Do you believe in ghosts?

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Far, far, far, far, far, far, far away.
    Posts: 42,598
    I don t believe in trolls.
  • @barryt007, thanks, I hadn't heard of that documentary. Probably won't seek it out on my own, but if I come across it on Netflix or something will definitely give it a watch.

    @Birdleson, laughing at the subliminal typo there—it really is some kind of horror though! It is good at least to know others cope with it too. When it first started happening to me, I was so ridiculously panicked. I had never heard of sleep paralysis or breathing obstruction before. It only happened about once a month (and maybe happens a little less frequently nowadays), but each time I went to sleep I was actually genuinely afraid I wouldn't survive to the morning.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Writer @ http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2016 Posts: 15,084
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Exhibit A

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


    That's compelling? I'm just seeing a guy in a cloak opening a door. Am I missing something there?

  • DragonpolDragonpol Writer @ http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 15,084
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


    That's compelling? I'm just seeing a guy in a cloak opening a door. Am I missing something there?

    It's said to be a ghost. It is CCTV footage too. It is a very haunted place with many sightings also.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


    That's compelling? I'm just seeing a guy in a cloak opening a door. Am I missing something there?

    It's said to be a ghost.

    Oh I didn't realise it was 'said to be a ghost'. I guess you've done me there with your proof.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It is CCTV footage too.

    Do CCTV cameras have a propensity for being better at filming ghosts than IMAX cameras?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It is a very haunted place with many sightings also.

    Does that constitute evidence?

    I'm sorry mate you're an intelligent bloke so I'm bemused as to why you would think the above clip is more likely to be a ghost than a mere hoax - made by Hampton Court to drum up interest in their Halloween night tours or some such?
  • DragonpolDragonpol Writer @ http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2016 Posts: 15,084
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


    That's compelling? I'm just seeing a guy in a cloak opening a door. Am I missing something there?

    It's said to be a ghost.

    Oh I didn't realise it was 'said to be a ghost'. I guess you've done me there with your proof.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It is CCTV footage too.

    Do CCTV cameras have a propensity for being better at filming ghosts than IMAX cameras?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It is a very haunted place with many sightings also.

    Does that constitute evidence?

    I'm sorry mate you're an intelligent bloke so I'm bemused as to why you would think the above clip is more likely to be a ghost than a mere hoax - made by Hampton Court to drum up interest in their Halloween night tours or some such?

    Yes, of course the old publicity tactic did cross my mind but I think that's one of the better pieces of CCTV to have emerged. Granted, they did have period costumes for historical reenactments in Hampton Court...

    Anyhow, I will be sharing some other footage I consider to be compelling in this thread very soon.
  • Posts: 19,339
    The one with the burning town hall and the little girl standing there who had died on the premises before is pretty compelling @Dragonpol but i think you are flogging a dead horse on here tbh...
  • Posts: 1,263
    I don't believe in ghosts. I can't see how any grown, sane person would say they do, and still expect to be taken seriously on other subjects

    However, like everyone I still get scared walking down hotel corridors at night, or empty buildings, etc.

    I've also had a few experiences with sleep paralysis. The first time was terrifying as I genuinely couldn't move despite trying like hell, the second and third time, I remembered what it was and it was kind of fun. Almost like lucid dreaming there was an awareness of what was happening

    Interestingly, I don't know whether I was actually dreaming I was awake once while sleep paralysed. I could hear the radio but when I eventually pulled myself out of it it wasn't on. Maybe I wasn't as 'awake' as I thought.

    Either way the human brain is a wonderful Th ing, capable of deceipt and able to be tricked so easily. Just look at the sun and then look away. The after image is still visible even though you know it's not there.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 19,339
    Matt007 wrote: »
    I don't believe in ghosts. I can't see how any grown, sane person would say they do, and still expect to be taken seriously on other subjects

    However, like everyone I still get scared walking down hotel corridors at night, or empty buildings, etc.

    I've also had a few experiences with sleep paralysis. The first time was terrifying as I genuinely couldn't move despite trying like hell, the second and third time, I remembered what it was and it was kind of fun. Almost like lucid dreaming there was an awareness of what was happening

    Interestingly, I don't know whether I was actually dreaming I was awake once while sleep paralysed. I could hear the radio but when I eventually pulled myself out of it it wasn't on. Maybe I wasn't as 'awake' as I thought.

