Do you believe in ghosts?

13468931

Comments

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2016 Posts: 20,656
    Murdock wrote: »
    I still believe in science and physics as well as spirits. What's so bad about that?

    Because, @Murdock, if I didn't know you better, I'd say you could then be at the front line of some goofy attempt to abuse rather than use science with the purpose of rationalising the existence of ghosts. You'd be submitting half-truths and false-truths which may sound 'clever' enough to many who are subsequently fooled into thinking that science has proven the existence of ghosts. The Internet is littered with pseudo-scientific support for Creationism, alien presence on Earth, ... Those who spread fantasy can at least have the decency to communicate said fantasy via the typical tools and jargon of fantasy. To chop up science, pick the elements that are useful and clumsily piece together an incoherent "scientific" theory for the supernatural is an insult to those who produce empirical evidence, search for repeatable patterns, formulate hypotheses, submit those hypotheses to a rigid set of experiments and peer evaluation and then, perhaps, draw a conclusion.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,470
    Of course. Believers often aren't in the business of questioning, while science is all about asking questions and testing the limits of knowledge.

    If I was a believer, I would deny to high heaven what science had come up with as a retort to my beliefs. If all my heart and soul was invested in the idea that my life had a great meaning, that I would be going to heaven when I died and that I would be able to see all the friends and family I've lost...Well good lord, you wouldn't be able to tell me where to sign fast enough.

    A little education, and a lot of clarity and growing up in certain areas, however, and a lot of long nights filled with depression and anxiety make the truth come to you mighty quick. Come to think of it, I can't really remember believing in anything like a God or anything of that ilk in the first place. Everything faith wise began and ended with Santa when I was a kid. Belief always comes from that same place that believing in Santa does, though. It's a comforting idea and image to cling to when the world fails to make any sense to you. The church is a meeting ground for people to find the meaning they need to have in their lives and need to believe to get through the day with any modicum of hope, because the alternative-of none of it being true-is too much to bear the thought of.

    But once the veil is removed and you know, you know for good, and then nothing else really feels the same afterward. It's quite empty feeling actually, and I think as good as knowledge is to have, feeling empty can often be the biggest result of acquiring it. There's a great darkness to being studious and well learned, because before long the stories we tell ourselves as a culture soon reveal themselves to be just that-stories, and nothing more.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,141
    @DarthDimi, Well I wouldn't say I believe in creationism, far from it. And I'm not saying I'm right in what I say. I'm not trying to say I'm right and others are wrong. I'm just saying I've experienced things in my dreams and they give me some sort of personal belief in something. I don't let that influence my day to day functions mind you, it's just a personal tidbit.
  • Posts: 4,498
    "I'm not saying I'm right in what I say"

    So, do ghosts exist or not?

    Just for the record, I am saying that I am right in what I say.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    edited October 2016 Posts: 16,141
    They exist in some form or another. I'll leave it at that.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,470
    I think those on the non-believer side could be far more upstanding in how they respond to posts of believers. There's no reason to get nasty and equate believers to asylum patients. That kind of classlessness looks good on nobody.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2016 Posts: 20,656
    That's fine, @Murdock. Obviously I'm not here to tell you what you're allowed to think.

    But as most of these posts are debating the reality of ghosts, I insist on being the last man standing. For the life of me, I can't believe what I'm reading in some posts! This isn't as innocent as people may think. Even the slightest ounce of faith in the existence of an afterlife renders one potentially dangerous, for if that belief is passed on to offspring, and if said offspring runs with it in more extreme ways, we might end up with world leaders who are prone to superstition and whatnot. We really wouldn't want that, now would we? Are we going to put ghost believers in command of our military fleets, of an arsenal of nuclear weapons, of our tax money, ... ?

    "Sir, you still need to sign that peace treaty for ..."
    "Not today, Shirley. The ghost of Aunt Dolly paid me a visit tonight and whispered in my ear that I should nuke Cuba for the benefit of our children."
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,141
    I haven't really paid attention to the other posts so I can't really say. I was just putting my two cents in. I think it's more of a subconscious thing anyway.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,470
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That's fine, @Murdock. Obviously I'm not here to tell you what you're allowed to think.

    But as most of these posts are debating the reality of ghosts, I insist on being the last man standing. For the life of me, I can't believe what I'm reading in some posts! This isn't as innocent as people may think. Even the slightest ounce of faith in the existence of an afterlife renders one potentially dangerous, for if that belief is passed on to offspring, and if said offspring runs with it in more extreme ways, we might end up with world leaders who are prone to superstition and whatnot. We really wouldn't want that, now would we? Are we going to put ghost believers in command of our military fleets, of an arsenal of nuclear weapons, of our tax money, ... ?

    "Sir, you still need to sign that peace treaty for ..."
    "Not today, Shirley. The ghost of Aunt Dolly paid me a visit tonight and whispered in my ear that I should nuke Cuba for the benefit of our children."

