Live And Let Die vs Tomorrow Never Dies - By the Elements

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  • BennyBenny Classified Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,436
    PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: GE
    Action: GE
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE

    GE -8
    SF - 9

    That was a close one.



  • Murdock wrote: »
    I think some people are being biased now (some in favour of GE and some in favour of SF).

    For all those who are voting 17-0 or 17-1 to GE, try to look past your nostalgia for Goldeneye and look at things objectively. I love Goldeneye too and prefer it to Skyfall but there is stuff SF does better (I don't see how anyone could say GE has better cinematography for example).

    Same goes for the people giving landslide victories to SF. You might not like the Brosnan era but try to look past that and look at things objectively. There is stuff GE does better (I don't see how anyone could say that SF has better action for example).

    Isn't the point of this thread about bias anyway?

    I think you can prefer one film to another and still say that other films do certain things better.

    I'm heavily biased towards LTK for example (it's my favourite) but if I pit it against say OHMSS, and break it down element by element like we do in this thread, I'm not going to say that it's more glamourous, that the cinematography is better or that the score is better because objectively, I don't think it is. LTK's cinematography makes it look cheap at times, it's not very glamourous at all (although I think that's the point, it's meant to be gritty) and while I like Kamens score it's got nothing on OHMSS, which might be Barrys best masterpiece.

    Basically, there's a different between favourite and best, is what I'm trying to say. You can enjoy one film more than other and like it better while still admitting that the other is technically (so looking at things like cinematography, editing, etc) better.

    Like I said, my favourite Bond film is LTK but I think when looking at which Bond film is best objectively, from a technical film making perspective (so acting, script, cinematography, direction, etc) CR wins.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,282
    Murdock wrote: »
    I think some people are being biased now (some in favour of GE and some in favour of SF).

    For all those who are voting 17-0 or 17-1 to GE, try to look past your nostalgia for Goldeneye and look at things objectively. I love Goldeneye too and prefer it to Skyfall but there is stuff SF does better (I don't see how anyone could say GE has better cinematography for example).

    Same goes for the people giving landslide victories to SF. You might not like the Brosnan era but try to look past that and look at things objectively. There is stuff GE does better (I don't see how anyone could say that SF has better action for example).

    Isn't the point of this thread about bias anyway?

    I think you can prefer one film to another and still say that other films do certain things better.

    I'm heavily biased towards LTK for example (it's my favourite) but if I pit it against say OHMSS, and break it down element by element like we do in this thread, I'm not going to say that it's more glamourous, that the cinematography is better or that the score is better because objectively, I don't think it is. LTK's cinematography makes it look cheap at times, it's not very glamourous at all (although I think that's the point, it's meant to be gritty) and while I like Kamens score it's got nothing on OHMSS, which might be Barrys best masterpiece.

    Basically, there's a different between favourite and best, is what I'm trying to say. You can enjoy one film more than other and like it better while still admitting that the other is technically (so looking at things like cinematography, editing, etc) better.

    Like I said, my favourite Bond film is LTK but I think when looking at which Bond film is best objectively, from a technical film making perspective (so acting, script, cinematography, direction, etc) CR wins.

    On the whole, I prefer GoldenEye even though Skyfall is in my top 3.
  • Posts: 3,336
    PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: GE
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: GE
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE

    9-8 to GoldenEye
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    PTS: SF (The train fight was pretty darn good)
    Title Track: SF (I like them both, but Adele brought back the classic voice)
    Title Credits: GE (Admit it, you like seeing the hot girls smashing the Soviet relics)
    Main Villain: GE ( A very good parallel, but Alec was a 00 and managed to build himself a pretty good empire)
    Main Bond Girl: GE (Severine was done a disservice. Natalya probably would have won anyway).
    Overall Plot: SF (Destroying MI6 and going after M was original. Going after Russians, been there and done that).
    Dialogue: SF (I didn't hear Famke Janssen quoting Lord Tennyson).
    Score: SF (U2 wasn't involved in SF).
    Settings: SF (They actually went to Istanbul and Shanghai).
    Action: GE (The tank chase was brilliant. Kind of sad seeing Bond's childhood home destroyed).
    Humor: GE (More risqué. ONATOP!)
    Cinematography: SF (I loved how SF captured the impending dreariness in Scotland)
    Benign Bizarre: GE (No one wanted to see Joe Don Baker's cheek).
    Suspense: SF (Judy Dench's death was one for the ages).
    Minor Characters: GE (A very formidable cast was GE).
    Glamour: GE (Got to go with a Monaco casino).
    Ally: GE (Yeah it's Jack, but Bond really didn't get much help outside of MI6)

    In a mild surprise on my part, GoldenEye beats Skyfall 9-8.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    PTS: GE (It's an absolute classic even if it goes a little over the top.)
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: SF
    Main Villain: GE (I love Trevelyan's character.)
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE (So many memorable lines!)
    Score: SF (Just barely.)
    Settings: SF
    Action: GE
    Humor: GE (Sometimes goes a little too far but when it connects it's comedy gold.)
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF (Another close call.)
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: GE
    Ally: SF (For Kincade, if he counts.)

    GE 9
    SF 8
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited August 2014 Posts: 13,744
    I love both films, but GE has more of what I look for in a Bond film.

    PTS: GE (close call here, SF's is really good)
    Title Track: GE (classic, sexy theme. SF felt too restrained, like Adele was holding back)
    Title Credits: GE (classic Cold War themes- SF's is awesome, but too cluttered)
    Main Villain: SF (close call because it's Bean, but Silva has more presence)
    Main Bond Girl: GE (Natalya, one of my faves)
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE (the writing's on the wall)
    Score: GE (it was different, and the cold, sterile sound reflects the atmosphere)
    Settings: GE (close call, but we have the weapons facility/dam, Russia, Cuba etc.)
    Action: GE
    Humor: GE (3 minutes, James- the same 3 minutes you gave me! *wheezing laughter*)
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: GE (Ourumov: You can't win/helicopter ejector seat escape/pen grenade GIVE ME THE CODES)
    Minor Characters: GE (hmmm, I think SF was seriously lacking in this dept. Oh, and killer thighs from Georgia)
    Glamour: GE (Monte Carlo casino, henchwoman drives a Ferrari)
    Ally: GE (Once again, SF's lacking here- have to give it to Wade. YO JIMBO!)

    GE: 14 / SF: 3

    Wow, I thought there would be a smaller gap, but there you go.
  • Posts: 11,188
    Will try and be as objective as I can:

    PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: SF
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: GE
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE (Robbie Coltrane)

    SF: 11
    GE: 6
  • Posts: 7,459
    PTS: SF
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: SF
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: SF
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: SF
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE

    SF: 15
    GE: 2


    Well, I tried to be as nice with Goldeneye as I could. Still an onslaught...
  • Posts: 7,459
    Same goes for the people giving landslide victories to SF. You might not like the Brosnan era but try to look past that and look at things objectively. There is stuff GE does better (I don't see how anyone could say that SF has better action for example).

    Some just aren't fan of the ridiculously unrealistic, OTT, Tour de force action in Goldeneye, and prefer the slightly more modest, suspenseful sequences in Skyfall. It's yet again a question of taste...
  • Posts: 11,188
    The action scenes are certainly impressive in SF but I love the tank chase in GE despite it being preposterous. Anyway in SF Bond occupies a digger and rips a train carriage apart. That's not exactly modest.
  • Posts: 7,459
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The action scenes are certainly impressive in SF but I love the tank chase in GE despite it being preposterous. Anyway in SF Bond occupies a digger and rips a train carriage apart. That's not exactly modest.