    Either way the human brain is a wonderful Th ing, capable of deceipt and able to be tricked so easily. Just look at the sun and then look away. The after image is still visible even though you know it's not there.

    You SERIOUSLY got full sleep paralysis and mastered after 2 or 3 times ?...then you havent had sleep paralysis...

    And 'kind of fun' ? ....you have no idea what sleep paralysis is....i have had it for nearly 40 years and i have only mastered control over it ,and then not all the time,in the last 2 years....

  • edited October 2016 Posts: 1,263
    Relax dude it's not a competition

    Sleep paralysis as my understanding and experience was a follows. I woke up. Or rather my brain did. I tried to move but my body was completely paralysed. And it was very scary. I could hear things and was aware of where I was and there was a general sense of dread. Eventually after what felt like a huge physical effort I wrenched myself out of it and woke up.

    Since then I've probably had it happen maybe 5 times over 15 years. Each time I have recognised what's happening based on my first experience and managed to pull myself out of it. Although once or twice once I sensed my self waking up I've allowed my self to drift back into it to play a bit of a game with it.

    No demon on the chest etc

    I don't know if that counts but how else would I describe it? I've also only once managed to lucid dream. Ie realise I'm dreaming an manipulate the outcome.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,139
    I find that not eating cheese before bed helps greatly .
  • Mrcoggins wrote: »
    I find that not eating cheese before bed helps greatly .
    I do that sometimes just to have cool dreams! In college I used to keep a notepad by my bed so I could write that stuff down (I used to be into writing horror but it never really went beyond hobby)
    A martini right before bed with bleu cheese stuffed olives works great!


    3b4200546e66c8cc9f5818910a301eb1.png
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,139
    Cheers Master
  • Posts: 4,431
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


    That's compelling? I'm just seeing a guy in a cloak opening a door. Am I missing something there?

    OK, count me in. I asked for evidence and by the end of the day, we have it. Lets close the thread as our job is done.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 382
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    dont supose anyone had a camera on them? Interesting that with the rise of CCTV, smart phones etc, the number of photos of ghosts has not risen?

    Talking of CCTV footage in the modern age here's a pretty compelling one, the Hampton Court ghost from December 2003:


    That's compelling? I'm just seeing a guy in a cloak opening a door. Am I missing something there?

    It's said to be a ghost. It is CCTV footage too. It is a very haunted place with many sightings also.

    Anyone else reminded of Quarrel?

    'There's ghosts on Crab Key Cap'n. We've all seen em.

    Bond: Quarrel, how do you know it is a ghost and not a human?

    'Well..... I don't rightly know Sir. I guess all my friends says its ghosts and Dr No says it's ghosts, so's it must be ghosts. It fairly convinced me and my friends.

    Bond: Quarrel, do you not think Dr No might have his reasons for encouraging the locals to think that Crab Key is haunted?

    'That maybe Cap'n, but I still believe its a ghost on that Island. If you don't believe me you'll have to stay on that Island till you encounter it. Before that you got ain't no right coming here with your grown up logic, making fun of my beliefs.
  • Posts: 4,431
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2016 Posts: 20,250
    Spectres, apparitions, phantoms, ghosts. None of those things are real. My arguments are not based on my personal experiences and whether or not I have seen any myself, but on cold logic and scientific plausibility.

    Define "ghost". A supernatural leftover from a once living person? An elusive entity from another dimension? The "soul" but then without the skin, flesh and bones?

    There's no such thing as the soul, people, and if you insist that there is, fine, I'll concede that one could define the soul as the sum total of all the biochemical reactions occurring in our brain. In order to "feed" these reactions, provide them of reactants, one needs the bodily fluids to be pumped left and right, up and down. Thus, we need a beating heart. Once the heart has stopped beating, blood stops to flow, the chemical reactions of the living come to an end and the chemical reactions of the dead, i.e. decomposition of the corpse, ensue. The brain has suffered a fatal meltdown and is drained of all thoughts, sensations, desires, memories, ... It can no longer command the muscles or steer the body. It cannot walk again, open windows, rattle chains. In other words, it cannot do work because that, as dictated by the laws of thermodynamics, necessitates a free energy conversion which in the absence of a heart beat is impossible.

