No Time To Die: Why It Should Not Have Been Made (The Way It Was)

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    chrisisall wrote: »
    CR was an okay place to start a reboot, but it messed up the end of the book so we could see Vesper die in an in-your-face way so we could get all teary...

    We're all entitled to our opinions, of course -- but on this particular point I have to disagree.

    One of Ian Fleming's lesser points as writer is that, occasionally, he felt the need to tell the reader that such-and-such had happened -- when he really should have SHOWED US that event happening. In GF the novel, for example, he has Tilly tell Bond (and by extension, us the readers) that her sister Jill was killed by Goldfinger painting her body in gold paint. In one of the movie's scripted improvements on the Fleming original, we are SHOWN the murdered golden girl -- and that moment is one of the most powerful scenes in the entire Bond canon. In CR the novel, Fleming lets us read Vesper's suicide note -- but he doesn't actually depict her suicide. Again, he tells us rather than shows us. Showing us is the preferable narrative path -- and that's something Fleming couldn't bring himself to do in the novel. The movie took the more dramatically effective path by actually showing us Vesper's death. Not so that we'd get all "teary" -- but so that we could experience her passing most effectively.

    Okay,
    A) the suicide note in the novel was intense & impactful for me. It was affecting without melodrama IMO.
    B) in the movie they see each other. Blurred underwater vision aside, it would be too dark.
    Your Goldfinger comments I agree with fully though.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    edited December 2021 Posts: 538
    I don’t think we’ll have another Bond “Bimbo”

    Good.

    In the 60's, characters like Honey Ryder were novel and subversive. Not a lot of sexually-charge content existed, and people were a lot more traditional back then.

    But now all sorts of mediums of entertainment are sexualized and it's commonplace. To where it's not original or provocative anymore. It's just a trope.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    I don’t think we’ll have another Bond “Bimbo”

    Good.

    In the 60's, characters like Honey Ryder were novel and subversive. Not a lot of sexually-charge content existed, and people were a lot more traditional back then.

    But now all sorts of mediums of entertainment are sexualized and it's commonplace. To where it's not original or provocative anymore. It's just a trope.

    Interesting comment here. The QOS leading lady was not blond, and didn't sleep w/Bond. That was sort of refreshing, eh?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    edited December 2021 Posts: 4,400
    Saying DAD is a masterpiece is like saying Batman and Robin is a masterpiece.

    But you do you. At the end of day, we each are our own critic.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Saying DAD is a masterpiece is like saying Batman and Robin is a masterpiece.

    But you do you. At the end of day, we each are our own critic.

    Batman & Robin is a masterpiece of hilarity. DAD is a masterpiece of not-taking-Bond-too-GDFing- seriously in the face of the soap opera crap that is NTTD...
  • Posts: 6,707
    DAD is among the top 20 films directed by Lee Tamahori, according to statistics.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    mattjoes wrote: »
    DAD is among the top 20 films directed by Lee Tamahori, according to statistics.

    Hahahahahah!!!!
  • NTTD worse than DAD? I mean I’ll accept anyone’s opinions...but man I can’t bring myself to agree with that.
  • Posts: 511
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I'm afraid I'm moving into @Murdock territory here... the Craig era is fast sliding into a box for me, one that I shall probably not want to re-open.
    CR was an okay place to start a reboot, but it messed up the end of the book so we could see Vesper die in an in-your-face way so we could get all teary...
    QOS was a step up IMO.
    From then on it all went to crap.
    One take away from NTTD- it showed me what an under-appreciated masterpiece Die Another Day is.

    Based on what I've seen thus far, EON is dead to me.
    I have zero faith that I will ever see a decent new James Bond film again in my lifetime.

    Unless they sell the franchise to a company that wants to bring the feel of the old days back when Bond was an adventure series, and not a damned soap opera....

    Adaptation is not a photocopier. What works in one medium (books) does not necessarily work in another (film) — particularly when the movies are, you know, about an image. Of course you *show* things in a movie, that's how you get an emotional response out of the audience!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,916
    Anything that means more scenes featuring Eva Green is a good thing in my book... :x
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Venutius wrote: »
    Anything that means more scenes featuring Eva Green is a good thing in my book... :x

    Well, there IS that....
  • Posts: 6,707
    Although I felt that NTTD, like SP before it, had much more humor and an overall lighter tone than Craig's 2nd and 3rd films, it's still such a substantially different film from something like DAD, that I have a hard time comparing them and saying one is better than the other. They're both Bond films but the "mixture" of elements makes them quite different.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Although I felt that NTTD, like SP before it, had much more humor and an overall lighter tone than Craig's 2nd and 3rd films, it's still such a substantially different film from something like DAD, that I have a hard time comparing them and saying one is better than the other. They're both Bond films but the "mixture" of elements makes them quite different.

    "Here's to us."
    Bond gets blown TF up.
    Too far in either direction IMO....
  • Posts: 3,279
    chrisisall wrote: »
    One take away from NTTD- it showed me what an under-appreciated masterpiece Die Another Day is.

