No Time To Die: Why It Should Not Have Been Made (The Way It Was)

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  • Dwayne wrote: »
    "Get out of the Sour Milk Sea...You don't belong there..."

    A nice reference there @BeatlesSansEarmuffs. George H. would be proud. ^:)^

    Thanks for recognizing the reference, @Dwayne. Those of you who may have been wondering, "What the heck is that about?" are encouraged to check my posting in the "Is NTTD Divisive?" thread from earlier today -- where I've placed a link to the song referenced. Written & Produced by George Harrison, released on Apple Records and featuring 3 of the Fab 4 as the backing band for a fellow named Jackie Lomax -- with additional input by Eric Clapton and Nicky Hopkins. It's one of the best songs you've probably never heard and a good reason for you to say "Thanks" today!
  • Murdock wrote: »
    NTTD is bad for many reasons. Bond's death happens to be one of them.

    Most of the characters make pretty poor choices to justify the crappy plot of the movie.

    M is the true villain of this movie and he's a pretty huge hypocrite. After the big stink he made about Nine Eyes, he goes out of his way to outdo Denbigh and commission Heracles. Why the hell is the head of MI6 even allowed to be able to create this? Mallory should be rotting in prison after this movie.

    Bond is pretty stupid for falling for an obvious bait and switch in the beginning. He's seemingly known Madeline for a while now and like nothing thinks she betrayed him over some coincidences. Bond would really be inclined to believe some villain that Madeline is evil because he said so? Bond should be smarter than that.

    Bond and Madeline's chemistry is just as flat and just as non existent as it was in Spectre. I never once bought that these two ever had feelings for one another. Bringing Madeline back was a big mistake given Spectre is now 6 years old.

    Safin was a lame villain. Nothing about him was intimidating or creepy. It takes more than a cottage cheese face and crappy old man voice to be a remotely good villain. Not sure why he even bothered to go on this crusade considering the author of all his pain was dead at this point. I guess he was mad he didn't do in Mr. White himself.

    Mathilde seemed rather pointless. Well that's not true, her involvement artificially raised the stakes rather unconvincingly. The fact Safin just lets her wander off after biting him was random and deflated the tension, not that there was any.

    Felix's death made me mad the most. He gets blown off for two movies then comes back for a glorified cameo only to be killed off. Way to kill off another legacy character.

    Bond's death was pathetic. The missiles that killed him looked more like he was being hit with roman candles. I guess it's fitting he'd go out with a whimper.

    But in the end, I'm glad this miserable era is finally over. Though I don't have any hopes for future Bond films going forward. They will probably be just as bad as this one. The Bond I knew and loved died long ago.

    Go ahead, call me a hater. Call me entitled. I couldn't care less about what anyone thinks of me for daring to be critical about this movie or saying something bad about the great beast can do no wrong Daniel Craig. If you liked this movie, fine. Enjoy it for all eternity. I hated it and I'm going to vent about it for as long as I have the negative feelings for this movie in my system. I know there's the classic Bond films and I don't need to be reminded of them. I know exactly where to find them. But going forward, I don't see the franchise recovering from this in my eyes. It bottomed out hard. The burning fire I once had in me as a Bond fan has been extinguished by this movie.

    Totally agree with your points Bond is really stupid to fall for a bait in the pre title sequence. Conner or Roger's Bond wouldn't act like that.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 1,955
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    “Classic” purely comes down to individual taste tbh.

    I think we define the word classic differently. By classic, I mean cultural impact, critical acclaim, influence. How it affects the landscape overall. Not just one person's opinion.

    Perhaps that’s how you define the word, what’s classic to one person isn’t to another. There are plenty of films that didn’t have any of that at the time of their release, but are still regarded as Classics. If going by your definitions, the Dalton films are classics because how the positive reactions from critics and the hardcore fanbase at the time of their releases, and have in some way, paved the way for Craig’s run, so that accounts for Acclaim and Influence. The Brosnan era was the 2nd Big Cultural Phenomenon that happened within the franchise, as each film after Goldeneye kept making more money at the box office, and they had a huge impact at that time, introducing an entire new generation to Bond, so that accounts for Pop Cultural Impact. You’re welcome to disagree, but I’m just stating why I don’t think Craig’s era has been the only era in about 40 years to deliver “Classics.” Again this isn’t meant to take anything away from Craig, but to downplay the success and impacts of some of the other actors and their films just doesn’t ring true with me.