    "It's not because physicists haven't observed something that it doesn't exist!"
    Right. Look, enough with that. Half of the nonsensical alien conspiracy theories are based on such rubbish. True, we have observed billions of phenomena, deduced countless mathematical relationships, put those to good use in engineering and technological applications of all sorts, BUT, we may have overlooked that one ridiculously improbable event that thousands of Americans, lacking any proper scientific education, claim to have observed... Water pipes make ugly noises. Strange reflections in the mirror. TV's switching on and off by themselves. You're right. When THOSE things happen, you might as well brainlessly assume it's one of those not-quite-dead-dead-people horror films are made of. Because if you can choose between rationalising and not thinking, why choose the one that makes sense? It's preferable, after all, in the age of Trump, to simply follow the "majority" of people - i.e. those couple of crazies Dr. Phil entertains on sensation TV.

    Ghosts, you say? Newton believed in them... but he found no compelling evidence for them. He did, however, find compelling evidence for the attraction between masses. Guess which of both things ever actually amounted to anything substantial. I mean, I'm not seeing too many bridges being built on the assumption that old Mr Smithers from next door, who died last week, has come back to haunt us. The problem is not that people believe... the problem is that they want to believe. There appears to be an inherent desire in many to believe in that which defies common sense but to also deny the scientific fact of evolution or the big bang. Strange... how people choose to be trapped into childish make-belief because the least bit of cerebral effort frightens them.

    And so they consult fortune tellers... they spot UFOs... they drink "life elixirs"... and they live in a haunted house. Look, I love a creepy ghost flick as much as the next horror fan, but when the end titles roll, it's back to reality for me. And in this reality, folks, there are no ghosts, no resurrected men and women, no demons and spirits, ... There's only quantum physics, James Bond and Audrey Hepburn. And boy, do I wish her ghost could pay me a visit sometime.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,417
    Well, this thread got nasty fast, didn't it?

    In all these kinds of debates, with undertones of religion and faith in general thrown in, I find it important not to be too hard-edged when I dismiss the arguments of others, because I understand the temptation to believe.

    As humans it is a natural action and reaction to things like death to imagine a great meaning to our lives. We can't stand the thought that people just die, that humans who have been alive for decades upon decades one day just stop breathing and in the blink of an eye all their thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories and life experiences cease to exist and have as much importance or function as a smushed up bit of chewing gum flattened on the floor of a subway boarding platform.

    I think the massive belief and "faith" in the paranormal exists for the same reasons the belief in a "God" does. As stated previously, we as humans are almost subconsciously arrogant and need the security of belief that our lives can't just end and instead have actual purpose. There has to be a greater meaning for ourselves beyond being born, wasting our time with a hobby or job to make money, maybe falling in love, spawning offspring, retiring and dying, because that's all just too banal and ordinary. An "afterlife" then becomes a dreamscape from reality for these kinds of folks, a vision of a place where we can still exist along with all the people who've passed on before us in peace and harmony forevermore.

    This aspect, of our loved ones dying, is yet another thing that circulates the belief in the paranormal. The trauma and tragedy of thought that derives from realizing you will never see or speak to your loved ones and/or friends again after they die is too much to bear, just as it's too much to bear to realize how meaningless our existence on this earth really is, so we must create an artificial belief to hold on to that says there is indeed life after death, that our loved ones do live on as "spirits" after they die and that we can indeed meet them again in this "afterlife." Believing anything else would just be too hard to imagine; depressing and debilitating, even.

    I don't mean to be rude when I say all this, but I must admit that just entertaining the notion of a higher power or the paranormal makes me giggle, but not as much out of amusement as I wish it did. Listen, I get it. I don't agree with these sorts of beliefs, but I get why people have them. Some need to wake up every morning and tell themselves a "God" is looking out for them and that there is a greater importance to their lives beyond just surviving day to day. They want to think a special plan is in order for them, that their life is important and that a great journey has been mapped for them by this creator that will teach them all the lessons they desire or need to learn if only they pray and keep their faith true.

