Dr. No versus the field: Skyfall

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  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: AVTAK
    Main Villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: AVTAK
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: AVTAK
    Action: AVTAK (Is there any memorable action scene in DN?)
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: AVTAK
    Benign Bizarre: AVTAK
    Suspense: AVTAK (For Zorin and Mayday alone)
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: AVTAK (I take AVTAK's French castle scenes over DN's dinner scene)
    Bond Performance: DN

    AVTAK 12 : DN 5
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    I guess people will usually just vote on how much they overall like the film without going much into the details. For me it is hard to understand why people rate the action in DN (which hardly exists) higher than that in AVTAK. The score is another example. How can anyone honestly say that DN has a better score than AVTAK?
  • Posts: 19,339
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: AVTAK
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: AVTAK
    Dialogue: AVTAK
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: AVTAK
    Suspense: AVTAK
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN 7
    AVTAK 9


    Not that much of a shock,i do like AVTAK,it is more re-watchable and entertaining.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited March 2018 Posts: 6,758
    GBF wrote: »
    I guess people will usually just vote on how much they overall like the film without going much into the details. For me it is hard to understand why people rate the action in DN (which hardly exists) higher than that in AVTAK. The score is another example. How can anyone honestly say that DN has a better score than AVTAK?

    I’ll give you the score, but the action goes to DN because AVTAK has such an obvious use of stuntmen and it actually isn’t trying the hide that.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 754
    Title Track:DN
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: DN
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: DN
    Settings: DN
    Action: DN
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    Dr 17- AVTK -0

    I love AVTAK title track, but not over the Bond theme. And while Barry is the master, the music from Dr No I find more evocative of Jamaica and love that too. Action is both good and too cartoony in AVTAK so I couldn’t give it there either. I was never a fan of Grace Jones so no, plus their sex scene gives the creeps. I tried though, I did.

  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    Title Track: AVTAK (Favourite!!!)
    Title Credits: AVTAK
    Main Villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: AVTAK
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: AVTAK
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: AVTAK
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: AVTAK
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: AVTAK
    Glamour: AVTAK
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN 5
    AVTAK 12


  • Posts: 462
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: AVTAK
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 12
    AVTAK - 5
  • Posts: 4,023
    DoctorNo wrote: »

    I love AVTAK title track, but not over the Bond theme. And while Barry is the master, the music from Dr No I find more evocative of Jamaica and love that too. Action is both good and too cartoony in AVTAK so I couldn’t give it there either. I was never a fan of Grace Jones so no, plus their sex scene gives the creeps. I tried though, I did.

    Except it isn't the Bond Theme, but that badly edited medley.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited March 2018 Posts: 2,721
    Title Track: AVTAK (this is a trailblazing effort from Duran Duran and the opening bars gets the blood pumping.)

    Title Credits: DN (AVTAK is in the middle of Binder's fallow period)

    Main Villain: AVTAK (very close. Zorin is a memorable, cold and menacing villain. DN would win this in iconic terms, but in plot terms and screen time Zorin triumphs. Walken is having a blast and he doesn't have a weak scene.)

    Main Bond Girl: DN (Honey is iconic. Stacey Sutton is forgettable - when she's not annoying.)

    Henchman: AVTAK (Grace Jones is a top shelf Bond heavy)

    Overall Plot: DN (After the Paris opening AVTAK's plot drags for large chunks of the film. Even though the ending picks things up a bit.)

    Dialogue: DN (For Doctor No and Bond's dialogue alone. AVTAK has some comedy clangers.)

    Score: AVTAK (Wonderful. One of my favourite Bond soundtracks - Snow Job, Stacey meets Bond and Golden Gate Fight are amazing series highlights.)

    Settings: AVTAK (Jamaica in DN is so magical and sets up Bond exoticism so well. It's an eternal favourite. But I'm giving this to AVTAK because it uses the Eiffel Tower so well and a good race beside and on top of the Seine. But the kicker is I truly love San Francisco as a cinematic city - and as a place to visit!)

    Action: AVTAK (the PTS action is good, the Paris car chase and final act has some good action sequences.)