    Based on what I've seen thus far, EON is dead to me.
    I have zero faith that I will ever see a decent new James Bond film again in my lifetime.

    DAD a masterpiece?

    Ha ha ha ad infinitum....



    Yeah, he lost me there.
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 12,837
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Based on what I've seen thus far, EON is dead to me.
    I have zero faith that I will ever see a decent new James Bond film again in my lifetime.

    Unless they sell the franchise to a company that wants to bring the feel of the old days back when Bond was an adventure series, and not a damned soap opera....

    Was OHMSS a soap opera then? Or the book CR was based on? Or the end of MR, where Gala turns out to be engaged to someone else? That’s exactly the sort of twist you see in the soaps. Who knows, if Fleming had lived then maybe he’d even have gone full Eastenders and had Bond and Kissy’s kid suddenly turn up on his doorstep. I don’t get why he was allowed to have Bond fall in love and things like that, but any original Bond stories that do it are instantly labelled melodramatic soap operas.

    And anyway, Bond has always been hit and miss, and it’s always been a broad church of wildly different films. That wouldn’t change if EON sold it, and I think that variety keeps things interesting. Just wait and see if you enjoy the next reboot more.
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 214

    Yeah, he lost me there.

    I was just thinking....if NTTD was really as Fleming as you'd like it....Craig would be smoking a cigarette in every scene. Even when the bombs fall.


  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Bond has always been hit and miss, and it’s always been a broad church of wildly different films. That wouldn’t change if EON sold it, and I think that variety keeps things interesting. Just wait and see if you enjoy the next reboot more.
    See, I don't know about YOU, but I might not live long enough to see the bulk of the next reboot if they hire another actor that really doesn't like Bond enough to come back to the role without extended time off before being lured back by a bigger & bigger paycheck. Add to that, the crap writing that is done now by committee to somehow make Bond relevant in the post 9-11/Bourne era... at least we'll get the next two Mission: Impossible films on a timely basis. Cruise likes Hunt...
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,505
    I watched NTTD again with my Mrs last night, she wondered why none of women in the film felt sexy, aside from Paloma. It's like they were all too serious to be seen as attractive

    She said she really missed that glamorous side of Bond from the film and I totally get what she means. NTTD liked glamour and it hurt the film because it felt very ordinary. Bond should be grounded but the characters should be relatable but appear other worldly.
    I think that's why everyone loved Paloma, not only was she sexy, charming and capable but she appeared to be enjoying herself
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526

    Yeah, he lost me there.

    I was just thinking....if NTTD was really as Fleming as you'd like it....Craig would be smoking a cigarette in every scene. Even when the bombs fall.


    He should have lit one up as the missiles were coming down.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,330
    Instead the missiles smoked him. =))
  • Posts: 511
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I watched NTTD again with my Mrs last night, she wondered why none of women in the film felt sexy, aside from Paloma. It's like they were all too serious to be seen as attractive

    She said she really missed that glamorous side of Bond from the film and I totally get what she means. NTTD liked glamour and it hurt the film because it felt very ordinary. Bond should be grounded but the characters should be relatable but appear other worldly.
    I think that's why everyone loved Paloma, not only was she sexy, charming and capable but she appeared to be enjoying herself

    Part of the unfortunate reality of this is when you have a character shift into a role of "mother" — movies (usually) stop sexualizing them; sort of that Madonna/Whore thing at play. Can't cross the streams too much.

    After Mathilde is revealed, Madeleine doesn't wear dresses (contrast this to before Mathilde is revealed where her costumes are dresses or a very tight top). Honestly a little surprised that *after* the reveal, they still had a scene of them [Bond/Swann] naked in bed together AND a pretty lengthy kiss. That kind of stuff usually doesn't happen with moms in movies!
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573

    Yeah, he lost me there.

    I was just thinking....if NTTD was really as Fleming as you'd like it....Craig would be smoking a cigarette in every scene. Even when the bombs fall.


    He should have lit one up as the missiles were coming down.

    That would have been so very badass lol.
  • Posts: 6,707
    Murdock wrote: »
    Instead the missiles smoked him. =))

    Perhaps the next film should be called Missile 2 Da Face, as they were saying before. To be directed by Justin Lin.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 2021 Posts: 2,916
    He should have lit one up as the missiles were coming down.
    The cigar that Paloma gave him to pass to Felix!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 2021 Posts: 2,916
    Although, Brits of a certain age might've expected the music from the old Hamlet cigar ad to start up...

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,916
    .

  • edited December 2021 Posts: 12,837
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Bond has always been hit and miss, and it’s always been a broad church of wildly different films. That wouldn’t change if EON sold it, and I think that variety keeps things interesting. Just wait and see if you enjoy the next reboot more.
    See, I don't know about YOU, but I might not live long enough to see the bulk of the next reboot if they hire another actor that really doesn't like Bond enough to come back to the role without extended time off before being lured back by a bigger & bigger paycheck. Add to that, the crap writing that is done now by committee to somehow make Bond relevant in the post 9-11/Bourne era... at least we'll get the next two Mission: Impossible films on a timely basis. Cruise likes Hunt...

