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@bondjames, you're a trooper. I tried my hand at watching the extended cut once, and it was far and away the most miserable I've ever been while watching a movie I sat through voluntarily. Its good parts were lost in flaws and the bad parts weren't bad enough to be funny. The three hours just went on and on forever, to the point that I'd sit up in disbelief and think, "It's still going?" For such a long movie, so little actually happens in it. It's shocking how a movie so long could be so shallow and hollow.
I agree with you on Batman, and that was my main issue with why I hated this movie with a passion. I wouldn't have minded seeing a Batman that killed if the script actually took the time to explore how Bruce had changed as a man, why his code was now meaningless and what had caused that, but we get seconds of dialogue that imply various things and nothing else. I wanted to see a Bruce forced to reckon with his choices, and who actually learned something. But even after Superman gives him hope again, somehow, he still goes off to kill endless people just as he did before. So if you're going to have a Batman that the "real" Batman would despise and want to lock up forever and you're going to put him in the middle of a weak script that really does nothing at all with the idea in a deep or smart way, all that's left is a badly executed approach.
Superman gets even more screwed. People will like Batman simply because he's Batman, even though very little know who he is and what he actually stands for (hence the strange love for Batfleck). Superman on the other hand is already the butt of many jokes ("he's boring") and so any weak attempts at bringing his character into the action is going to get crazy criticism from jump. He becomes such a lifeless, joyless, mopey presence in the film, and that's a shame as I liked him in MoS on the whole. One of the two times I verbally complained out loud while watching the film was the moment where he essentially tells Lois that it is impossible for good men to stay good, at which point I probably cussed and gave up any chance of this movie being good. The second was just minutes later during the fight between Batman and Superman, where I said out loud, "I hate him" as I watched what Bruce was doing. For a kid who grew up loving these characters, it was a real struggle to make it through the film.
The problem starts at the top with Snyder, and that's why I'm still on alert for JL, which already looks bad. If it feels bad too, that's not good. He just doesn't understand these characters, and it's a shame that WB hitched their wagon to a guy who is the modern definition of style over substance instead of someone who could actually tell stories with words and images, like a true director. Snyder would be a great cinematographer, but his utility as a director is limited.
WW is one of the most interesting characters here, and strangely it's because Snyder doesn't give us much background on her (she's a bit of a mystery in the film). I hesitate to think how he would have mangled her character had he been given the opportunity to delve into her backstory. We were spared.
WB must shoulder a lot of the blame here. They just tried to do too much with this one film. There are too many ideas and characters which are not explored sufficiently, and appear to have been introduced (and left hanging) just to be visited later as the universe develops. There's a force fed aspect to the whole thing which is unfortunate.
As you said, the most regrettable thing is how he managed to make DC's two most well known and loved characters essentially unlikeable. Hopefully the damage is not lasting.
But when people call MoS a shitty film, that irks me.
Sorry, but after what Nolan created, WB and DC deserve to be criticized for doing the exact polar opposite of his work with a series of films that have none of the vision, intellect, depth, heart or character that the Batman films had. It's a shame that outside of Burton's films (from over twenty years ago) and the promise of MoS that was never realized, the live-action DC films have been absolute turds. Unfortunately the output they have now, with stinkers like BvS and SS, are actually more representative of the poor standard they've always had with these characters for the past thirty years. Nolan was a mere fluke and stroke of luck, the exception to a very depressing rule.
Not knocking the film- I adore it- but seeing Superman in TRUE red & blue changes the tone a bit! It's how I'll watch it from now on, for sure!
I'll never forget how excited I was in the theater for both of these- especially BvS. As a lifetime comic reader, there were so many 'I can't believe they went there' moments, such as the nightmare sequence and the freaking FLASH arriving to warn Bruce, and Superman getting nuked, and last but not least: 'I believe you' (as soon as I saw the henchman with the M60 I knew they would do that!). Such comic inspired badassery happening in one of the old movies would have been unheard of.
I was loving every second; I remember that iconic shot of Batman, Superman & Wonder Woman all lined up ready fight Doomsday and I was literally getting anxious that it would be followed by a black screen saying 'to be continued'
I didn't want the movie to end!
I just see a sloppy movie that threw in a bunch of elements that never meshed together. As a fan I can't be bought over with shots of Batman and Superman fighting, flying Parademons or references to Darkseid. If the characters themselves are hollow or monstrous in their characterizations, I just can't connect to anything because I don't believe in the story being told. It doesn't help that all the major moments of the film were literally spoiled in the three main trailers, either. There were no surprises left, or at least good ones.
