Do you believe in ghosts?

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  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,597
    Prof. Walter Kotschnig told Holyoke College students to keep their minds open—“but not so open that your brains fall out.”
    There is an infinite amount of stuff that has no proof, they are just ideas. You cant waste your life away giving credence to all of these ideas. Just a waste of life.
    I'll give out another one:
    "Some pigs can fly." Anyone want to be open minded about that? Anyone have any evidence that its not true ? Anyone tried to research it themselves ?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Have you really seen that?
  • Posts: 4,597
    Just for the sake of discussion, imagine if I said yes.

    Would that make it more likely that some pigs could fly? Would it make the miracle of pigs flying possible because I had claimed I had seen it? Would anyone take me at face value? Would it not be sensible and grown up to consider other options?

    I'm a wind up merchant
    I am genuinely mistaken
    I am deluded
    etc
    These options would have to be considered first before moving on to consider the original statement as they are all more likely:

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @patb, about the pig thing, what length of time does an object or thing have to be suspended in mid-air to be classified in your mind as "taking flight"? If it's less than 1.5 seconds I think we can argue that throwing a pig off a barn roof in a strong, forward motion-as opposed to dropping it-may give us a close enough measure to confirm flight.

    Thoughts?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    So flying pigs is the same to you as ghosts. This is the kind of rhetoric I was talking about.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,597
    Thats another perfect example: one person's "flight" may be another persons "falling", so the claim has been mis-interpreted. A mix up re the interpretation of words is far far more likely than a genuine pig flight. So that option should also be taken more seriously.

    People do this all the time re predictions. One persons prediction is another persons co-incidence. The facts are the same but they are interpreted differently.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It could be a pig in an aeroplane.
  • @patb, about the pig thing, what length of time does an object or thing have to be suspended in mid-air to be classified in your mind as "taking flight"? If it's less than 1.5 seconds I think we can argue that throwing a pig off a barn roof in a strong, forward motion-as opposed to dropping it-may give us a close enough measure to confirm flight.

    Thoughts?

    That's not flying, that's falling with style. ;)
  • Posts: 4,597
    There, its easy. Start to consider the other options: Perhaps the pig is falling? Perhaps the pig is getting assistance from another source? This is exactly the type of analysis that should be applied to ghosts. There are so many more likely explanations that need to be investigated.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,413
    It could be a pig in an aeroplane.

    Damn, I was going to suggest that.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    So flying pigs is the same to you as ghosts. This is the kind of rhetoric I was talking about.

    I'm taking the piss, obviously, but why I do it could be because of the kind of rhetoric or thinking you're talking about.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited October 2016 Posts: 2,138
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.

    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    That one was for patb.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Asia doesn t exist. Where s the proof?
    Exactly In fact I have seen picture of UK and heard people from there but I have never been personally so I don't think it exists either.

    Many Scots share that view. That's the way I feel about Oklahoma...except I've been there :( ...my only solace is as long as I don't look at or acknowledge Oklahoma it doesn't exist.

    Ghost on the other hand I'm not sure.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    edited October 2016 Posts: 13,384
    On contacting the dead kid.
    How many times was was the experiment repeated ?
    And did those experiments give similar results ?
    Was more than one recording device used ?
    How many independent witnesses, took part ?
    How many independent investigators, examined the recording ?
    Odd, said kid didn't ask for his Mummy ? I thought they might
    Have had a Bond of some sort.
    Or .....
    Did a couple of guys, decided it would be funny to put a mother
    Through, even more trauma. Of possibly hearing the anguish of
    Her child ?
    Sadly playing at being a scientific investigator, is not the same as
    Retrieving professional, useable evidence. As far as I can see there's still
    Just as much evidence for @patb's flying pigs.
    With that, I'll slip back Into the shadows.
  • Posts: 14,753
    No. Although I love ghost stories and horror stories.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    delete
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Still waiting for anything more than anecdotal evidence.

    Things like Oklahoma, tectonic plates and black holes all have wads of proof and evidence backing them up but all ghosts have (despite being a part of human culture and folklore for centuries before the above were even conceived),even now, are random people saying 'You'll never guess what I saw'.

  • Posts: 14,753
    Don't people realise that the greatest evil in this world at the moment is caused by adults believing in infantile s***?

    Well f**king said.

    When I was a kid I used to have an old couple live next to us and the old man died. About 3 months later I kicked my ball into their garden. I shinned over the fence to get it and when I looked up I swear he was in the window watching me. It spooked me out at the time but of course later I rationalised it as a child's fertile mind combining the fact that I was doing something slightly naughty (climbing over his fence for which he used to bollock us) and the natural scariness of anything to do with death.

    I certainly didn't think a more credible explanation was that he had come back from the afterlife to scowl at me.

    This sort of thing is great fun for kids but to still be believing in such things as ghosts, tooth fairy, the Loch Ness Monster and God once you get past 13 is pretty tragic.

    Has there ever even been a case in history where loads of people had believed in something without the slightest shred of evidence and society had laughed at them for years only for the evidence finally come to light and vindicate them?