    Someone made a good point on here about what makes a ‘classic.’ Do you expect to eventually see this film on Turner Classic Movies? I believe that’s a good gage. I think @007ClassicBondFan makes a great rubric for a classic in his first paragraph above.

    That’s a great way of looking at it! Especially seeing as how TCM did marathon a vast majority of the Bond films from Dr. No to TWINE as part of the 100th anniversary of United Artists celebration they were having.
    I mean, it's right in his name!

    I’m somewhat an authority on “Classics” ;)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    As a side-note, it annoys me there are no Bond films in the Criterion Collection... I know there were one or two on laserdisc, and a friend of mine explained why MGM (or whoever, don't really understand the business of it all) don't feel the need to distribute the films that way, but it would be awesome.

    The only "C" I have is the original Godzilla, absolutely packed with features.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,655
    We're still good. Even if you DO like MR & it's not too high on my list.
    Huh? Dude, MR was last on my list until NTTD came out. It has since got pushed up one.... ;)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,316
    Not that anyone asked but Moonraker is number 2 on my list. :D
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2021 Posts: 17,655
    Murdock wrote: »
    Not that anyone asked but Moonraker is number 2 on my list. :D

    I know & I respect that you liked the sci-fi fun in the mix with the serious spy stuff. John Barry's MAGNIFICENT score helped a lot no doubt. I actually need to see this one again. Gotta order the blu-ray....
    Also, last on my list is the one I never intend to watch again. NTTD took that place....
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,316
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Not that anyone asked but Moonraker is number 2 on my list. :D

    I know & I respect that you liked the sci-fi fun in the mix with the serious spy stuff. John Barry's MAGNIFICENT score helped a lot no doubt. I actually need to see this one again. Gotta order the blu-ray....
    Also, last on my list is the one I never intend to watch again. NTTD took that place....

    It isn't so much the sci fi stuff as to why I enjoy Moonraker, though I certainly do enjoy it. I just find it to be a fun, adventurous romp. I didn't like it all that much as a kid, but the older I get the more enjoyable it is. It climbed my ranks higher than any other Bond movie. It's fun and it's not ashamed of it. It might be over the top but it's a lot better than it's reputation perceives it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,655
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Not that anyone asked but Moonraker is number 2 on my list. :D

    I know & I respect that you liked the sci-fi fun in the mix with the serious spy stuff. John Barry's MAGNIFICENT score helped a lot no doubt. I actually need to see this one again. Gotta order the blu-ray....
    Also, last on my list is the one I never intend to watch again. NTTD took that place....

    It isn't so much the sci fi stuff as to why I enjoy Moonraker, though I certainly do enjoy it. I just find it to be a fun, adventurous romp. I didn't like it all that much as a kid, but the older I get the more enjoyable it is. It climbed my ranks higher than any other Bond movie. It's fun and it's not ashamed of it. It might be over the top but it's a lot better than it's reputation perceives it.

    Having fun is key. In any series. !
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,316
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Not that anyone asked but Moonraker is number 2 on my list. :D

    I know & I respect that you liked the sci-fi fun in the mix with the serious spy stuff. John Barry's MAGNIFICENT score helped a lot no doubt. I actually need to see this one again. Gotta order the blu-ray....
    Also, last on my list is the one I never intend to watch again. NTTD took that place....

    It isn't so much the sci fi stuff as to why I enjoy Moonraker, though I certainly do enjoy it. I just find it to be a fun, adventurous romp. I didn't like it all that much as a kid, but the older I get the more enjoyable it is. It climbed my ranks higher than any other Bond movie. It's fun and it's not ashamed of it. It might be over the top but it's a lot better than it's reputation perceives it.

    Having fun is key. In any series. !

    Amen.
  • Posts: 1,876
    Dwayne wrote: »

    For what its' worth I spoke to a fellow Bond fan earlier this week since he finally got a chance to see NTTD. He hated it - and Bond's death was the sole reason why. "They killed the franchise !!!!", he complained. Then I asked him what he thought of the film prior to the ending, he told me: ".....I actually enjoyed it.