Even the above shot of the trinity is a shoddy green screen shot, indicative of Snyder's failed directorship. Instead of giving our heroes the reveal they deserved on a real set or in a real location (like Marvel did with the Avengers), like most of the film it's all a sloppy CGI recreation. And JL is following the same video game-looking style, part of why I can't be bothered to be excited at this point.
This is my Justice League:
(Look at all those colors!)
A good analysis of the Dark Knight Trilogy
There's only one thing I agree with you on. They for sure used The Death of Superman waaaay too soon. I'd rather they wait to use it at the end of Man of Steel 2 or the second Justice League. But who knows, maybe it'll workout well for the future movies and we just can't see that yet.
Everything else I don't really agree on. I'm not going to even touch the "batman the murder" subject, as I'm tired of arguing it and pointing out that Batman has always killed. I also believe that the warehouse fight was the best Batman has ever looked on screen!
I just don't see a sloppy film, only some flaws here and there. As for the trinity shot, I love it! Wonder Woman front and center like the badass she is. My only grip with the shot is Batman holding the gun. He should be holding a batarang or nothing at all for their first shot together but oh well.
Outside of being a major Batman fan, I'm by no means a DC fan boy. I've always been MARVEL and always will be, but I found BVS to be a nice change of pace for the superhero genre. The MCU is bright, colorful, and humorous. Which I love but with the way the DCEU was going it was different. It was darker, grim, and more serious. Apparently everyone just wants a MARVEL clone. It looks like the DCEU is obliging them from the looks of the Justice League trailer.
Still though, I'm excited for the future films from both MARVEL and DC.
Superman, as long as he's been around, is supposed to be a beacon of hope and the DCEU version can't even come close to claiming that. Batman, in his own way, is similarly a beacon of hope by showing that one ordinary man can rise up against corruption and defeat it. The DCEU has, so far, shown mopey versions of these hopeful characters who only really exist to tell a suicidal man to pull the trigger.
I don't read superhero comics to become depressed, and to take superhero movies in that direction is a disservice to the characters they're adapting.
I don't want a Marvel clone from these movies, but I would like good movies, period. The reason people don't like these films isn't because they're dark, because they're really not shocking in anything they have to display, it's because people like me and so many others look at them and see a universe of heroes that are barbaric. Batman literally runs over people in his batmobile, dismembers others with minigun bullets, and stabs, shoots and explodes his way through swarms of men while branding all the others for his own judgement, and what does the GCPD do? Nothing, apparently. And in the JL trailer Gordon is so chummy with Batman, cracking jokes about old times. No apparent mention of all the untold hundreds Batman has chosen to kill indiscriminately and in the most twisted ways imaginable, with no consequences from the law enforcement community whose tenets and trust he betrayed. He shouldn't be welcomed by a bat signal, he should be captured and shot.
Then you've got Superman, who, instead of actually working to gain people's trust like his true father told him, complains every step of the way about Earth's citizens aren't his people and that it isn't his planet. Instead of punching Lex through the stratosphere or at the very least, using his abilities to find his mother in seconds and save the day with ease, he goes off as a tool to kill Batman and tells Lois that he's just another bad man like all the rest. He has no idea what he's doing, and somehow can't act for himself. He needs other people to tell him what he is, because he's too daft to make up his mind about it. This is a far cry from the man in MoS, who actually smiled once or twice (*gasp!*) and who knew the man he needed to be to help the planet. Where that guy was in BvS, I haven't a clue.
Snyder seems to masturbate furiously at the idea of injecting this Machiavellian view of the world onto the heroes that is just tired and distasteful. Superman shouldn't reflect a sad world, he should rise above it, and not every superhero film can be made like Watchman. The tone doesn't mesh when your big message in a superhero film is that sometimes when you try to do good, you just end up hurting people, the exact thing Pa Kent tells Superman in BvS. What are kids expected to learn from this? Better to mope about problems instead of trying to fix them? It's more effective to kill than rehabilitate people who cross lines? The notion of "good" is a social construct that we should forget about, because we're all doomed to do bad?
It's these very hollow and misguided messages that have people upset with the film and how it chose to present icons who used to be the antithesis of who they appear to be in it.
