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I agree with your first point, completely in fact. When I wrote "our logic", I really meant "logic"; when I wrote "your logic", I meant "your flawed reasoning". I chose my words rhetorically rather than literally. ;)
I also agree with your second point; I used the phrase "to be afraid of" more in a philosophical sense than in the colloquial sense. I'm afraid of a lot of things myself, including big dogs, home invaders and being 'alone' between relationships. In my post, I merely addressed Risico's assertion that we cling to evolution out of fear. Regardless of whether one's afraid of death, of the vastness of the cosmos, of the future of mankind, ... science doesn't keep both the fact and theory of evolution intact out of fear of something. In science, we never observe and conclude because we are afraid of something. We may be afraid of the consequences of what we have observed, we may even get cold feet because of what we have just learned about the cosmos, but the conclusion of something along with the "clinging to it" happens regardless of our emotions.
Someone, however, who rejects specific scientific findings, often does so out of fear. "Climate change isn't real", "fast food doesn't give you cancer", "Earth isn't as uncomfortably old as cosmologists claim", "the universe isn't as big a place as astronomers claim", ... These statements more often than not come from a place of fear; denial can be a warm blanket for a frightened soul. Ignorance can be bliss.
So while I agree with literally everything you wrote, I hope I have clarified what I meant when typing my words--perhaps a little fast. ;) Thank you for pointing out possible confusion.
Guaranteed his next post will be ‘See you scientists can’t even agree. Therefore God must be true.’
We're not drones we don't have to agree on everything. We don't even have to agree on anything in fact.
But hope is an interesting concept, very often used as bargain money by priests and preachers, yet devoid of any value in itself.
I hope England will win the World Cup.
I believe England will win the World Cup.
Both of these statements are as valueless as each other when all the evidence suggests England won’t win the World Cup.
Hoping or believing that something will happen has no effect on whether it will happen. Science is cruel like that in that only deals dispassionately in material facts.
I hope I am completely wrong and God exists because rotting in a hole for eternity doesn’t sound much fun.
@Risico007 believes in God because he read the bible and found it more compelling than the God Delusion.
But God either exists or he doesn’t irrelevant of what we hope or believe so for me these are wooly concepts that have no real value in the scientific method.
And while both sides like to use extremes (no I don’t believe that with no god we would go around murdering each other nor do I believe that god is evil even though there is evil in the world) I can give far more real temptations like the hot blonde in accounting or sneaking off from work to play a video game on my phone etc as long as I am not caught no issue right well as a Christian I am caught by God no matter who else knows or doesn’t know
You are right and you phrased it as I intended it. :) Next time I have to reread before I post.
When would he have reached the moon (if at all) if it was not for JFK's hopeful and visionary speech?
Another example although this turned out to be a let down:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Audacity_of_Hope
Plus imagining the results of our work (cancer cure) gives us hope and, therefore , speeds up the work.
Religion provides the option of hope (via prayer) but provides zero reward for it. Science, and our understanding of it, provides hope and often offers massive rewards.
We’ve been ‘hoping’ to cure cancer for decades now haven’t we? Still haven’t done it. In that respect hope has just as much value as prayer.
Can you explain what is so attractive about atheism?
Yes, JFK provided an ambition but also a hopeful environment:
"We choose to go to the moon" - not "we will do our best to get to the moon" - there was hope that we would achieve the ambition. How many ambitions are achieved without any hope to provide motivation.
PS atheism is attractive as it allows humans to be grown ups and free to think freely and it's also true. (which is nice)
Certainly hope trumps belief given that belief is just acceptance of what you are told rather than the aspiration and advancement hope brings.
Well clearly. I was more aiming the question at @Risico007 as surely there’s nothing attractive about giving up your comfort blankets and stepping outside into the cold, albeit refreshing, wind of atheism?
@Risico007 Your God's "moral" guide is a one size fits all chastity belt. That's not morality if you act out of fear of punishment. Besides when it comes to adultery it can sometimes be excusable, even justified.
