Does NTTD hate James Bond?

12467

Comments

  • Posts: 727
    Yes. We also hate James “pathetic” Bond. Every one of us.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,058
    It depends on whether you think Bond is a dislikable character fundamentally. The sweet spot is having a character that has numerous obvious flaws (as Bond does) but still manages to make us root for him. I think NTTD (a film I don't like as much as some nor dislike as much as others) actually makes Bond more likeable than ever before. He's desperately exposed emotionally for the entire film, and that is both the film's greatest strength but also, admittedly, a perfectly valid reason for not liking it.

    It all comes down to what you want from your Bond.
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    edited May 2022 Posts: 290
    I mean... for those who don't agree with me... what would you say is the Bond movie that is the hardest on the character? Would you say it's NTTD, or would we not even agree on that?

    I'd say Skyfall is the second worst for this, but it doesn't even come close to NTTD.
  • Posts: 1,892
    hoppimike wrote: »
    I mean... for those who don't agree with me... what would you say is the Bond movie that is the hardest on the character? Would you say it's NTTD, or would we not even agree on that?

    I'd say Skyfall is the second worst for this, but it doesn't even come close to NTTD.

    How about none? Or rephrase the question. Bond goes through hell in a lot of movies but he comes out on top. That's why we like him.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited May 2022 Posts: 659
    They've been ribbing on Bond since the Brosnan era, and yeah it's annoying. I'm thinking of Wei Lin calling him an agent of a corrupt Western power and all that, but what was worse was that Bond just sat there and took it.

    I'll say this: people who think that Bond is a rapist because of the barn scene in GF shouldn't be writing or directing these films.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,058
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I'm thinking of Wei Lin calling him an agent of a corrupt Western power and all that, but what was worse was that Bond just sat there and took it.

    I'm not sure why this is any worse than any of the conversations where Bond came up against a foreign agent previously. There was similar kinds of ribbings between Bond and Anya in TSWLM.

    And I actually see it as a strength on Bond's part that he doesn't react badly to these kinds of things. He doesn't actually really care about that stuff.
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They've been ribbing on Bond since the Brosnan era, and yeah it's annoying. I'm thinking of Wei Lin calling him an agent of a corrupt Western power and all that, but what was worse was that Bond just sat there and took it.

    I'll say this: people who think that Bond is a rapist because of the barn scene in GF shouldn't be writing or directing these films.

    I just rewatched it. Basically they were fighting, Bond stole a kiss, and then she went along with it anyway and that's it.

    Surely the only way someone could consider that rape is if a forced kiss counts as rape.

    These are movies where people are being shot, beaten up, etc... and people are worried about a kiss?
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,782
    I think Bond in film has been mixed, since Liceneto Kill there has only been 3 good Bond films IMO.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited May 2022 Posts: 3,401
    hoppimike wrote: »
    I mean... for those who don't agree with me... what would you say is the Bond movie that is the hardest on the character? Would you say it's NTTD, or would we not even agree on that?

    I'd say Skyfall is the second worst for this, but it doesn't even come close to NTTD.

    Agreed on NTTD being hard on the character.

    Maybe I would also add Goldeneye,

    Remember the "You're sexist, misogynist dinosaur line" from Judi Dench M?

    And Natalya being hard on him?

  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,221
    Or Bernard Lee M talking of outraged chefs. Humiliated tailors.

    Regarding NNTD, not hate. The opposite is true.


  • Posts: 372
    She's appaled because he is dressed like a dork when they have to attend a dressed party. So she sizes him and goes OMG he needs a suit.
    That's all there is to it.
    People just see what they wanna see.
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Newton-le-Willows, England
    Posts: 257
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    hoppimike wrote: »
    I mean... for those who don't agree with me... what would you say is the Bond movie that is the hardest on the character? Would you say it's NTTD, or would we not even agree on that?

    I'd say Skyfall is the second worst for this, but it doesn't even come close to NTTD.

    Agreed on NTTD being hard on the character.

    Maybe I would also add Goldeneye,

    Remember the "You're sexist, misogynist dinosaur line" from Judi Dench M?

    And Natalya being hard on him?

    Interesting points. But I do agree that NTTD was hard on the character. Either the filmmakers wanted to appease today’s society by having DC’s version of Bond killed off, or they just couldn’t be bothered to write good stories anymore and stick to tradition.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 1,030
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Maybe I would also add Goldeneye,
    Remember the "You're sexist, misogynist dinosaur line" from Judi Dench M?
    And Natalya being hard on him?