    As for my thoughts, IF Daniel was going to come back for a fifth film, I don't see how you bring "his" character full circle, other than by the way EON/DC decided on. Ride off into the sunset with the Bond Girl on his arms? It's been done.

    Maybe, I reconsider after I buy the DVD and have a chance to watch NTTD several times, but for now I think of the whole Craig era as a self-contained series.
    Strong points here. I've seen a lot of complaints about the feeling not being the same, even a few arguing there are no Q gadgets (there actually were). Would a cheap quip and a clinch with the leading lady really make it a more satisfying experience at the end? That was what made Spectre's ending so unsatisfying because it felt disingenuous for the Craig era, especially for what was supposed to be a finale to his era. A downer ending sure didn't hurt OHMSS.
    Someone made a good point on here about what makes a ‘classic.’ Do you expect to eventually see this film on Turner Classic Movies? I believe that’s a good gage. I think @007ClassicBondFan makes a great rubric for a classic in his first paragraph above.

    While it plays plenty of prestige flicks, TCM also plays a lot of less-than classics. I love the Man from UNCLE movies from TV episodes they occasionally show, but I'd hardly count those as classics in the, forgive me, classic sense. But as you said, the definition can vary.
    Thanks for recognizing the reference, @Dwayne. Those of you who may have been wondering, "What the heck is that about?" are encouraged to check my posting in the "Is NTTD Divisive?" thread from earlier today -- where I've placed a link to the song referenced. Written & Produced by George Harrison, released on Apple Records and featuring 3 of the Fab 4 as the backing band for a fellow named Jackie Lomax -- with additional input by Eric Clapton and Nicky Hopkins. It's one of the best songs you've probably never heard and a good reason for you to say "Thanks" today!

    I never thought I'd see a Sour Milk Sea reference outside of a Beatles forum. I discovered the song when my newspaper office had a promo CD of songs from the Apple label and it was on there along with songs from Mary Hopkin and Billy Preston. I knew Harrison wrote it but not the others involved in it. That's impressive.
  • Posts: 526
    Not trying to derail the thread, but we have all discussed and pondered the question: What makes a classic film? Here are some random points of reference that I’ve dug up. Feel free to agree or disagree, I’d like to have a definitive rubric myself.
    {starting here} By definition, a classic film is one that is 25 years old or older and has made an impact on culture and cinematic zeitgeist. Plus there's that little thing about being timeless.

    Classic films are films that are "of lasting worth or timeless quality." They are well-made with great acting, music, and dialogue. Their attention to historical details, costuming, and scenery are well thought out and done right.



  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I am very glad we have NTTD. This is not news to my friend, @chrisisall.
    I would be disappointed if the ending for Craig's Bond was Spectre. So I was enthralled throughout, and just plain relieved that YES, they did give us this movie, done this way. Naturally, it follows that I feel they definitely SHOULD have made NTTD and I am glad they did. It gives us a noble and heroic ending for this unique James Bond. I feel it is the most appropriate ending and was done so very well, by all.

    However, if you cannot accept it then look at it this way: Daniel Craig is the only Bond to give you TWO endings to his Bond. Just keep Spectre as your ending and you are all set. He actually gave fans two. If you cannot accept the ending of NTTD, then don't watch it just have Spectre for your own finish to that Bond. You can do that. Don't count NTTD, keep your world in the arena you need it to be in.

  • chrisisall wrote: »
    We're still good. Even if you DO like MR & it's not too high on my list.
    Huh? Dude, MR was last on my list until NTTD came out. It has since got pushed up one.... ;)

    Speaking metaphorically. I'm sure there's something you like that I don't, and vice-versa -- and that's okay. QoS? TMWTGG? DAF? None of them "should not have been made." Some of them just should have been made better.
  • BennyBenny keeping tabs on youAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,723
    I am very glad we have NTTD. This is not news to my friend, @chrisisall.
    I would be disappointed if the ending for Craig's Bond was Spectre. So I was enthralled throughout, and just plain relieved that YES, they did give us this movie, done this way. Naturally, it follows that I feel they definitely SHOULD have made NTTD and I am glad they did. It gives us a noble and heroic ending for this unique James Bond. I feel it is the most appropriate ending and was done so very well, by all.