    Humour: DN (AVTAK's humour is pretty ordinary. DN has the deadpan and dark humour down pat)

    Cinematography: DN (love the way Jamaica is captured.)

    Benign Bizarre: AVTAK (close but butterfly death, steroid babies, carwash deaths, Grace Jones)

    Suspense: DN (AVTAK has some good individual suspense scenes mainly the Paris chase and the finale but it has large chunks that pall.)

    Minor Characters: DN (I like Macnee and Fullerton but I prefer Quarrel and Felix Leiter)

    Glamour: DN (62' Bond glamour beats '85 bond glamour)

    Bond Performance: DN (Connery at his finest beats Moore at his oldest)

    DN - 10
    AVTAK - 7


    DN is easily top ten Bond for me so these categories flatter AVTAK which is hovering in the bottom third of Bond films for me. But it has some excellent elements when split up like this. The locations, the villains, title song and it has one of my favourite soundtracks ever.
  • It was a close round of battle, but after the votes were all counted, the score was 199-187-5 for Dr. No. The original Bond also held on to win the total games 13-10 against Sir Rog's penultimate adventure. Now DN moves on to face the end of an era in A View To A Kill. I'll put down my score first, following tradition...

    Title Track: AVTAK (DANCE! INTO THE FIRE! I just can't deny it.)
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN (Christopher Walken is great, but he just can't hold up to the quiet menace of Dr. Julius No.)
    Main Bond Girl: DN (JAAAAAAAAAAAAMES)
    Henchman: AVTAK (Counting May Day as henchwoman, if she goes under minor characters it probably pushes AVTAK over the edge)
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: DN
    Settings: DN (A Bond set in Silicon Valley is an interesting idea, but AVTAK doesn't do much with it.)
    Action: AVTAK (The mine massacre gets it over the line, somehow.)
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN (But it's closer than you'd think.)
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    14-3 for DN!

    A well-expected blowout, but AVTAK still gets its hits in. Well, that's enough from me. How will your scores look?

    I'm really confused by something here. How does the DN score beat the AVTAK score?? The weakest Barry (or non-Barry, for that matter) score should easily beat Norman's non-score. AVTAK is an exceptional Barry score! Between this and TLD Barry really went out on a high note!

    Oh!

    I meant to pick AVTAK. I knew something was off about my score. Amending now, thank you very much.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,332
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: AVTAK
    Main Villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: AVTAK
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: AVTAK
    Suspense: AVTAK
    Minor Characters: AVTAK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    10-7 AVTAK
  • Posts: 4,023
    Birdleson wrote: »
    vzok wrote: »
    DoctorNo wrote: »

    I love AVTAK title track, but not over the Bond theme. And while Barry is the master, the music from Dr No I find more evocative of Jamaica and love that too. Action is both good and too cartoony in AVTAK so I couldn’t give it there either. I was never a fan of Grace Jones so no, plus their sex scene gives the creeps. I tried though, I did.

    Except it isn't the Bond Theme, but that badly edited medley.

    Which includes the Bond theme.

    But not just the Bond Theme. If it was just the Bond Theme as recorded it’d be perfect. But the other Two sections don’t link well with it and it is really poorly edited together.
  • Posts: 4,023
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: AVTAK
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: AVTAK
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: AVTAK
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN 9
    AVTAK 8
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Title Track: AVTAK - Bona fide classic.

    Title Credits: AVTAK - Like the luminous colours.

    Main Villain: AVTAK - So tight as Wiseman is fabulous but Walken shades it thanks to more screentime.

    Main Bond Girl: DN - Honey not my favourite but she's iconic and more importantly keeps her trap shut instead of screeching all the time.

    Henchman: AVTAK - Grace is pretty iconic even if we are denied a final showdown with her and Bond.

    Overall Plot: DN - DN nice and simple detective story that must have been fabulously thrilling at the time of the Cuban missile crisis. AVTAK is just a retread of GF with story threads (the microchip, the horse drugging) that don't really go anywhere.

    Dialogue: AVTAK - Love the stuff with Rog and Macnee and also Rog and Walken's sparring.

    Score: AVTAK - Two words for those suggesting DN has a better score: 'He's Dangerous'. Probably only the Bond theme and OHMSS main theme are better.