    To be fair, it's already happened. You'd be shocked and maybe surprised at how religious so many in government are. In America this is incredibly evident.

    I think it's important to understand why people think like that, though. Which I haven't seen a lot of sympathy for in some respects.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,498
    Yes, many believers seem to focus on the chilly, spooky, thrill side of ghosts and have not considered the full implications of ghosts. Interesting that our ghost stories seem to be focussed in the classic type of buildings in good old historical UK.
    But consider the deserts of Ethiopia and other areas hit by dreadful famine. How many hundreds of thousands of humans (including kids) have died in horrible pain and agony? These deserts should be awash with ghosts? Are ghost hunters heading out there? No, they stick to little pubs, castles and all the other Scooby Doo type backdrops. If people want to believe in ghosts, then they really should then go on and consider all of the impications of that belief.
    PS anyone spotted ghosts of cavemen? no reason why not.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    edited October 2016 Posts: 28,470
    patb wrote: »
    Yes, many believers seem to focus on the chilly, spooky, thrill side of ghosts and have not considered the full implications of ghosts. Interesting that our ghost stories seem to be focussed in the classic type of buildings in good old historical UK.
    But consider the deserts of Ethiopia and other areas hit by dreadful famine. How many hundreds of thousands of humans (including kids) have died in horrible pain and agony? These deserts should be awash with ghosts? Are ghost hunters heading out there? No, they stick to little pubs, castles and all the other Scooby Doo type backdrops. If people want to believe in ghosts, then they really should then go on and consider all of the impications of that belief.

    I'd say it comes from a far more emotional place. People connect the existence of ghosts to those they've lost; grandfathers and grandmothers, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters. It's a comforting thought that maybe a chance exists to see those who've departed again in another life.

    Some skeptics are so overly scientific in their retorts to believers that they become just as heartless and cold as the numbers they jot on a chalk board, numb to the cultural reasons why these beliefs persist, and they can often be unconsciously cruel because of it. I don't attribute the beliefs of these folks as veritable hypotheses, but I understand why they are latched on to as truths. Life is piss poor and any meaning we can find in it-artificial or otherwise-to motivate us to get up every day and not crumble under the weight of its many challenges is understandable to me. Because of this I think people err when they regard certain believers as simpletons. They're just trying to figure out this crazy thing we call existence alongside us.
  • Posts: 4,498
    Thats a very fair point but, equally, it could be seen as patronsing to take the line of accepting belief and then talking behind their back rather than have grown up conversation face to face...or online.
    If life is so hard for some that they have to invent ghosts, then we need to look at the issues and try to improve things rather than shrug our shoulders. At a species level, it is hardly a compliment to mankind as a whole that we have to invent myths to survive. Other species just get on with it (I am sure there are some who beleive in animal ghosts?).
    We have to strive to deal with the reality of our lonely (at a universal level) existance.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,470
    patb wrote: »
    Thats a very fair point but, equally, it could be seen as patronsing to take the line of accepting belief and then talking behind their back rather than have grown up conversation face to face...or online.
    If life is so hard for some that they have to invent ghosts, then we need to look at the issues and try to improve things rather than shrug our shoulders. At a species level, it is hardly a compliment to mankind as a whole that we have to invent myths to survive. Other species just get on with it (I am sure there are some who beleive in animal ghosts?).
    We have to strive to deal with the reality of our lonely (at a universal level) existance.

    Debating is fine, but it's how we do it that can cause issue. Insults get tossed around, one calls another an idiot. It can seldom end well when debaters act in such a fashion.

    It's clear the world needs fixing, though we're better evolved than our ancestors in many educational and social respects, so we are growing, however slowly.

    As for differences across species, as humans we are both blessed and cursed with sentience and analytical thinking. We slip up and back ourselves into corners, but we're thinking things out. It's important always to question. The moment we think we're an expert on something or an issue or experience appears black and white to our eyes, we must readjust. Life is nothing if not a roller coaster of shifting perceptions, sparked by our own personal growth as humans, the new experiences we have and people we meet. I think we forget more and more each day that we're all part of the same ecosystem, trying our damnedest to make sense of this thing called life. But at least we're lost and questioning together, which is a helluva lot less frightening than any alternatives.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,498
    Can someone contact the ghost of Ian Fleming and find out if he wants DC to stay?
  • I don't believe in not believing in things. I also try Never to Say Never.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    patb wrote: »
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

    Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




    Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    patb wrote: »
    If you believe in ghosts, you have abandoned the basic principles of scientific method and respect for basic principles of physics. This is also confirmed by the final statement regarding "knowing for sure", nobody knows, thats because you are dead!, so you can speculate as much as you like, there an infinite number of theoretical things that could happen after you die. I perhaps could create some new ones? there is zero proper evidence of ghosts. But you have plumped for that one theory amongst the infinite theories and stated it as fact.

    Who knows for sure? You do.