    However, if you cannot accept it then look at it this way: Daniel Craig is the only Bond to give you TWO endings to his Bond. Just keep Spectre as your ending and you are all set. He actually gave fans two. If you cannot accept the ending of NTTD, then don't watch it just have Spectre for your own finish to that Bond. You can do that. Don't count NTTD, keep your world in the arena you need it to be in.

    And we have a winner!
    @4EverBonded I love it, for those of us who like NTTD, and for those who don't. Everyone's a winner.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,857
    If you cannot accept the ending of NTTD, then don't watch it just have Spectre for your own finish to that Bond. You can do that. Don't count NTTD, keep your world in the arena you need it to be in.
    I do that with the Bourne films - the Bourne Identity is the only one I acknowledge. In my world, Bourne and Marie are happily running a scooter and surf shop on Mykonos to this day!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    I am very glad we have NTTD. This is not news to my friend, @chrisisall.
    I would be disappointed if the ending for Craig's Bond was Spectre. So I was enthralled throughout, and just plain relieved that YES, they did give us this movie, done this way. Naturally, it follows that I feel they definitely SHOULD have made NTTD and I am glad they did. It gives us a noble and heroic ending for this unique James Bond. I feel it is the most appropriate ending and was done so very well, by all.

    However, if you cannot accept it then look at it this way: Daniel Craig is the only Bond to give you TWO endings to his Bond. Just keep Spectre as your ending and you are all set. He actually gave fans two. If you cannot accept the ending of NTTD, then don't watch it just have Spectre for your own finish to that Bond. You can do that. Don't count NTTD, keep your world in the arena you need it to be in.

    I might even say he's given us three, if SP and NTTD aren't your cup of behave-tea.

    Skyfall's ending could serve as your own personal ending, to tee up the next Bond actor and his films.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 12,828
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Craig and EON knew they were sparking controversy for its own sake. They saw the reaction to the (awful) SW sequels, hell Craig even cameo'd in one of them. They knew they were essentially making the Bond version of The Last Jedi, where the hero is a broken-down wreck and gets bumped off for an annoying female replacement. They knew it'd piss off fans and they did it anyway.

    On the money there mate, that’s exactly why they did it. I work at EON and I was in a meeting where MGW suggested a traditional Bond gets the girl ending, for the fans. Unfortunately, Daniel Craig himself suddenly burst in ranting about how he didn’t want Star Wars to outwoke them, and demanding they change the script. Barbara, of course, just sat back and let him take control, because what Craig wants, Craig gets, and she really hates the fans. The ending happening to be a fitting conclusion the ongoing themes and character arcs of the era was pure coincidence, and don’t listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Feminazi Craig just wanted to copy Star Wars.

    Personally though, I’m pretty happy about that. I’m black and it’s nice to see our evil plan coming to fruition. We’re all in on it. The women, the blacks, the gays. And of course, the modern world has gone so mental and woke that nobody will dare stand up to our cultural genocide. There’ll be no more boring straight white men left on screen by the time we’re done B-)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 7,954
    @thelivingroyale ... THIS is the post of the decade, lol! Well done.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    A well deserved roast.

    roast-supa-hot-fire.gif
  • Posts: 1,678
    FoxRox wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Was an infinitely more satisfying end for me than SP in just about every way. Craig’s only the second Bond after Lazenby to not have a happy ending.
    Not just not a happy ending- a TOTAL ending. You don't kill the protagonist in a long running series unless you want to potentially kill the series. Now look- they'll wait four years until the general viewing audience has forgotten how they left the theatre disappointed that Bond died... more time wasted.

    As someone who still isn’t particularly joyful about the decision to kill Bond, I feel like it’s so obvious Craig is a different Bond from the ones that came before and there'll be a new one that isn’t the others the next time. Pop culture icon characters have died and come back plenty of times before - it just is what it is.

    Craig's Bond does exist in another universe from much of the other interpretations of Bond. To me Craig's world had one of the best Bonds but THE worst world. I'm glad they closed the book on this one which destroyed Spectre and Blofeld, had Bond and Blofeld as foster brothers, had Bond directly connected to HQ during his assignments, never encountered Tracy and a ton of other things that I hated. After Spectre I wrote off the series but NTTD brought me back with a terrific film and the promise of a much needed reboot to the world of James Bond.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 214
    I just hope that rebooted world does not include invisible cars, surfing on CGI waves and a Bond who looks like a smarmy one-dimensional mannequin model.

