The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
edited July 21 in General Discussion Posts: 10,298
6db2d1a224f1189e17b6db18bbea-is-religion-for-people-who-need-faith-from-some-thing-other-than-themselves.jpg

OK, so to take the sting out of my 'Do you believe in ghosts?' thread which seems to have yet again mutated into a discussion on science versus religion here is a space of this community in which members can, if they so wish, come and discuss all aspects of religion, faith, belief, religion versus science or whatever else. I have thought on numerous occasions that such a thread as this was urgently needed on our community here and I still hold to this belief, hence this thread.

I know that an earlier thread on this subject was deleted almost immediately after its creation, but I think this community now needs such a space to concentrate this important discussion. It is open to people of all faiths and none here on this community. I appeal to mods and admins to let it remain, unless every thread on the community have leaching of religious discussion onto unrelated matters.

Hopefully this space will be used in an appropriate respectful manner, lest we lose it completely. I know our members here will strive to ensure that this will be the case.

Sincerely,

Dragonpol.
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Comments

  • barryt007barryt007 Kicking Kara 'brain dead' Milovy off the top of a Ferris Wheel in Vienna
    Posts: 9,345
    Oh dear....I can see I am going to need a suit of armour and a bloody big sword if im to contribute in this snake pit of a thread.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Oh dear....I can see I am going to need a suit of armour and a bloody big sword if im to contribute in this snake pit of a thread.

    I don't forsee a snake pit, but unrelated threads (even those on the existence or otherwise of ghosts) suffer from the leaching in of an unrelated discussion on science and religion and faith. Here at least is an open space in which this subject can be debated in a hopefully grown-up, reasoned and mature manner.
  • barryt007barryt007 Kicking Kara 'brain dead' Milovy off the top of a Ferris Wheel in Vienna
    edited July 21 Posts: 9,345
    The ghost thread is being bashed about a bit I must say,thats why I haven't contributed much,even though I used to be a paranormal investigator, a moderator on a paranormal forum,and have a degree in Parapsychology.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The ghost thread is being bashed about a bit I must say,thats why I haven't contributed much,even though I used to be a paranormal investigator, a moderator on a paranormal forum,and have a degree in Parapsychology.

    Yes, but with the creation of this thread the side issue of religion has somewhere where it can be better contained. If we can have threads on science and ghosts, surely one on religion and faith is not out of the question? I'd certainly hope there was more free speech allowed on our community than that in the end analysis.
  • edited July 21 Posts: 2,338
    Dragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    4:32pm Posts: 10,035Flag

    patb wrote: »
    Yes, just like the marketing guys in Coke and McDonalds are following their orders. Why wait til adults are mature, educated and more able to weigh up the facts. Can anyone name a religion that does not target the young?


    Well, if a child were to die in childhood, religions believe it is better to teach its members young. Just like we are learned to read and write young. Not everyone makes it to adulthood, after all.
    Quote

    Yes, I know what religions believe. Goodness, what a dreadful thing, for a child to die before having a religious belief of their own. We would not want God put in a difficult position of having to make a choice of what to do with a seven year old agnostic. And I dont accept for a second the comparison between learning to read and write and religious indoctrination. The fact that they can be compared and given the same status is pretty telling. Imagine what a better place our planet would be if we left our kids to make up their own minds and spent the spare time letting them read and write.We can only dream
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!
    Posts: 13,556
    This thread isn't needed. The ghost thread is good enough to cover this subject too. A belief in dead people come back to walk among us or a belief in an after-life where dead people walk, what's the difference?
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    This thread isn't needed. The ghost thread is good enough to cover this subject too. A belief in dead people come back to walk among us or a belief in an after-life where dead people walk, what's the difference?

    Now, come on. Might as well close the ghosts thread if it is just going to have the constant leaching of a science versus religion into it!
  • Posts: 2,338
    Its letting religion off the hook if you automatically assume that ghosts are the work of God. The existence of ghosts and the existance of God - completely seperate.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    patb wrote: »
    Its letting religion off the hook if you automatically assume that ghosts are the work of God. The existence of ghosts and the existance of God - completely seperate.