    True that. :)>- The key word of course is balance. Obviously I don't wan't my Bond films completely devoid of preposterous, OTT elements. However I don't wan't every action scene to be grand and exaggerated... like in Goldeneye. When Bond regularly takes on an army of russian soldiers all by himself, dives after an air plane (???), destroys Sankt Petersburg in a tank, and finishes off fistfighting on an enourmos antenna... the sum total is just too much for me...

    (IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO... just so you know...)

    (Just to clearify: IMO... no wait... IMHO) ;)
  • Posts: 11,188
    @jobo. Haha. I know I'm a GE fan but I'm not going to jump on you verbally for stating your view :p
  • Posts: 7,653
    jobo wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The action scenes are certainly impressive in SF but I love the tank chase in GE despite it being preposterous. Anyway in SF Bond occupies a digger and rips a train carriage apart. That's not exactly modest.

    True that. :)>- The key word of course is balance. Obviously I don't wan't my Bond films completely devoid of preposterous, OTT elements. However I don't wan't every action scene to be grand and exaggerated... like in Goldeneye. When Bond regularly takes on an army of russian soldiers all by himself, dives after an air plane (???), destroys Sankt Petersburg in a tank, and finishes off fistfighting on an enourmos antenna... the sum total is just too much for me...

    (IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO... just so you know...)

    (Just to clearify: IMO... no wait... IMHO) ;)

    SF with Bond getting a subway carriage thrown at him and him alone hiding with M in Scotland against a complete military helicopter (that in real life would have been wiped from the air in No time at all) arriving in Apocalypse now style seems very realistic too?

    I find it a sad affair that DC like PB gets lesser movies after an impressive 1st one, it says a shitload about EON. Only the quality drop that PB had was not as enormous as DC got. QoB is a really poor 007 outing that was made when they just should have taken more time to do it right. All of the original Bourne trilogy are quality wise a better product. And SF is just overrated with the exception of the titlesong. IMHO of course...
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 39,763
    PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: GE
    Settings: GE
    Action: GE
    Humor: GE
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: GE
    Suspense: GE
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE

    GE wins, 14 - 3. I love the SF track, the cinematography of SF is the best in the series, and of course it's indisputable that the glamour level is much higher. That's it, though.
  • edited August 2014 Posts: 1,068
    PTS: GE - Yes preposterous but I love it and it's pure Bond for me!
    Title Track: draw - I like them both equally and I'm a big Tina fan but Adele is impressive here...
    Title Credits: draw Yes a cop out, I do like seeing hot girls smashing Soviet relics but in fact I find it impossible to separate these - the SF start was so wonderfully impressive and mesmerising when I first saw it in the cinema yet I got the same buzz first watching GE)
    Main Villain: GE - Alec was great and in some respects was more than a match for Bond which is kind of the idea with his being an ex 00 - nice idea!
    Main Bond Girl: GE - so we're back to the whole was-there-really-a-Bondgirl-in-SF? thing - Severine was a blink in this and wasted. Natalya walked this - and my kind of gal too!).
    Overall Plot: GE - I simply have so much of a problem with SF's plot - it was for me totally ridiculous.
    Dialogue: GE.
    Score: GE.
    Settings: GE - Dreary Scotland? meh!
    Action: GE - it just worked all the way through, especially the tank chase - maybe I'm just not into crashing Underground trains. SF set piece in a home-alone styley just doesn't cut it and tannoy music helicopters has been done before.
    Humor: GE - yes silly in places but I want to be entertained not depressed...
    Cinematography: SF - this was so well done here and far superior to GE's.
    Benign Bizarre: GE - back to the tank.
    Suspense: SF - expected the Bean/Bond hand to hand fight coming but not M dying.
    Minor Characters: GE - there's so much to choose from here in GE.
    Glamour: GE - more polish than SF.
    Ally: GE - loved the meeting scene with the Trabby and stiff assed Brit quip

    No surprise here for me really as I feel let down by SF and can't watch it but can always watch GE over and over.
    GE : 13
    SF : 2
    DRAW : 2
  • Posts: 75
    The two best post-Cubby movies. Let's see how they stack up.