    I'll miss Craig. Hope me makes a cameo one day just to piss off the haters.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,517
    I just hope that rebooted world does not include invisible cars, surging on CGI waves and a Bond who looks like a smarmy one-dimensional mannequin model.

    I'll miss Craig. Hope me makes a cameo one day just to piss off the haters.

    Now that he's done with Bond, I think it would be awesome if he made a cameo as "unnamed MI6 agent" in a Mission Impossible film with TC.

    I agree with your sentiments here 100%.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,324
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Craig and EON knew they were sparking controversy for its own sake. They saw the reaction to the (awful) SW sequels, hell Craig even cameo'd in one of them. They knew they were essentially making the Bond version of The Last Jedi, where the hero is a broken-down wreck and gets bumped off for an annoying female replacement. They knew it'd piss off fans and they did it anyway.

    On the money there mate, that’s exactly why they did it. I work at EON and I was in a meeting where MGW suggested a traditional Bond gets the girl ending, for the fans. Unfortunately, Daniel Craig himself suddenly burst in ranting about how he didn’t want Star Wars to outwoke them, and demanding they change the script. Barbara, of course, just sat back and let him take control, because what Craig wants, Craig gets, and she really hates the fans. The ending happening to be a fitting conclusion the ongoing themes and character arcs of the era was pure coincidence, and don’t listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Feminazi Craig just wanted to copy Star Wars.

    Personally though, I’m pretty happy about that. I’m black and it’s nice to see our evil plan coming to fruition. We’re all in on it. The women, the blacks, the gays. And of course, the modern world has gone so mental and woke that nobody will dare stand up to our cultural genocide. There’ll be no more boring straight white men left on screen by the time we’re done B-)

    Best post I've read in ages, @thelivingroyale! :-D :-D
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,655
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Craig and EON knew they were sparking controversy for its own sake. They saw the reaction to the (awful) SW sequels, hell Craig even cameo'd in one of them. They knew they were essentially making the Bond version of The Last Jedi, where the hero is a broken-down wreck and gets bumped off for an annoying female replacement. They knew it'd piss off fans and they did it anyway.

    On the money there mate, that’s exactly why they did it. I work at EON and I was in a meeting where MGW suggested a traditional Bond gets the girl ending, for the fans. Unfortunately, Daniel Craig himself suddenly burst in ranting about how he didn’t want Star Wars to outwoke them, and demanding they change the script. Barbara, of course, just sat back and let him take control, because what Craig wants, Craig gets, and she really hates the fans. The ending happening to be a fitting conclusion the ongoing themes and character arcs of the era was pure coincidence, and don’t listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Feminazi Craig just wanted to copy Star Wars.

    Personally though, I’m pretty happy about that. I’m black and it’s nice to see our evil plan coming to fruition. We’re all in on it. The women, the blacks, the gays. And of course, the modern world has gone so mental and woke that nobody will dare stand up to our cultural genocide. There’ll be no more boring straight white men left on screen by the time we’re done B-)

    I never knew you were part of the ANTIFA conspiracy against the arts. You've concealed it well up until now. Of course, you've only told us now that you feel your in a position to kill us, yes? Exposition before the climax & all? ;)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    @thelivingroyale, member of:
    Special Executive of
    Cancel Culture
    Traditionalism Destruction
    Radical Left
    EON to Star Wars Transformation

    ;)
  • Posts: 1,394
    I just hope that rebooted world does not include invisible cars, surfing on CGI waves and a Bond who looks like a smarmy one-dimensional mannequin model.

    I'll miss Craig. Hope me makes a cameo one day just to piss off the haters.

    Yes but we all want to know what you think of Pierce Brosnan.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,655
    @thelivingroyale, member of:
    Special Executive of
    Cancel Culture
    Traditionalism Destruction
    Radical Left
    EON to Star Wars Transformation

    ;)

    LOL, well done.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    Thanks, I was really reaching there lol (and I identify as politically left ;) )
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,655
    Thanks, I was really reaching there lol (and I identify as politically left ;) )

    I'm politically Centrist (but they call it leftist/socialist in my country). ;)
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