    Settings: DN - DN gives a great sense of being in Jamaica whereas AVTAK operates like a Japanese tour group whisking you from tourist site to tourist site with just enough time to take a few pics and buy a miniature Eiffel Tower or Golden Gate Bridge.

    Action: AVTAK - The PTS very underrated due to a terrible musical decision, the taxi chase is very inventive by Julienne (despite the poor stunt doubling) and the finale on the bridge is pretty good.

    Humour: DN - Some subtle one liners that hit the mark beautifully far better than the sub JW schtick of the police captain.

    Cinematography: DN - Looks fabulous on bluray whilst AVTAK looks like a TV travel show.

    Benign Bizarre: DN - The metal hands, the tarantula room, cigarette cyanide all add up to a rather creepy film at times.

    Suspense: AVTAK - Despite us knowing that Bond will save the day the countdown does get pretty tense.

    Minor Characters: DN - Quarrel, Leiter, Pussfeller, Miss Taro comfortably beat the bland Chuck Lee, Scarpine, Mortner and the hammy Abuergine.

    Glamour: DN - Thr casino scene alone beats anything in AVTAK, notably Rog driving a crappy hire car along the freeway listening to the local radio.

    Bond Performance: DN - Unsurpassble.

    9 DN
    8 AVTAK

    Worryingly close. I guess AVTAK must be just less than the sum of its parts as I would say they are miles apart.

  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 776
    Title Track: DN
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: DN
    Settings: DN
    Action: DN
    Humour: AVTAK
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN 15
    AVTAK 2

    DN is one of my top five favorites, AVTAK is one of the worst for me.
  • Posts: 832
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN: 13
    AVTAK: 4
  • Posts: 642
    Title Track: AVTAK - no surprise here

    Title Credits: AVTAK - DN is a bit too simple (though I do like the dots) so I prefer the very 80s colorful style with the day-glo effects

    Main Villain: AVTAK - Zorin is hands down the greatest Bond villain and one of my all-time favorite movie villains ever, just behind Alan Rickman's Hans Gruber and maybe John Malkovich's Mitch Leary

    Main Bond Girl: DN - no surprise here (Jaaaaames, Jaaaames....)

    Henchman: AVTAK - May Day is as freaky a creation as they come, and the film is all the better for it; I think she compliments the psychotic Zorin extremely well - they're the most bizarre villainous duo in the series!

    Overall Plot: AVTAK - I dig the whole feel of the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 but "rocket toppling" and the radioactive water (?) that Dr. No is playing around with just doesn't thrill me as much as Zorin's plan of flooding Silicon Valley and cornering the microchip market

    Dialogue: AVTAK - this is close but whenever you have Sir Roger delivering dialogue it's always a gem!

    Score: AVTAK - no surprise here (Barry dances into the fire!!)

    Settings: DN - love the Jamaican locale!

    Action: AVTAK - no surprise here

    Humour: AVTAK - ignoring the lame inclusion of those keystone cops, Roger's films always have great humor, here especially between 007 and Tibbett!

    Cinematography: DN - great 60s cinematography by Ted Moore and I love how he captures the tropical beauty of Jamaica and the dangers of espionage

    Benign Bizarre: DN - tarantulas, dragons on wheels, metal hands, 3 blind mice, sisters Rose and Lily

    Suspense: DN - I want to call this a tie because I find the Golden Gate finale very suspenseful but I think DN has more moments of suspense evenly spread out; AVTAK focuses more on action whereas DN more on suspense; in some places in DN the suspense is so thick you could cut it with a knife - great suspense atmosphere, like in a Hitchcock film

    Minor Characters: AVTAK - for Tibbett alone!