    Sorry to blow your mind Pat but there is also zero evidence for how we came to be. How can we dismiss anything when on a universal level we know so little?
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Birdleson wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Can someone contact the ghost of Ian Fleming and find out if he wants DC to stay?

    I think it would be the same as with Connery. He'd denounce him as a brute, but do an about face when he saw the cash that the guy was bringing in.

    Fleming said he doesn't give two waggles of a dogs tale he's too busy picking up cloud women in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,498
    patb wrote: »
    If you believe in ghosts, you have abandoned the basic principles of scientific method and respect for basic principles of physics. This is also confirmed by the final statement regarding "knowing for sure", nobody knows, thats because you are dead!, so you can speculate as much as you like, there an infinite number of theoretical things that could happen after you die. I perhaps could create some new ones? there is zero proper evidence of ghosts. But you have plumped for that one theory amongst the infinite theories and stated it as fact.

    Who knows for sure? You do.

    Sorry to blow your mind Pat but there is also zero evidence for how we came to be. How can we dismiss anything when on a universal level we know so little?

    Yes, we have little idea of how the universe began but we are working on it. It's been mentioned before but using our ignorance in one field in an attempt to justify the existence of something else makes zero sense.

    "We dont know how the universe started, therefore , we need to be open minded regarding the claim that some pigs can fly."

    Thats clearly a bonkers statement. We have zero evidence for thinking that some pigs can fly and it goes against what we know re the laws of nature.

    Its exactly the same , tired thing re God. "We don't know how the universe started, therefore, it could be God".

    Is it possible ghosts exist? Yes, its possibe, together with the other infinite theories and propositions that cannot be disproved. (you do know I have in invisible, silent Dragon living in my garage and he moves into a new dimension when someone opens the door, he's there right now). You want to be open minded on that or have your already decided? Because you can't disprove my claim.

    But it's not my role to disprove ghosts. Just as I dont have to disprove fairies at the end of my garden, Nessy, UFO abductions etc etc just as you dont have to disprove the dragon in my garage.
  • Posts: 13,656
    patb wrote: »
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

    Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




    Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.

    Well that's a bummer since you had proof of the supernatural. 10 years and it is lost.

    The other thing is even if your claim was true (and I don't doubt your sincerity neither the one of other witnesses) we would still be perfectly justified disbelieving it due to very unreliable evidence.
  • Posts: 1,296
    patb wrote: »
    (you do know I have in invisible, silent Dragon living in my garage and he moves into a new dimension when someone opens the door, he's there right now).
    God-DAMN!! :-c
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger @!#¤%^§
    Posts: 43,614
    At first some of you closed-minded people annoyed me, but then I realized you are just a figment of my crazy imagination.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

    Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




    Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.

    Well that's a bummer since you had proof of the supernatural. 10 years and it is lost.

    Even bigger bummer you didn't go public as the bloke who proved ghosts exist as you could have made millions. Also rather careless you happened to misplace this earth shattering evidence.

    This thread really is staggering. Its not @Balje or @Mendes who are posting here but people like @Dragonpol and @SirHilary who normally able to hold coherent and nuanced™ debates.

    I thought rejection of reason only went on in the developing world and large swathes of America but no, it seems it's utterly rife around these parts too.

    It's rather depressing quite frankly.



  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,498
    The human brain is a weird thing. Even though most scientists are athiest, there are still many scientists who spend 5 days a week using reason, rationality, evidence etc to research their own arena and then, on Sunday morning, put on smart clothes and go to a special building to worship an invisible sky fairy.
    PS the dragon in my garage spoke to me ten years ago for the only time, and I recorded it but, unfortunately , I lost the tape.
  • Posts: 13,656
    Making millions and also completely revolutionizing science and human civilization as we know it. The man who can prove ghosts exist would be the next Galileo, Newton, Christopher Columbus, Pasteur, all rolled into one. Such discovery would improve our knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology, not to mention philosophy. Even if ghosts (if they existed) were not the souls of departed people, proving their existence would open a vast new unexplored territory of scientific discoveries. Believers say that rational people are too close minded about ghosts, while it is the contrary: if ghosts were proven to exist, the scientific world would be enthusiastic.

    I am not a scientist, I am a doctor in literature and while I did not specialize in supernatural fiction I do know a thing or two about it and I have a keen interest in ghost stories, whether it is supernatural fiction, legends or even claims of real hauntings. While the ghost is a fascinating concept, at the core of it there is the notion of wish fulfillment: its presence turns mundane (sometimes to the point of being oppressive) life into something exciting and mysterious.
  • Posts: 4,498
    There is some quality writing within this thread, thank you.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Writer @ http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 15,410
    patb wrote: »
    There is some quality writing within this thread, thank you.

    Well, it wasn't all a waste then.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger @!#¤%^§
    Posts: 43,614
    Here is your proof
    fb3abade144622b79be9c6a000c360db.jpg
  • DragonpolDragonpol Writer @ http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 15,410
    Case closed, surely?
Sign In or Register to comment.