    PTS: GE (one word wow, love Pierce mincing down the stairs, a way to declare I'm The New Bond Look Out, economy of movement))
    Title Track: GE (very camp, delicious camp - Adele is just wussy)
    Title Credits: GE (best in whole series)
    Main Villain: SF (Bean annoys me)
    Main Bond Girl: GE (SF has no main Bond girl, ineligible)
    Overall Plot: SF (SF has more suspense)
    Dialogue: GE (much funnier and more crisp, SF like all Purvis Wade movies full of clunkers)
    Score: SF (close call, two best Non Barry scores, both far better than Arnold)
    Settings: GE (SF too studio bound)
    Action: GE (quantity and quality, SF just quality)
    Humor: GE (SF big drawback is no laughs, GE quite a few)
    Cinematography: SF (close call, final shot of GE is my favourite)
    Benign Bizarre: SF (this quality has really been missing since Cubby)
    Suspense: SF (overall plotline more suspense, but GE has more suspense scenes with the pen, the helicopter, the trolley etc)
    Minor Characters: GE (no contest, one of the best casts of characters in any Bond... Boris...)
    Glamour: SF (GE a bit too 90s by comparison)
    Ally: GE (Jack Wade a better Felix than any official Felix)

    SF: 7
    GE: 10
  • Posts: 2,400
    PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE (close one)
    Score: GE (whoops)
    Settings: SF
    Action: GE
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE (Zukovsky!)

    Wow! 9-8 for GoldenEye when I prefer Skyfall!
  • PTS: SF
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: SF
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: SF
    Overall Plot: SF
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: GE
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: SF
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE

    15-2 for Skyfall...
  • Posts: 414
    PTS: Skyfall (As exhilarating as GoldenEye's bungee jump was, Skyfall stands with some of the best opening teasers for its wide variety of stunts crammed in before the opening titles even roll)
    Title Track: Skyfall
    Title Credits: Skyfall
    Main Villain: Skyfall (Tough call, considering the strength of both Sean Bean's and Javier Bardem's performances, but I always thought Trevelyan was a little overrated based on having to imagine he has a history with Bond that we never saw in the decades leading up to GoldenEye)
    Main Bond Girl: Skyfall (Even with it being tricky to determine who qualifies as the "main" Bond girl in Skyfall, any Bond girl's better than Natalya)
    Overall Plot: GoldenEye (Save the world vs Save M)
    Dialogue: Skyfall
    Score: Skyfall (Thomas Newman's score is much more in the vein of John Barry than Eric Serra's is)
    Settings: Skyfall
    Action: GoldenEye (Both are quality over quantity as far as action scenes are concerned, but GoldenEye had a few more setpieces that were epic in scale)
    Humor: GoldenEye (As far as comic relief goes, GoldenEye has Q, Wade, and Boris almost completely devoted to it)
    Cinematography: Skyfall (Roger Deakins, the only Bond cinematographer so good that I actually know him by name)
    Benign Bizarre: GoldenEye (EMP emitting satellite, KGB assassin whose weapon of choice is her thighs, villain with distinct disfigurement given to him by the hero)
    Suspense: Skyfall
    Minor Characters: GoldenEye
    Glamour: Skyfall
    Ally: GoldenEye

    Skyfall: 11
    GoldenEye: 6

  • PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: GE
    Settings: SF
    Action: GE
    Humor: GE
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: GE
    Ally: SF

    Very tough one to do, I love both these films so much.