Well said, @Agent007391. I honestly feel so bad for kids who will have this Batman and Superman as their views on these characters. There will be kids out there who will smile and thing it's so cool to see Batman mowing through crowds of bad guys, blood flying everywhere. And from Superman, maybe they'll take away from MoS and BvS that Pa Kent was right and you should hide the aspects of yourself that are special, instead of bothering to help anyone with them.
The DCEU can't even hold a candle to these works, and they should accept that. F*ck, just dress up Kevin Conroy and Tim Daly in the appropriate costumes and you've already got a better film. No, I won't accept icons of my childhood being destroyed just for the sake of putting them on the screen. That's a disservice to the characters and the fans, and to be thankful for it is to allow someone to smear sh*t on your face and be pleased about it.
Well I'm not gonna sit here and defend my reasoning for liking these movies, I've done that enough already. I like you grew up with the DCAU, but seriously, the films shouldn't have to copy the cartoons or even the TV shows. They should be their own animal. Subpar is hardly the word I would use to describe Batman and Superman. No matter how poorly handled it may be for each one, these characters are somewhat undergoing an arc, the redemption of Batman, and Clark becoming the Superman we all know and love, not to mention Affleck and Cavil are good in the roles. Nobody complained about Michael Keaton's Batman killing off people, or how Superman handled Zod and co in the second Superman film, the fact that people moan about these characters not being "the ones they grew up with" is utterly ridiculous. Like Bond, there have been many interpretations of these characters, and while tastes and preferences differ, to complain about them because they don't follow other portrayels is plain stupid.
Regardless of the work he has done and what you think of him and his films, this is very sad.
This gave me a chuckle. No, I don't feel moved to thanks for a bunch of hilariously ill made films that have little vision or artfulness to them in any category. I would much rather have no Batman or Superman films period if this is the best WB can drum up. I can watch the Nolan films endlessly and they scratch my itch for faithful and important films that actually have something to say about so many things. I don't need the DCEU in my life. The notion of just accepting bad things and "dealing with it" begets more shit. If you speak up, things change, but if you don't then nothing does.
After films like Nolan's, what Marvel has done with Spider-Man in the past and Captain America now, and how Fox closed off Logan's story, you had better believe I walk into films expecting them to meet a higher standard than a bunch of shoddy green screen and action that resembles toys being smashed together. Even when Marvel's output isn't as thematically or emotionally satisfying as some of their other output (that rank as the best of all-time), we can at least say that the characters are faithful and that the messages look to making a better world, something so many need to feel. The DCEU portrays a dark world with little hope in anything working. "Why bother," is the message I take away. Cap: Civil War came from a dark place and messed up things happen to the heroes in it, but the clear message throughout the film is one that values understanding, standing your ground and fighting for what you believe in. Heroes aren't made into monsters, their friends don't tell them to stop fighting for the lie of peace or hope, and they certainly don't try to kill each other because they don't take the time to understand who they are. I certainly couldn't call these films generic, just like I wouldn't when discussing the Bond films. The 60s era especially is as ungeneric as you can get, as those movies paved the way for a whole new genre of filmmaking.
The sadomasochistic torture porn of the DCEU just doesn't engage me, because it doesn't have anything to say that we need to hear right now. These figures are called superheroes for a reason. They have to actually be heroic and aspire to be what the world needs them to be. No amount of fans begging people to stop calling out badly made films is going to make me shut my mouth.
Than that's your opinion. Weather or not you go and see these movies doesn't matter, they still make the money they need and still get made. I'm just saying that people take the piss out of the DCEU and it's starting to get old now, we should start looking to the future, instead of nitpicking a film from every possible angle like some of the people on the forum, as well as any other place on the Internet. It's no secret that so far in the eyes of many the DCEU has been a let down, but ya know what? It probably has the most loyal fan base around these days who stick around for these movies and actually like them, and it's absoutely pathetic that people spend so much time dwelling on these films and nitpicking them. Not everybody is some film critic looking to rip movies apart, your looking at average moviegoers who want to watch a movie and escape, not rip the whole thing apart from the beginning to the end. Once again, just because YOU don't like how these characters are on screen, doesn't mean other people don't like it. It's also pretty pathetic that one can't express an opinion without coming under fire from other people who have nothing else to do but nitpick a film that's been beaten the shit out of enough. You all act like BvS is the worse thing to hit our screen, but do you remember 1997? Bat Nipples, Ice Puns, and forced Homosexual imagery. Or even other Marvel efforts? 2003 Daredevil, Xmen 3, every Fantastic Four movie, the 1990 Cap America movie. Let's not also act like the MCU is perfect, because it's not, you can go on about how genius the CAP movies are, but in my opinion, I think it went downhill after the first Cap movie, the MCU just became too jokey and flippant. Yes we have great genre defining films like Dark Knight and Logan, but cmon here, at the end of the day, these films offer escapism, enjoyable to some, to others not so much. If you don't like the DCEU than you should stop forcing yourself through that "torture porn", be open minded and let other people enjoy it, we're all adults, not the fanboy communities we see on YouTube and other sites.