    MI is on a similar sort of release schedule to Bond isn’t it? Every three or four years. Sadly I think that’s probably all there’s an appetite for with these sorts of films nowadays. Spies don’t really hold the cultural capital that they used to, and I’m not sure the Cubby method of churning out Bond on a mission every two years would last long in a blockbuster landscape where there’s massively popular comic book films all year round. I think the reason Bond still does so well is that they’ve turned it into an event series.

    And Craig wouldn’t have done five films if he didn’t like Bond. He hates the celebrity of it, he finds the physical side gruelling, he’s been injured making every single film, and it’s not like he needs the money anymore. But he still kept coming back and trying to find interesting things to do with it. Look at the shape he got himself in every time, and the creative involvement he pushed for. He wouldn’t have gone to those lengths if he didn’t care. Ignore the tabloids and watch the leaving speech he made to the crew, or watch him tear up on Graham Norton when he talks about leaving. He loved the role.
  • Posts: 14,816
    l
    I just hope that rebooted world does not include invisible cars, surfing on CGI waves and a Bond who looks like a smarmy one-dimensional mannequin model.

    I'll miss Craig. Hope me makes a cameo one day just to piss off the haters.

    I'm very late I this thread, but I agree 100% @MrsAuralSects
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Craig and EON knew they were sparking controversy for its own sake. They saw the reaction to the (awful) SW sequels, hell Craig even cameo'd in one of them. They knew they were essentially making the Bond version of The Last Jedi, where the hero is a broken-down wreck and gets bumped off for an annoying female replacement. They knew it'd piss off fans and they did it anyway.

    On the money there mate, that’s exactly why they did it. I work at EON and I was in a meeting where MGW suggested a traditional Bond gets the girl ending, for the fans. Unfortunately, Daniel Craig himself suddenly burst in ranting about how he didn’t want Star Wars to outwoke them, and demanding they change the script. Barbara, of course, just sat back and let him take control, because what Craig wants, Craig gets, and she really hates the fans. The ending happening to be a fitting conclusion the ongoing themes and character arcs of the era was pure coincidence, and don’t listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Feminazi Craig just wanted to copy Star Wars.

    Personally though, I’m pretty happy about that. I’m black and it’s nice to see our evil plan coming to fruition. We’re all in on it. The women, the blacks, the gays. And of course, the modern world has gone so mental and woke that nobody will dare stand up to our cultural genocide. There’ll be no more boring straight white men left on screen by the time we’re done B-)

    Best post I've read in ages, @thelivingroyale! :-D :-D

    Same here.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 650
    slide_99 wrote: »
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    Maybe it was because he was the first Bond she cast.

    Because Craig was the first Bond actor in over 40 years to deliver 2 classics. And played the role convincingly. And cracked a billion.

    People on this forum are saying that Craig was sort of just forced because Barbara was personally obsessed with him. But it's not just Barbara. Millions of people love Craig as Bond to a greater extent than the 4 previous actors.
    On the money there mate, that’s exactly why they did it. I work at EON and I was in a meeting where MGW suggested a traditional Bond gets the girl ending, for the fans. Unfortunately, Daniel Craig himself suddenly burst in ranting about how he didn’t want Star Wars to outwoke them, and demanding they change the script. Barbara, of course, just sat back and let him take control, because what Craig wants, Craig gets, and she really hates the fans. The ending happening to be a fitting conclusion the ongoing themes and character arcs of the era was pure coincidence, and don’t listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Feminazi Craig just wanted to copy Star Wars.

    Personally though, I’m pretty happy about that. I’m black and it’s nice to see our evil plan coming to fruition. We’re all in on it. The women, the blacks, the gays. And of course, the modern world has gone so mental and woke that nobody will dare stand up to our cultural genocide. There’ll be no more boring straight white men left on screen by the time we’re done B-)

    I figured it was something like that.

    Just FYI: you may want to have your internal sarcasm-meter adjusted. It seems not to be registering a fairly obvious example...

    I would've thought my sarcasm was obvious, too. Obviously I don't believe Craig is a transvestite IRL. That pic is from a commercial he did a decade ago.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,523
    Wow, @chrisisall, this has to be a first for us. We've never been so diametrically opposed in any debate ever before if memory serves. I must say, I have read some remarkably insightful arguments here, but also a lot of anger and hyperbole. The latter are posts I prefer not to comment on. All I can say is, I've seen the film six times now, and it continues to entertain me. But if you don't like the film, then you don't, and that's nobody's business.

    The thing that does surprise me a bit, is when you say that the EON Bond is pretty much over for you, or something along that line. I'm sure you'll agree that EON folks have managed to reshape Bond before. Bond is dead, long live Bond. A new 007 will step in, carte blanche. When he does, you'll be just as curious as me, don't you think? ;-)
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