    Glamour: DN - there's certainly plenty of glamour at the Chateau de Chantilly in France, but on the whole AVTAK isn't one of the more glamorous Bond films

    Bond Performance: DN - no surprise here (though Sir Rog never gave a bad Bond performance, just his age was really showing here)

    AVTAK: 10
    DN: 7

    For the record, when I started watching the Bond films back in the summer of 2001 I started at the beginning with DN (on VHS of course) so I have a special affinity for the film. I was pretty much hooked right from the beginning after just seeing DN. What followed (GF, YOLT) only made me a more die-hard fan! AVTAK is actually a film that I've liked less and less with each rewatch. It really bogs down in San Fran with those keystone cops and that corny firetruck chase. There's nothing worse than a boring action scene and that's exactly what that is. I get more enjoyment out of people talking in the film than I do out of that "exciting" action scene. But Walken and Jones still totally make the film for me, along with Barry's score and that Golden Gate finale!
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,417
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: DN
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN: 14
    AVTAK: 3

    Good God. I didn't expect DN to dish out the hurt this much. Still, DN is a classic.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 23,102
    Title Track: AVTAK
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: DN
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: DN
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN: 15
    AVTAK: 2
  • Any final entries before we take the leap into the Dalton years?
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    Time to move on to TLD it seems.
  • DoctorNoDoctorNo USA-Maryland
    Posts: 754
    Yeah I’m anxious for TLD
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited March 2018 Posts: 2,252
    Title Track: DN (Bond theme. AVTAK isn't bad, but I'm not as big of a fan as most)
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: AVTAK (Zorin has more to do)
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK (As per villain. Dent's scenes are excellent)
    Overall Plot: AVTAK
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN: 12
    AVTAK: 5
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    @Soundofthesinners Shall we move on?
  • Posts: 832
    ^
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 1,469
    Title Track: AVTAK. That song is one of my favorite Bond themes.
    Title Credits: AVTAK. Contemporary, smoother, more stylish.
    Main Villain: DN. His power, the control he has over subordinates, otherworldliness, creepiness.
    Main Bond Girl: DN. 'Nuff said.
    Henchman: DN. This was tough. May Day makes a strong presence...in more ways than one. And I find her a hot black woman. But DN's hench men and women are very colorful characters, sometimes subtle, but still lethal--more Flemingesque in my view. Also interesting to me regarding this matchup: Grace Jones was born in Jamaica.
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: DN. More memorable for me...I immediately think of the "spider theme"...and there are others.
    Settings: DN. Without a doubt. And even though I love my country to bits (the U.S.), I firmly believe America is a dull place for Bond to be--he deserves more exotic or more rugged settings. Still, I love Paris.
    Action: AVTAK
    Humor: AVTAK
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN - 13
    AVTAK - 4
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2018 Posts: 5,921
    peter wrote: »
    Title Track: TMWTGG (sue me-- I love the grande with cheese of this song)
    Title Credits: TMWTGG
    Main Villain: Tie (Lee was terrific)
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: TMWGG
    Overall Plot: Tie
    Dialogue: Tie
    Score: TMWTGG
    Settings: TMWTGG
    Action: TMWTGG
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: TMWTGG
    Suspense: Tie
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    What the hell?? I do like DN far more as a film, but upon breaking things up a little, I have far more respect for TMWTGG than I had originally believed possible (although I realize I have been warming to it for the first time in my life).

    DN: 6
    TMWTGG: 7
    Tie: 4

    I actually have gone though my choices three times now... Very shocked with this result. I apologize to any and all whom I've offended, lol...!

    It would indeed be a turn of events if TMWTGG got a critical re-appraisal a la OHMSS. Doubtful, but who knows?

    Title Track: DN (c'mon, it's the Bond theme!)
    Title Credits: DN ('60s beats '80s)
    Main Villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: DN
    Action: AVTAK (the PTS indeed is underrated--Glen knew how to edit an action scene)
    Humour: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    Benign Bizarre: DN
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: AVTAK (Sir Godfrey)
    Glamour: DN
    Bond Performance: DN

    DN: 12
    AVTAK: 5
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    echo wrote: »
    It would indeed be a turn of events if TMWTGG got a critical re-appraisal a la OHMSS. Doubtful, but who knows?
    It would indeed. On the same day England win the World Cup, Putin wins the Nobel peace prize and the hapless Tories cut us a good Brexit deal.
  • Posts: 4,023
    I wouldn’t be surprised at Putin’s win.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    Negligence is what ultimately ruined the "Name that Quote" and "__ elimination" games. Don't make that same mistake, @Soundofthesinners .
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