    I obviously agree, hence my creation of two separate threads for two disparate topics.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 941
    Bless your hearts!
    wayne-newton-bill-dunkley.jpg
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    edited July 21 Posts: 10,298
    Bless your hearts!
    wayne-newton-bill-dunkley.jpg

    You see, religion and faith can be discussed in a light-heartened manner!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!
    Posts: 13,556
    I agree.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree.

    I'm not obviously not mischief-making. I really do believe the community now requires a space set apart from other threads on other unrelated matters (even ghosts!) in which to articulately discuss matters of religion and faith. And here it is.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.
    Posts: 25,603
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree.

    I'm not obviously not mischief-making. I really do believe the community now requires a space set apart from other threads on other unrelated matters (even ghosts!) in which to articulately discuss matters of religion and faith. And here it is.

    The problem is that, literally every single time, it turns into childish name-calling and runs its course fairly quickly. It'd be one thing if we created 100 pages of level-headed discussion on the topic, as impossible as it is.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree.

    I'm not obviously not mischief-making. I really do believe the community now requires a space set apart from other threads on other unrelated matters (even ghosts!) in which to articulately discuss matters of religion and faith. And here it is.

    The problem is that, literally every single time, it turns into childish name-calling and runs its course fairly quickly. It'd be one thing if we created 100 pages of level-headed discussion on the topic, as impossible as it is.

    Well, we seem to have manged something a bit like that on ghosts, so let us see how it goes on religion and faith. I don't think its ever been tried before on this community. If it fails, we can always have it closed down for a while - or for good!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.
    Posts: 25,603
    I definitely think people are more likely to turn nasty discussing something like religion or what have you than they are a topic like ghosts. Time will tell, though.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe GOTHAM IS YOURS!
    Posts: 4,903
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree.

    I'm not obviously not mischief-making. I really do believe the community now requires a space set apart from other threads on other unrelated matters (even ghosts!) in which to articulately discuss matters of religion and faith. And here it is.

    The problem is that, literally every single time, it turns into childish name-calling and runs its course fairly quickly. It'd be one thing if we created 100 pages of level-headed discussion on the topic, as impossible as it is.

    I don't spend time on these kinds of threads, so I can't judge, but from what I have seen 99% of the name-calling and childishness has come from one side. That's just my perspective on the matter.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I definitely think people are more likely to turn nasty discussing something like religion or what have you than they are a topic like ghosts. Time will tell, though.

    Yes, nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say. I hope we can avoid squabbles, but the leaching of this topic of religion and faith into other discussion here is frankly unfair and something does need to be done about it. This thread is my contribution to some sort of solution to the issue.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.
    Posts: 25,603
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree.

    I'm not obviously not mischief-making. I really do believe the community now requires a space set apart from other threads on other unrelated matters (even ghosts!) in which to articulately discuss matters of religion and faith. And here it is.

    The problem is that, literally every single time, it turns into childish name-calling and runs its course fairly quickly. It'd be one thing if we created 100 pages of level-headed discussion on the topic, as impossible as it is.

    I don't spend time on these kinds of threads, so I can't judge, but from what I have seen 99% of the name-calling and childishness has come from one side. That's just my perspective on the matter.

    I've seen it delivered from both sides the few dozen times we've tried these threads over the years. Once one person from either side takes it to "that level," the whole thread turns into it.

    I'm not optimistic, but hopefully it can remain civilized.

    If not, I'm calling Pam.

    GW492H210
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    By all means, pull the plug on it if it gets to "that level". I'd be the first to say that.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe GOTHAM IS YOURS!
    Posts: 4,903
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree.

    I'm not obviously not mischief-making. I really do believe the community now requires a space set apart from other threads on other unrelated matters (even ghosts!) in which to articulately discuss matters of religion and faith. And here it is.

    The problem is that, literally every single time, it turns into childish name-calling and runs its course fairly quickly. It'd be one thing if we created 100 pages of level-headed discussion on the topic, as impossible as it is.

    I don't spend time on these kinds of threads, so I can't judge, but from what I have seen 99% of the name-calling and childishness has come from one side. That's just my perspective on the matter.

    I've seen it delivered from both sides the few dozen times we've tried these threads over the years. Once one person from either side takes it to "that level," the whole thread turns into it.

    I'm not optimistic, but hopefully it can remain civilized.

    If not, I'm calling Pam.