    Stuff like black holes sound ridiculous but after scientists work at it for long enough they come up with enough evidence to prove their existence yet with things such as ghosts people have been looking at them for centuries yet we are no better off than when we started. All we have is anecdotal evidence from people who say they saw something. And in their heads maybe they did - the mind is a febrile and vibrant place - but seeing something in your subconscious or the mind playing tricks on you is certainly not the same as it actually existing.


    Your childhood story could make one hell of a ghost story.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,597
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2016 Posts: 17,620
    OK, Exhibit B from You Tube and our very own Yaphet Kotto on the evidence for the existence of ghosts.

    Here is the backstory:

    On his first visit to the Greensides farm, Yaphet Kotto. Along with five thousand people witnessed the sun dancing in the sky, spinning and turning and throwing off light in every direction, the owners of the Farm John and Sheila Greensides, as thousands of others believed it was one of the many apparitions that had been taking place on the farm, while Kotto believes what he saw was an unidentified flying object with no religious connotations at all, except when reports came back to Kotto that a woman was on the roof of a nearby church walking back and forth ,he filmed it. Now today faced with a 1995 letter from Archbishop Spence of the Kingston archdiocese in which he says, "It is the wish of the owners of the farm at Marmora that publicity not is given to the farm or its events, and I concur in this judgment." I'm not going to allow myself to be dictated to anymore by religious or church officials, I know what I saw and I standby it, those who say it was a miracle that's cool, I believe it was a UFO over the farm, What that was over the roof of the church? I cant say, I'm not a Catholic, but I'm NOT going to let Archbishop Spence tell me what the hell to do, the government and the church should start coming clean about this kind of phenomenon instead of the constant stream of cover-ups and lies.

    Here is the video:

  • Posts: 14,753
    patb wrote: »
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

    I would add to this that however sincere is the grieving mother, her own experience and emotional state make her testimony very unreliable. Same with the person wishing to create is own ghost watch show. There is here a huge risk of confirmation bias. It does not mean ghosts are not real. It means that this story is at best poor evidence for their existence.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Sadly for those who believe, truly believe in the paranormal. No amount of
    reasoned, scientific discussion, sensible explanations will ever be enough to
    disprove the " phenomenon " . A guy with a phone, is all the empirical evidence
    they need.
    Sorry @Dragonpol we agree on many things but not this subject.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    OK, Exhibit B from You Tube and our very own Yaphet Kotto on the evidence for the existence of ghosts.

    Here is the backstory:

    On his first visit to the Greensides farm, Yaphet Kotto. Along with five thousand people witnessed the sun dancing in the sky, spinning and turning and throwing off light in every direction, the owners of the Farm John and Sheila Greensides, as thousands of others believed it was one of the many apparitions that had been taking place on the farm, while Kotto believes what he saw was an unidentified flying object with no religious connotations at all, except when reports came back to Kotto that a woman was on the roof of a nearby church walking back and forth ,he filmed it. Now today faced with a 1995 letter from Archbishop Spence of the Kingston archdiocese in which he says, "It is the wish of the owners of the farm at Marmora that publicity not is given to the farm or its events, and I concur in this judgment." I'm not going to allow myself to be dictated to anymore by religious or church officials, I know what I saw and I standby it, those who say it was a miracle that's cool, I believe it was a UFO over the farm, What that was over the roof of the church? I cant say, I'm not a Catholic, but I'm NOT going to let Archbishop Spence tell me what the hell to do, the government and the church should start coming clean about this kind of phenomenon instead of the constant stream of cover-ups and lies.

    Here is the video:


    And this shows what precisely?

    A trick of the light? A hoax? It looks to me that there is a third tower with an onion dome that is under peculiar light conditions. But people see what they want to I guess.

    The very best you can say is it shows something inexplicable but there are a million and one hypotheses you would have to test before coming to the conclusion 'OK the only rational explanation must be that it is a ghost'.

    It's appalling logic to say 'I can't explain something therefore that is proof ghosts exist.'
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,323
    It's appalling logic to say 'I can't explain something therefore that is proof ghosts exist.'

    @TheWizardOfIce, same with, "I'm too stupid to understand science so I'm going to call something *an act of God*".

  • BennyBenny keeping tabs on youAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,723
    Ditto
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,597
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/WHY-WE-BELIEVE-GOD-S/dp/0984493212

    This book is poorly titled as it actually deals with why humans beleive in many things, worth a read. I will leave you to judge which is the more valuable? Mr Kotto's holiday video or this lecture from the author.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,620
    patb wrote: »
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/WHY-WE-BELIEVE-GOD-S/dp/0984493212

    This book is poorly titled as it actually deals with why humans beleive in many things, worth a read

    Thank you. That sounds interesting reading.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,597
    no worries, to be honest, the lecture is a great summary and you almost dont need to buy the book to get a general picture from the lecture but the book has more hard research to back itself up.
    Without wishing to upset some forum members "Why do some people beieve in ghosts?" is a much more interest question than "do ghosts exist?"
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    That book is all in your imagination.
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