    I remember first watching Goldeneye and thinking how M and Moneypenny were being quite hard on him. M redeems herself with the 'come back alive' line, but yes, it struck me how the office demographic had changed from the Moore and Dalton eras.
    As for NTTD, I felt like they enjoyed giving Bond a hard time. I remember Craig saying "we've really put him through it in this one", which he seemed quite pleased about.
    For me, NTTD is the most unpleasant Bond film, but I don't think it was designed for people like me anyway.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 1,030
    peter wrote: »
    Yes. The producers and filmmakers hate James Bond. They were hoping the film would suck worse than it did so it’d be such a dismal failure Amazon would keep away and they could finally wrap the series up and kick it off a cliff.

    They obviously didn't want the film to fail, and by "putting Bond through it" they came up with a formula that current audiences liked, and the film was a success. But I'd argue that they strayed too far from the original concept of James Bond in the process, and that made it an unpalatable movie for some people.
    I'm sure they don't 'hate James Bond', but NTTD is the one Bond movie I'd mention if anyone ever asked me which movie veered towards being actually disrespectful to the character.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,061
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Maybe I would also add Goldeneye,
    Remember the "You're sexist, misogynist dinosaur line" from Judi Dench M?
    And Natalya being hard on him?

    I remember first watching Goldeneye and thinking how M and Moneypenny were being quite hard on him. M redeems herself with the 'come back alive' line, but yes, it struck me how the office demographic had changed from the Moore and Dalton eras.

    I think it’s an exaggeration to say Moneypenny was “hard” on him. Though I can imagine that after being brought up on 16 films of Moneypenny exaggeratedly FAWNING over Bond that it must have been a shock to old school to see her having gone on a date with someone that wasn’t Bond. I thought that was refreshing to see.

    It sort of helps ground Bond. The older films tended to lean too hard on how much of a superman Bond was that everyone revered him while ALL the ladies swooned over him. For example, I didn’t like how the filmmakers changed the bit in GOLDFINGER where it’s Bond that discovers Goldfinger’s original golf ball, when in the novel it was actually his caddy that discovered it and pointed it out to an astonished Bond.
  • Posts: 3,193
    No. In fact NTTD actively sets out to make Bond look like a hero when he should, in my mind anyway, be an anti-hero. His death is a very self-conscious sacrifice to protect those he loves and he's even mythologised at the end through Madeline telling Mathilde stories about a 'man named [James Bond]". It's similar to what Logan did with Wolverine in 2017.

    I mean, even if you compare the two films, Bond has less flaws than Wolverine does in that film. Sure, Bond has trust issues and breaks off his relationship with Madeline, but ultimately he was deceived by Blofeld. His retirement in Jamaica seems rather peaceful too, and after this time jump he becomes less stoic and more relaxed/talkative. If anything the film could have afforded to make Bond look less heroic in order for his death to have more impact - I dunno, maybe he is cruel to Madeline and is the one to break off the relationship for their protection, maybe he becomes more cynical and reluctant to help Felix after the five years...
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,566
    If the ending hadn't been so tied to Madeline and Mathilde, then maybe those two scenes with Paloma and Nomi would have went differently.

    I still think had Bond turned down Paloma or Nomi it would have cemented his feelings for Madeline even more. In NTTD, it feels like Madeline is out of sight out of mind
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2022 Posts: 17,921
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    If the ending hadn't been so tied to Madeline and Mathilde, then maybe those two scenes with Paloma and Nomi would have went differently.

    I still think had Bond turned down Paloma or Nomi it would have cemented his feelings for Madeline even more. In NTTD, it feels like Madeline is out of sight out of mind

    Well I suppose that was fitting enough as, for a large part of the film's narrative, Bond did think that Madeline was a traitor working for SPECTRE as that's how Blofeld and his henchmen framed it to look.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,566
    Very good point mate.
    I just wish they'd written those interactions with Nomi and Paloma better. They both come across as forced and awkward
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited May 2022 Posts: 554
    Nah. In the case of Paloma I think they just wanted to make him a one-woman guy for the film and get a little bit of humour out of it, and the banter with Nomi is as said above not so different from Anya or Wei Lin (I've always loved the "decadent" line). She's also definitely portrayed as arrogant at the start, and learns to work with him over the film.
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    edited May 2022 Posts: 14,915
    I've merged two discussions from the same poster together. They're essentially the same subject.
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    Benny wrote: »
    I've merged two discussions from the same poster together. They're essentially the same subject.