    9-8 Goldeneye
  • Any final entries before we wrap this round up?
  • Posts: 1,181
    PTS: GE (As unbelievable as it is, I still love GE's opening.)
    Title Track: GE (I like both songs, but I like Tina's voice a bit more)
    Title Credits: SF (I love the new title sequences)
    Main Villain: SF (Silva is a bit more memorable and gives more of a sinister performance)
    Main Bond Girl: GE (I wish there were more Bond girls in Skyfall)
    Overall Plot: GE (The threat of Goldeneye feels more dangerous.)
    Dialogue: GE (I like the humor in GE)
    Score: SF (GE's score was very unique, but I do enjoy the newer scores better)
    Settings: GE (Russia, Cuba)
    Action: GE (Close one, but I prefer the action scenes in GE)
    Humor: GE (No contest)
    Cinematography: SF (Hands down, SF is a beautiful looking film)
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF (When I first saw Severine, I didn't expect her to die so quick.
    Minor Characters: GE (Ouromov, Mishkin, Zukovsky)
    Glamour: GE
    Ally: GE (Zukovsky, Wade)

    It's hard to pick between two great films

    11-6 GE
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,302
    PTS: GE
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: SF
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: GE
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: GE
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamour: SF
    Ally: GE

    9-8 to SkyFall. This was a pretty close one for me. Good battle, but I would say that the categories SF wins are by a larger margin than the categories GE wins for my ranking.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Somehow the title track does not seem to be a big issue, Adele easily is considered better than Tina Turners. And I have both on cd single format.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Adele easily is considered better than Tina Turners

    Presumptive. Based on what?

    Skyfall's title track is beating GoldenEye's at the moment. For what it's worth, @SaintMark picked GE's.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Birdleson wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Adele easily is considered better than Tina Turners

    Presumptive. Based on what?

    Skyfall's title track is beating GoldenEye's at the moment. For what it's worth, @SaintMark picked GE's.

    Yeah that is a mistake I have corrected. Thank you for noticing.

  • Well, it's been a great match, but all good things must come to an end. By a margin of 258-250-2, GoldenEye ekes out a victory over Skyfall. Poor Skyfall, losing two close matches to two great Bond movies. Anyway, on to our next matchup. Actually, no Craig movie has won yet, shockingly enough. On that note, Quantum of Solace will face off against The World Is Not Enough in a match requested a while back. Here goes nothing!

    PTS: TWINE
    Title Track: TWINE
    Title Credits: Tie
    Main Villain: TWINE (counting Elektra here)
    Main Bond Girl: QoS
    Overall Plot: QoS (close one, although neither is much to write home about)
    Dialogue: QoS
    Score: QoS
    Settings: QoS
    Action: QoS
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: QoS (Shaky cam wins!)
    Benign Bizarre: TWINE
    Suspense: QoS
    Minor Characters: TWINE (gotta give Desmond Llewellyn something)
    Glamour: TWINE
    Ally: QoS (A great Felix edges Zukovsky)

    Quantum of Solace works out a 9-7-1 victory over The World Is Not Enough! Your entries (and a mod to change the title) please.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited September 2014 Posts: 17,628
    I honestly don't know which will win here...

    PTS: TWINE
    Title Track: TWINE
    Title Credits: TWINE
    Main Villain: TWINE
    Main Bond Girl: QoS
    Overall Plot: QoS
    Dialogue: QoS
    Score: QoS
    Settings: Tie
    Action: QoS
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: QoS
    Benign Bizarre: TWINE
    Suspense: QoS
    Minor Characters: QoS
    Glamour: TWINE
    Ally: TWINE

    WOW! 8 to 8 & a tie to tie! :-O
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited September 2014 Posts: 7,314
    Good idea.

    PTS: QoS (Short and sweet. TWINE has some great moments but it's too darn long.)
    Title Track: TWINE
    Title Credits: QoS
    Main Villain: TWINE
    Main Bond Girl: QoS (Underrated in general and mops the floor with Richards.)
    Overall Plot: TWINE (I suppose.)
    Dialogue: QoS
    Score: QoS (My favorite from Arnold)
    Settings: TWINE (Close call.)
    Action: QoS
    Humor: TWINE
    Cinematography: QoS
    Benign Bizarre: TWINE
    Suspense: QoS
    Minor Characters: TWINE
    Glamour: TWINE
    Ally: TWINE

    TWINE 9 QoS 8

    On paper TWINE has some very strong elements that were never quite realized in the execution.
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