What can I say I love women my wife included but the blonde at the gym the brunette at work the dirty blonde at work etc seriously I could have a field day and say things that would shock all of you but as I listen to the word of god I realize just how bad those desires are how my wife should be the only woman in my heart and in my mind and I should rise above my lustful desires inspire of how good it feels anyways long story short of you think I am some sort of saint or I think I am holier or better or smarter or anything really no I’m not and again I know full well you all will take this post and use as a rope to hang me but I will continue to be honest and when asked directly why atheism is attractive because the Blonde on the 3rd floor is attractive because my friend from upstate New York is attractive etc
I want them all but it doesn’t matter I made commitments to the woman I love and I will uphold them the best I can..... of course I said all this a few pages back but meh
Apart, I assume, from the fact that you all agree that's there's no God? Or is even that debatable now?
Being an atheist doesn't mean you automatically abandon any moral standards. You could become an atheist and then shag around and cheat on your wife and that would make you a prick and being an atheist wouldn't be any sort of defence that made you any less of a prick.
And why does being religious make you not shag all these dirty blondes throwing themselves at you? Just because you are scared you might burn in hell rather than out of any loyalty to your wife and your wedding vows?
An atheist does not say there's no God. Only that he does not believe in God. That's an important distinction. To be an atheist it is the only requirement: a disbelief in God. Nothing else. You can be socialist, conservative, heterosexual, homosexual, you can be vegan, what have you.
@Risico007 Go on and tell your wife that you're faithful because God asked you to then. See how she takes it. I'm faithful for a number of reasons: not wanting to hurt her, not feeling the need to go elsewhere, I had my experiences when I was a single man, etc. If circumstances were different: being in a sexless marriage or a loveless one, or a marriage of convenience, then that would be a different matter entirely. A cousin of my wife cheated on her husband, but she was in a toxic relationship and her husband had become violent, so I consider her actions perfectly justified, especially since she remained a loving and caring mother. And she is also a Christian (C of E) but I challenge any priest to scold her in front of me.
Wow just shockingly wow
Funny you mention atheists being judgmental jerks while Christians despise all gay people just for who they choose to love. The irony in this is astounding.
I am talking about this thread again where have I been anti gay
You didn't say that, your post was about as general as it gets. Even still, that general logic doesn't work here, either, as this has been a heated religion vs. atheism debate for 96 full pages now.
I fail to see how what I said is judgemental. Un-Christian certainly. I will even say that the notion of sin is one I reject and by your own description your God is morally depraved. And I'm more moral than him whether he exists or not.
But at least be man enough to take control of your own life and the decisions you make rather than hiding behind God. You clearly have the desire to cheat on your wife with all these dirty blondes but it's your loyalty to God rather than her that stops you? Hmm. What's the view like up there on the moral high ground?
"God told me to be faithful to my wife"
"God told me that abortion is wrong"
"God told me not to give an injection to my sick son"
"God told me to perform FGM"
"God told me to make a bomb"
"Gold told me to invade Iraq"
etc, etc etc,
@Risico007 If the word of God is true (which it obviously is), would you do anything he asked?
Do you have any self derived moral code or is it 100% derived from God?
What would you say to the Irish baker who refuses to make a cake for a gay couple? (you worship the same God)
What would you say to a suicide bomber who says that they are deriving their moral code from God?
What makes your moral code superior to theirs?
PS https://www.thoughtco.com/divorce-rates-for-atheists-248494
Thanks for the link.
I remember going to a wedding a while back between a couple whom my then girlfriend knew. It was the most mawkish and saccharine show of religious devotion I’ve ever seen. I don’t recall any mention of the couple from the priest, it was more of a ‘Glastonbury for God’ and they were lapping it up. It was one of the most horrific two hours I can remember.
Four weeks later, my girlfriend tells me, aghast, that he’d been banging the violinist from the band that played during the ceremony. Marriage over.
I’m sure it’s what God intended, though.
Also by not taking up the dirty blondes on their offer, and thus making them dirty, are you not contravening His plan for them to burn in hell as harlots?
Or do you actually have a hotline to Him like the Batphone when he gives you strict instructions as to what you should be doing?
A man rapes and murders someone you personally care about you are left alone in a room with that man holding a 9 mm and told to do what you think is right.
What would you do Wiz or Lud? What would the moral thing be?