    I, on the other hand, have always placed my belief or "faith" in people. People I can feel and touch, and who I know are present with me. People who don't need believing in to exist or a measure of faith to materialize. I can't entertain the idea of a "God" or "ghosts" because it defies a logic I apply to everything that surrounds me, and as many here have said, we're about as far along proving the value of those beliefs as we are about uncovering Bigfoot. I simply can't give myself the luxury of believing that everything will go right if I only pray, or that a "God" has made it so we'll all be all right, because that then chains me to a cycle of belief where no practical sense is in place to hold on to, and I lose myself to fantasy. Shutting out the realities of life for a vision of an artificial post-life paradise is a blockade to the real struggles of humanity that we should be paying attention to, and that this belief can distract us from. Sure, a belief in a "God" can be a positive force for some, if unfounded, but it can also be a detriment to us as a collective species. You've got untold millions who live their lives in the name of a man, being, "thing" they have no connection with beyond what is spoken of in an ancient book, and these people then live their lives in the service of this being instead of living for themselves. People waste their entire lives never stepping outside this restrictive box of belief, denying themselves the true condition of being a human and being a fleeting life force who appreciates how precious the short time we have is, in exchange for what they think is a greater life after they die, which they are never assured exists, and only have faith and not fact invested in. In many ways, it is a blind waste of life.


    Forgive me, but I must forego these kinds of beliefs. People often claim atheists are people who believe in nothing and cherish nothing beyond themselves, and maybe even enjoy arguing their beliefs against Christian types, but I know of no atheists, myself included, who are this way or who like believing what we do. It is a terrible, terrible thing to see so plainly how little our everyday struggles as humans factor into the grand scheme of things, just as it's unthinkable to imagine we live and strive for things all our lives only to get nothing in return at the end but what we can manufacture for ourselves from the short time we have between birth and death. I don't enjoy being an atheist, it kills me inside, actually, and has been a source of great depression and darkness for me on many occasions, especially in recent years when I've lost so many loved ones I know I'll never meet again. It is, however, the only thing that makes any sense at all, and so, hate it as I do, I have no choice but to hold to it, as holding to anything else would be lying to my own face and creating artificial meaning for myself instead of working to materialize the real thing wherever I can find it.

    I said earlier that I hold my belief in people, and I think there is where the true pathway to meaning outside of ancient texts and prayer books exists. We take so much for granted each day, and often fail to truly realize how much we can all mean to ourselves just by being us. We, collectively a group of humans, are our own "Gods," you see, with our own source of iconography and meaning that is as special as anything we could artificially create in the image of a "creator." If we instead believed in ourselves more, and treated our own people, regular ordinary, everyday people as true sources of meaning, we'd have no need for the stories churches peddle to us in their search for financial gain, brainwashing and power.

    We as people can have all the meaning we view a "God" possessing. We look at world leaders, actors, musicians, political activists, presidents, athletes and scores of other people as "myths" or "characters" all their own, and attribute to them a specific set of culturally important functions. An actor can signify a sense of morality or toughness in the face of a danger with a role they play, just as a musician can connect us to the pure human meaning of a song's lyrics and its euphoric and near-orgasmic tune, just as an activists like Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Mandela can retain a legacy of fairness and love for your fellow man decades after their deaths. Humans can be dastardly, misguided and ruthless, but we can also house great meaning, true meanings sans any artificiality, greater than any we attribute to a "God," and when these special people die we can remember them and what they stood for as what they always were: tangible, living, real. It's why, whenever I'm making a big life decision I don't ask myself what "God" would want of me. I ask what my parents would desire, or my late grandmother, or my proudest friend. People of substance created without a reliance on belief or faith.

    This is a long, roundabout way of saying believe in yourself and those around you, and find your meaning there. We're alive for such a fleeting, blink-of-an-eye moment that wasting our breath pursuing things or ideas that are against our best interests have no time and place. We just have to be secure in the idea that the only meaning there is to life is what we can create together, with our family, our friends, and for some, our wives, husbands, sons and daughters. Meaning rooted in people, where it should always belong.
  • Posts: 6,432


    I don't discount energy signatures breaching the space time continuum. A apparition of something with a energy signature could be similar to a finger print, seeing a ghost could be a echo from the past.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,431
    Re the thread getting nasty, I dont see it that way. I do think that in the last 30-40 years, we have seen a cultural shift and now, non-beleivers in this stuff are far more willing to step up to the plate and debunk rather than roll their eyes and keep their thoughts to themselves. There is still a long way to go. Its remarkable, for example, that we have national newspapers that devote space to horoscopes.And I still get fed up when people ask for my "christian name". This stuff is insiduous and creeps into so many walks of life.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 20,250
    patb wrote: »
    Its remarkable, for exampple, that we have national newspapers that devote space to horoscopes.