    That's OK. Sorry they're a bit similar.
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    hoppimike wrote: »
    I mean... for those who don't agree with me... what would you say is the Bond movie that is the hardest on the character? Would you say it's NTTD, or would we not even agree on that?

    I'd say Skyfall is the second worst for this, but it doesn't even come close to NTTD.

    Agreed on NTTD being hard on the character.

    Maybe I would also add Goldeneye,

    Remember the "You're sexist, misogynist dinosaur line" from Judi Dench M?

    And Natalya being hard on him?

    Yeah this has been going on for a while but I feel like it suddenly got worse in NTTD.

    I don't really remember the details of the interactions between Natalya and Bond but I do remember that line from M.

    GE was the first Bond movie I ever saw as a teenager and we all loved the film, but even back then I think that line took me aback a bit, lol

    It seems to me like it would be simpler to just remove the elements of the films that they now dislike, instead of kind of criticising itself so much for doing them!
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    mtm wrote: »
    It does, not least because it just doesn't seem plausible! At least with Roger's last few films it feels like he's in on the joke that it's vaguely ridiculous all of these young women find him irresistible- I find that quite funny.

    And I'd honestly prefer to see a mature woman and Bond connecting on a vaguely believable level. I felt even Vesper was a bit too young.
    I always found Craig and Green to fit well together age wise, despite there being a 12 year difference I never felt it in the film.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited May 2022 Posts: 3,401
    mtm wrote: »
    It does, not least because it just doesn't seem plausible! At least with Roger's last few films it feels like he's in on the joke that it's vaguely ridiculous all of these young women find him irresistible- I find that quite funny.

    And I'd honestly prefer to see a mature woman and Bond connecting on a vaguely believable level. I felt even Vesper was a bit too young.
    I always found Craig and Green to fit well together age wise, despite there being a 12 year difference I never felt it in the film.

    Well, Craig doesn't looked that old and the age gap wasn't obvious, Green also looked matured in that film, I think Camille looked a lot more younger.

    But if you can pitch me an actress, I think Rachel Weisz would fit.

    I also wished they made the Vesper character a bit more matured in that grave scene in Matera, it's impossible that she can hold a high position at the very young age.

    True, I would also prefer more matured Bond Girls like Diana Rigg's Tracy, Maud Adams' Octopussy and Monica Bellucci's Lucia Sciarra.


    * Many people liked Paloma to be the main bond girl of the film and have sex with Craig's Bond, but I don't want it to happen, it would look cringe for me, because the age gap between them was a lot more obvious, not exaggerating here, but if Seydoux looks young enough to be Craig's daughter, then Ana De Armas looks young enough to be his granddaughter, I would never watch Knives Out (I just can't imagine that an old man, already grey haired like Benoit Blanc and the young girl Martha had sex in the other movie 😅) if that happened, thankfully it didn't.

  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited May 2022 Posts: 554
    I would've been willing to go along with Paloma being the main girl because Craig didn't look his age to me in NTTD, but I won't mourn the idea.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 4,602
    There is a thin line between the writers subverting Bond traditions and characters and just reversing/ignoring them. So SF ends with Bond stripped of his famed gagets/Walter etc and having to improvise with junk and a throwing knife. This IMHO is subverting Bond movie traditions but Bond is still Bond. The spirit is still there. There has to be a line , at some point, that you don't cross. When creative subversion becomes wiping out the character and replacing with a new character. (Bond makes breakfast for toddler, Bond goes to supermarket for bottle of milk, Bond phones council about faulty street lamp.) I think, for many fans, NTTD crossed the line. It wasn't hate. It was a misguided yearning to be more creative, different, new, climactic, "push the envelope", memorable etc etc but, with that yearning, they seemed to forget about what makes Bond, Bond.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited May 2022 Posts: 2,566
    I don't mind subverting expectations and I think they've done it rather well in the Craig era, the cold murder of Severine in Skyfall for example, that shocked everybody in the cinema on opening night and put us all on the back foot.

    There's a few I can think of were I was disappointed, Ana De Armas being a cameo in NTTD, keeping Mr White alive in QOS to have him shoot himself in Spectre and killing Blofeld off the way they did in NTTD.