    GW492H210

    Fair enough. like I say, I'm only judging based on a few occasions of actually reading these discussions.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited July 21 Posts: 941
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    If not, I'm calling Pam.
    Well, that's putting it mildly @Creasy47.
    https://therazzmatazz.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/desmond-llewelyn-q.png

  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache. Writer @ http://www.thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk
    Posts: 10,298
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    If not, I'm calling Pam.
    We'll, that's putting it mildly @Creasy47.
    https://therazzmatazz.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/desmond-llewelyn-q.png

    Forgive me, Father, for we all have sinned.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 6,834
    In deference to Draggers' wishes I have moved my responce to these quotes from the ghost thread here:
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Or that science is an inadequate means to explain everything. What's to say scientific theories are right for all time? They're right until someone else comes along and disproves them. They were thought up by man, hence they are fallible and subject to change. It's therefore not something I would have 100% faith it, yet many treat science as the Gospel used to be treated.

    Arguing that not to have 100% faith in science because it doesn't have all the answers is fine but then we all know where we end up if follow the religious down this path: having 100%faith in God which doesn't have any of the answers. And that is sheer lunacy. Just because science cannot explain something it doesn't automatically follow that therefore God (or ghosts in this particular debate) must be the answer.

    How do planes stay in the sky? How can you skydive and not die? How can you survive open heart surgery?

    All these are not down to 'faith' they are down to science and mankind's, admittedly pretty basic and feeble, grasp of the elements and the laws of the universe.

    In our examples above:

    The plane stays in the sky because of our understanding of aerodynamics and thrust. If a person of faith was designing a plane why would it need wings or an engine? You could design it in the shape of a brick and build it out of lead and it would still fly.

    Why bother with a parachute? Just have faith you'll land on your feet, straighten your cufflinks and walk away.

    Heart surgery - I'm sure you could just give a chimpanzee a rusty spade and with a nice big dollop of faith - hey presto - he's done as good a job as a surgeon who has studied for years and the advances in medicine which have evolved over thousands of years.

    'Faith' is a term that is bandied about like it's something to be proud of when it's actually intellectual Luddism and frankly a nefarious brake on human progress.

    If Theresa May came on the news and said 'Don't worry about Brexit, Isis or North Korea just have a bit of faith' she'd be ridiculed (more even than she is already) and have to go. We justly celebrate scientists and thinkers who help the progress of the human race by giving them Nobel prizes yet at the same time we are constantly instructed to have respect for people who would be happier if our species had never set foot out of its cave and just worshipped the sun. Sorry it's one or the other and it's time people chose a camp - respect reason or blinkeredness.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    John 20:29 (KJV)

    Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Poor old Doubting Thomas the classic scapegoat for the weak mindedness of the 'faith' movement - castigated by Christians (and Jesus himself!!) for having the temerity to ask for something as outrageous as evidence.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    This thread isn't needed. The ghost thread is good enough to cover this subject too. A belief in dead people come back to walk among us or a belief in an after-life where dead people walk, what's the difference?

    I agree.

    The real debate is not are ghosts real or God v science it is actually thinking v ignorance, reason v self delusion, enlightenment v darkness.


  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 941
    So which side are you on? Not clear to me.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 6,834
    So which side are you on? Not clear to me.

    I'm a member of Westboro Baptist Church who flirts with signing up for Isis. They both speak a lot of truth.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 941
    Still not clear.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!
    Posts: 13,556
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    John 20:29 (KJV)

    Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Isaac Asimov, "The Threat Of Creationism, 1981

    Some creationists put all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for an eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radioactivity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion. What kind of a Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 13.6 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that included the creation and development of life on Earth.

    Well, it's your book against mine. ;-)
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 941
    Not to be just flip or contrary, but the key word invoked by Isaac Asimov is "some". Both "sides" are worth consideration.
  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    Posts: 2,507
    I am a humanist celebrant, so I conduct non-religious weddings and funerals in Northern Ireland. I'm originally from England and moving here nine years ago was something of a culture shock, especially when it comes to religion being much more of a part of daily life.

    However it is a very rewarding line of work and the feedback we receive from people who attend either kind of ceremony is exceptionally positive, even if those people themselves have religious beliefs. And I'm happy to say that demand is constantly growing and 2017 has been the busiest year to date.
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