That's how I saw it too. NTTD has its faults, but Bond's relationship and flirting with Paloma was not one of them.

    I felt far more comfortable watching a scene like that play out, an older guy and a much younger woman, with Craig being gently kicked back in his place, than some of the scenes in AVTAK, where Moore just looks wrong playing the seductive womaniser at his age.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,020
    At least with this film the women were older than 30. Whereas with FYEO you had a 53 year old Roger Moore paired with a 23 year old Carole Boquet.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,917
    I wouldn't mind a more age-appropriate screen partner for Bond though. I think I'd have rather enjoyed if Monica Bellucci had been the main co-star for Spectre- she seemed.. grown up.
    Although of course Madeline needs to be Mr White's daughter, so she needs to be a touch younger.
  • Posts: 3,279
    At least with this film the women were older than 30. Whereas with FYEO you had a 53 year old Roger Moore paired with a 23 year old Carole Boquet.

    Yes, those last few films of Moore are quite cringeworthy now during the lovemaking scenes. The same with Connery in NSNA and Kim Basinger. It just looks wrong.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 14,917
    It does, not least because it just doesn't seem plausible! At least with Roger's last few films it feels like he's in on the joke that it's vaguely ridiculous all of these young women find him irresistible- I find that quite funny.

    And I'd honestly prefer to see a mature woman and Bond connecting on a vaguely believable level. I felt even Vesper was a bit too young.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573
    Geeze, this thread, lol.

    My take on it is Bond was shagging a bunch of birds in Jamaica anyway. He's James Bond. You don't have to see it to know it. The man was up for it no matter what and he's literally some kind of living meme from Jurassic Park: "Life, uh, finds a way".

    So Nomi plays him, so what? He was well up for it!

    So he has a joke with Paloma? So what? He was still well up for it, it was just the wrong damn place and time. So what if she says no? Does that not happen in the novels too? I'm thinking Moonraker here but you get my point...

    We women have agency. Yes, Bond is hot, but for others, not so much. That's LIFE. Get over your ridiculous egos and male fantasies lol.

    And that's coming from a place where I don't even think this movie really did stray into that territory... So I guess, uh, the jokes on your fragility? :P.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,917
    00Heaven wrote: »
    Geeze, this thread, lol.

    My take on it is Bond was shagging a bunch of birds in Jamaica anyway. He's James Bond.

    Birds of the West Indies.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573
    mtm wrote: »
    00Heaven wrote: »
    Geeze, this thread, lol.

    My take on it is Bond was shagging a bunch of birds in Jamaica anyway. He's James Bond.

    Birds of the West Indies.

    Haha, indeed, check and mate :).
  • Posts: 1,550
    Speaking of Bond in Jamaica: I simply cannot now recall - did the cool speargun scene shown in releases pre-release of the film make it into the movie ?
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 2,161
    Fleming was extremely hard on Bond. Physically and mentally, far more than the films ever were (I guess convincingly threatening to kill the little girl being the exception, that was beyond any psychological trauma that Bond was put through in the novels). Of course Bond survived Fleming.
  • Posts: 1,550
    The torture of Bond through the opening credits of DAD was pretty darn rough. It lasted a very long time, too. More than a year ? Recall how his hair grew from x length to y length. I know Bond is attributed with many remarkable qualities, but extraordinarily rapid hair growth - particularly extraordinary given the stress he was under, which more often would cause LOSS of hair, and thinning - is not one of the capabilities we understood to be one possessed by Bond. By the way, now that I'm on this topic - shouldn't his beard have been longer ? At any rate - pretty darn tough. M and the other MI6 folks were extremely cautions with Bond when he was retrieved, apparently concerned with the possibility he had been brainwashed a la Bond between the YOLT and TMWTGG events in the books. He had not, though he might have been in worse condition along the way, depending on how you understand the visuals during the opening credits, and somehow recovered somewhat, before he was retrieved. He was working on his heart-rate and perhaps his meditative abilities helped him avoid getting even worse, and, if he did dip lower, to recover from those lower depths. Fleming, as you noted, went further down this path, perhaps inspired by The Manchurian Candidate (Book by Richard Condon, 1959 and film, 1962, both during Fleming's lifetime).
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