@007ClassicBondFan, you're in overreaction mode here. Films are art, they're here to be discussed. BvS counts in that category, and let's not forget the amusing report that was leaked before the film came out where it was said WB thought the movie was too complex for Marvel fans to understand. If WB and DC think they've presented the holy grail of intellectual superhero drama here, let's pump the film for all its worth.
Fans of the film can go on all day about how bogus it is that it is being torn a new one, but we all go through this. There's a shocking amount of movies I adore that get shit on every day on this forum, the newest example being SP, but crying about how unfair it isn't won't change anything. Certain films hit with people and audiences have spoken on BvS in overwhelming degrees. I'm not going to stop being a critic of them, because it's one of my hobbies to do film analysis and I think I have enough authority on it to speak my mind. Whether people choose to listen to BvS dissenters is fine. A poster brought up interesting points and I was speaking about it with him, and we agreed at the major flaws of the film. That's the nature of art. Someone makes a creation, they release it and it becomes owned by audiences forever afterward.
If we're going to use the "it's all escapism, nothing more" argument, that art has a limited life. Films can give us a lot more than escape, most prominently having messages that can be powerful. A lack of such a message in BvS is part of the umbrage you see, and it's a fair criticism. People expect certain characters and properties to function in specific ways. As our modern myths, superhero adventures are to be like parables. If they already have no message or core that isn't hollow, they've lost the fight for legacy. It's no secret why BvS is laughed at in a lot of ways, or is seen as an embarrassing development that needs to be moved on from post-haste. It was a mess from the studio down, and horrible planned and realized in every department. As a consumer of art, I can say these things.
I'm not forcing myself to deal with the torture, someone brought up the film and I discussed it. I will probably never watch it again, but the film is out there and it's up for debate. We'll see after JL arrives if BvS was a hump in the road or if it was indicative of an overall shoddy vision that never had legs. Until then we'll all get on more harmoniously if we don't lose our minds over each other's views.
I'm not overreacting nor losing my mind over somebody else's view. I'm simply stating that these movies get the raw end of the deal when there have been much much worse comic book movies before. I'm not defending my reasoning for liking MOS or BVS; it all comes down to the fact that I simply found them enjoyable, you might not have been able to take away anything from them, but I did, my biggest takeaways from BvS was that;
A. Never go passing judgement without knowing who they really are (in the case of Batman's whole reasoning for disliking Superman)
B. It's never too late for redemption (Batman's "arc")
I mean it's not much but it's something. You were able to see all sorts of different things when examining DAF that I couldn't, it's merely the same thing here. Now to set the record straight, I don't LOVE these movies, I find them competent and enjoyable enough to sit there and say that their "good". I love movies like TDK, and the Early Burton Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, and X-Men movies. I know WB really dropped the ball on this one, and criticism isn't a bad thing of coarse, I'm just merely stating that I don't think there as bad as people make them out to be.
I try not to take these things too seriously, and with BvS I think I've failed at times, I'm very aware of that. The issue is on my part, as I have a lot wrapped up in my head when it comes to BvS. My ability to treat it like just any over film I didn't like is blocked out by the role that these characters have had in my life. As I kid I'd run around my yard in the sticky heat of a summer day in a Batman costume my mom made me, so my reaction to BvS was a very personal one that was unavoidable because I was so attached to the character from birth. It's something I have to deal with, and at times my disappointment will come out in my analysis of the film because I have spent so much of my life thinking about these characters through so many different mediums and I don't like seeing them being used in ways I don't support. In cases like this it's hard to just think about them as harmless films, because unfortunately they register as more important than just mere escapism vehicles for me. Bond films will receive the same sharp criticism from me because I have similar personal feelings wrapped up in the character, and I expect certain things from the films and the characters because I am so passionate about them. The ability to be impartial or objective is never possible, but especially not in these cases. That's a cross I bear, and I'm very open about it.