    Exactly! You hit the nail on the head, @patb! Newspapers are supposed to be informative, objective, rational. Well, we know from all the sections devoted to celebrities and from all the political opinion stuff that they are anything but. However, their worst crime - and yes, it is a crime - is to print horoscopes, thereby giving the impression that horoscopes are "the real thing", that future and fortune telling is on the same intellectual level as discussing economics or technological innovations. They don't even add a disclaimer to point out the ridiculous nature of the thing and that it's solely meant to entertain certain readers. Technically, a newspaper that prints horoscopes without a clear reference towards its lack of validity, spreads lies and is potentially harmful in the sense that certain people may be motivated into making the wrong decisions based on such horoscopes.

    Even worse is the fact the people still read that crap, supposedly "just for fun". In truth though, when it says that today is not a good day to play the stock market, they might still be discouraged to actually do so, even if they admit that a horoscope is rubbish. It's the same thing with superstition in general. Many proudly proclaim that they aren't superstitious... and then they see a ladder and they walk past it instead of under it. I mean, you never know, right? And how about that poor black kitten that doesn't get selected from a nest of kittens for sale?

    Sadly, our intellect hasn't yet reached the point of vanquishing every desire to believe rather than to observe, hypothesise, conclude, test the conclusion, test it again, and then again, and so on, until a workable model or possibly even a theory can be formed, which must then be tested, tested again, and tested again, ... and so on, until the end of time. The latter is called science. The former is called stupidity.
  • Posts: 4,431
    "Newspapers are supposed to be informative, objective, rational."

    Find me one and I'll buy it...but never in a million years (I digress)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 20,250
    That's why I said, "they"re supposed to be". We both know they're not...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 I've missed you all.
    Posts: 28,417
    patb wrote: »
    Re the thread getting nasty, I dont see it that way. I do think that in the last 30-40 years, we have seen a cultural shift and now, non-beleivers in this stuff are far more willing to step up to the plate and debunk rather than roll their eyes and keep their thoughts to themselves. There is still a long way to go. Its remarkable, for example, that we have national newspapers that devote space to horoscopes.And I still get fed up when people ask for my "christian name". This stuff is insiduous and creeps into so many walks of life.

    Well yes, we're seeing a massive rise in non-believers, especially in the number of those without any religious belief, and people speaking out against the non-sensical, which is fantastic. It's crazy to think that just five hundred years ago people were still being exiled or sentenced to death for challenging the might of the church.

    But again, belief in this stuff is all representative of the need humans have to think there's a plan set for them, that they're being guided, that they're special, and that life in general is more than meets the eye. They don't like it when they're told none of those things are true, naturally.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,431
    Another Carl Sagan story - he was leaving his room in a Manhatten Hotel to speak at a conference on science versus superstition. He got into the lift to go down to reception and noticed that there was no button for the 13th floor. On enquiring, it turns out that many NY hotels dont have a "13th floor" as they are unpopular. The fact that there obviously was a 13th floor but it was just called the 14th floor did not seem to worry people. Just pure childishness..its everywhere. Sometimes I think the planet is one big creche
  • Posts: 19,339
    The airline I work for doesn't have a row 13 either...most airlines don't.
    Mind you,13 is my favourite number.
  • edited October 2016 Posts: 4,431
    wow, I did not know that, how depressing..although lots of legroom in row 14 I imagine?
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,571
    patb wrote: »
    Another Carl Sagan story - he was leaving his room in a Manhatten Hotel to speak at a conference on science versus superstition. He got into the lift to go down to reception and noticed that there was no button for the 13th floor. On enquiring, it turns out that many NY hotels dont have a "13th floor" as they are unpopular. The fact that there obviously was a 13th floor but it was just called the 14th floor did not seem to worry people. Just pure childishness..its everywhere. Sometimes I think the planet is one big creche
    Triskaidekaphobia - fear of the number 13.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Far, far, far, far, far, far, far away.
    Posts: 42,598
    There is a lot of narrowmindedness at display here. Seeing how you lump every goddamn thing you have no experience with or see as crazy together, reminds me of blind people who just won t believe such a thing as vision exists. After all, where s the proof?
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