    I think Ana will go on to be a bigger star in years to come and I think the producers will be disappointed they didn't make more of having her in the cast of NTTD. Shame she wasn't cast as the main Bond girl in Bond 26 really
  • hoppimikehoppimike Kent, UK
    Posts: 290
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    It seems like the franchise is compensating for the Brosnan era. Where Bond was an almost flawless, somewhat of an invincible superhero that always got every woman, to the point where he wasn't a believable character.

    Perhaps Over-Compensating. Brosnan’s Bond could be emotional and down to earth at time, but the filmmakers didn’t give enough time in those films to really explore those aspects. It’s why I view Brosnan’s era as a stepping stone to Craig’s; because the filmmakers learned their lessons from what went wrong with the Brosnan films. Having said that, Bond 26 should be akin to something like Goldeneye or The Living Daylights.

    I wouldn't be against 26 being like one or both of those. They're both in my top 5 Bond films as I find them to be both fun and action-packed.

    However I thought NTTD took itself pretty seriously so I'm not convinced they'll make the next movie as "fun" as that. It's possible.
  • Posts: 1,892
    patb wrote: »
    There is a thin line between the writers subverting Bond traditions and characters and just reversing/ignoring them. So SF ends with Bond stripped of his famed gagets/Walter etc and having to improvise with junk and a throwing knife. This IMHO is subverting Bond movie traditions but Bond is still Bond. The spirit is still there. There has to be a line , at some point, that you don't cross. When creative subversion becomes wiping out the character and replacing with a new character. (Bond makes breakfast for toddler, Bond goes to supermarket for bottle of milk, Bond phones council about faulty street lamp.) I think, for many fans, NTTD crossed the line. It wasn't hate. It was a misguided yearning to be more creative, different, new, climactic, "push the envelope", memorable etc etc but, with that yearning, they seemed to forget about what makes Bond, Bond.

    Not calling you out in particular, patb, just using your comment as an example of where I get mystified by some of the fan complaints about the Bond character in NTTD. A lot of those against this portrayal make it sound as if he just spent the entire movie doing domestic things. A sparse few of those moments were sprinkled in among gunfights, Aston Martin chases, SUV chases, motorcycle chases, death-defying stunts, explosions aplenty, defiance of M, cocky comments, suave moments and other hallmarks I associate with what makes Bond, Bond.

    If anything, there was too much gunplay. The third act seemed to consist mostly of a never-ending video game of Bond and Nomi blowing away countless Saffin minions.

    What I find interesting is there are other examples of these types of things in prior Bond movies that don't get people nearly as stirred up as NTTD does.

    Of course, there was no Internet in 1985, but when Roger Moore's Bond made quiche and slept in a rocking chair in AVTAK, those were moments I thought were quite anti-Bond and I don't recall any fan letters that said they wouldn't watch another because of that. At the same time, the creators had 57-year-old Roger dallying with several younger women half his age because he's James Bond and what he was expected to do.

    Two years earlier in NSNA, you had Connery as a Bond who wasn't pretending to be as young as he once was like the Moore portrayal and he's romancing much younger women and yet still considered sexy because it was Sean Connery doing it.

    On the flip side, you have those who complain about Craig's Bond not having a romantic moment with Paloma and how unBond-like that was. Consider Bond romancing Tracy then going to Piz Gloria and acting like he's at a bachelor party. I don't have a problem with that as he was doing his job and they weren't engaged yet, but I've seen other fans complain about it being a terrible thing to do if he was in love with Tracy.

    Dalton's Bond was a one-woman man in TLD for the most part and that was big news at the time, but you rarely hear people call it out now or say they don't like his portrayal based on that. But Craig's portrayal seems to be more scrutinized than any other Bond actor, likely because of so many social media outlets and places more people can voice their opinions.

    NTTD tried different things and took chances with the character and series. I'd rather have a series willing to take those steps than one that just churns out strict formula-based cookie cutters or halfway does it the way the Brosnan era did.

  • Posts: 4,602
    All fair points but movies (like other art forms) are about perception. All of the movies have been discussed so much both on this forum and beyond . Social media brings scrutiny to all of the movies. I did say it's a thin line. The line may have been crossed on other movies and (re you first point) the line only needs to be crossed for one or two scenes to attract these types of comment. Both the writers during creation and the punters during viewing are thinking "is this Bond". You are correct in that other movies have "pushed the envelope" but thats not the title on this thread. Someone has the right to start a "Does AVTAK hate James Bond" and start that discussion. The question is an absolute one rather than a relative one.
Sign In or Register to comment.