I think many BvS dissenters mirror my thoughts, as these characters mean a lot to us and for us, we don't like to see what is being done to them. We're not here to insult those that do enjoy the films, but from our perspective we're just disappointed at the moment, and as DC fans for life we wish we had what the Marvel fans have for their heroes. That's all, nothing sinister. It's just than in these cases our past histories and ties to these characters muddy objective waters surrounding these characters.
I understand, these were characters who I adored as a kid even before Bond, and I'd be lying if I was saying that I wasn't bothered by the really jarring characterizations, particularly with Batman because even though we've seen a murderous Batman before, I can agree saying that they took it too far in BVS. My first experience with the film was good, it was opening night and the first showing at my theatre. It wasn't until the following weeks that it became more and more jarring, it was really the Extended Cut that makes the movie barley plausible, and even then I'd need to watch it in two parts, because 3 and 1/2 hours long is ridiculous. Also I am very vocal about WB's track record with these films, it kills me to see faceless suits making these kind of decisions and tarnishing the reputations of these characters, I guess the only reason why I'm not so harsh on these movies is because I can see that they're really trying there best to be different and to not have that Marvel movie feel, and I just think it got in the way of the stories they try to tell, each film started out with great concepts that were just mishandled, a lot like the Brosnan Bond era after Goldeneye. I wouldn't say they were butchered, but they definitely did not reach the full potential, especially coming off the back of the Nolan Trilogy. I'd rather we at least get to see these characters in some capacity rather than wait another 10-15 years for WB to get their heads out of their asses, I'm just happy to live on a world where these characters are on screen, that's why I think we should at least be fortunate for their attempts. I will say that BVS and SS (to an even more extent) somewhat curbed my enthusiasm for WW, and JL, but maybe it's the optimistic side of me that makes me at least appreciate what these movies try to accomplish, but I'm really hoping they don't drop the ball with JL.
This is heartbreaking news. If anyone says they're sorry but happy he stepped down, just know that makes you a terrible person. A man's child just died and all you can think about is a movie. I only bring that up because I've seen people on other sites showing how happy they are for the DCEU now that Synder isn't part of it anymore. Sick pricks.
You should see the YouTube comment sections on videos of this topic, bunch of little shits. I feel bad for the man, I admire him for trying his best to make it through an incredibly tough scenario, and if he felt as if it was affecting his work then he knew what had to be done, and I respect Snyder a helluva lot for that. However I don't think he's completely done with the DCEU. Hearts out to the Snyders.
That's the internet for you. It's just moments like this that put a lot of our bullshit first world problems into perspective. All the months spent talking about a simple film and our issues with them, when a man has lost a real person in his life today. I have my issues with Snyder, but in junctures like these films are meaningless, and he's right to say that it's just a film and his family is what matters now. As someone who has dealt and continues to deal with depression, I completely sympathize with his family at the moment as they face what they must. It's utter bullshit, frankly, and it's a shame anyone has to deal with it.
The press and post production for the JL film will be enough, as will be the pressures to do better than BvS at the box office and with critics, but Snyder and co. will also have this tragedy in their minds come November too. I predict a very sweet dedication to his little girl at the end of the film, and hopefully the final product will be worthy of the tribute to her. It's depressing to see the sick reactions of people out there who make light of things like this, and who forget that real people with real lives are behind these projects and tragedies. Another embarrassing day for humanity...
Exactly, this is another one of the situations where they really, really are going to need to knock it out of the park with this film, I bed it'd be such a sweet payoff not only professionally, but I'm sure personally for Snyder. It was nice of WB to at least offer pushing back the release date, but equally nice of Snyder to step aside, I don't think he would've been able to keep handling it with all the stress and sadness that comes with losing a loved one. I've always maintained the notion that while he may not be an example of quality filmmaking, he must be a pretty nice guy who's just unfortunately gets all this negative stuff said about him, but for him to step aside on something which I'm certain was a passion project for him, so he can be with his family, and still ensure the film gets the proper release, just makes me respect how professional he is despite the obstacles that face him.
Plus I couldn't tell you how many comments I've seen on YouTube and other sites where people were praising this and the hiring of Joss Whedon before actually knowing what happened, and apologizing. Just makes them look stupid and immature. That being said, I'm just wondering how Wheadon will contribute to the film.