Live And Let Die vs Tomorrow Never Dies - By the Elements

edited October 2014 in Bond Movies Posts: 2,483
SF and CR seem to be as evenly matched as any two Bond films you'd care to name. Hence, even though individuals may argue that one is clearly superior to the other, the overall percentage of SF and CR partisans in the Bondosphere probably evens out in the end. And I suspect this hypothesis will be borne out in the following exercise. Please follow my example.

PTS: SF
Title Track: SF
Title Credits: CR
Main Villain: CR
Main Bond Girl: SF (Severine, if there's any doubt)
Overall Plot: CR
Dialogue: SF
Score: SF
Settings: SF
Action: CR
Humor: SF
Cinematography: SF
*Benign Bizarre: SF
Suspense: CR
Minor Characters: CR

*This is a term I coined to describe that critical element of the Bond world, going all the way back to Ian Fleming, wherein the reader/viewer is confronted by the bizarre, the otherworldly or the creepy. The Benign Bizarre, however, never veers into the grotesque. This element takes us almost to the edge of the horror or sci-fi genres, but dissipates before it can define the book or film in which it appears.
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Comments

  • edited October 2013 Posts: 157
    Great idea for a thread, Khanners.

    PTS: CR
    Title Track: CR
    Title Credits: CR
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: SF
    Overall Plot: CR
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    *Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: CR
  • Posts: 2,400

    PTS: CR - The best five minutes I've ever had in a cinema
    Title Track: CR - Ive warmed to Skyfall but nothing beats YKMN for me
    Title Credits: CR
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: CR (Vesper Lynd)
    Overall Plot: CR
    Dialogue: CR
    Score: CR
    Settings: SF - He's not got much of a travelogue in CR
    Action: CR
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF - Tough call for me. I almost want to call this a tie. Both films are the two best directed in the series history. I'll give it to SF since CR has dominated thus far
    *Benign Bizarre: SF - I don't understand the point of this one. Neither film really has this.
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: CR
  • Posts: 2,400
    Disagree, @Samuel001. This thread is a different concept than the others. This analyzes the individual elements of each film against eachother. It doesnt necessarily determine whether one film overall is better than the other.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    As you mentioned @Samuel001, there are at least three threads regarding the subject, so what's one more going to hurt? And, as @StirredNotShaken says, this one is a different subject.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited October 2013 Posts: 13,351
    I agree, you have a point both of you but the mods often think differently. If it's just comparing one film against another there are already places set up to do this, in as much detail as you like.

    One more thread is just more waste of space, so we've been told before. Someone far greater than I will have the final say and thank heavens for that!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,334
    PTS: CR
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: CR
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: CR
    Overall Plot: CR
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: CR
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    *Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: SF
  • Samuel, as others have pointed out, this thread is conceptually different from any other. I searched and found nothing quite like it. While other threads may allow posters to compare films, this one lays out a distinct framework for doing so. As such, I contend that it deserves to run its course.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    PTS: SF (although I do agree with StirredNotShaken that CR's first 5 mins is the most thrilling time I've had in the cinema but the stunning main titles and song is part of that. As a standalone PTS SF shades it)
    Title Track: CR
    Title Credits: CR
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: CR
    Overall Plot: CR
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: CR
    Settings: SF
    Action: CR
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    *Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: SF[/quote]

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited October 2013 Posts: 40,566
    PTS: CR (SF comes in a very, very close second)
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: CR
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: CR
    Overall Plot: CR
    Dialogue: CR
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: CR
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    *Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: CR
  • Posts: 2,400
    PTS: SF (although I do agree with StirredNotShaken that CR's first 5 mins is the most thrilling time I've had in the cinema but the stunning main titles and song is part of that. As a standalone PTS SF shades it)

    Oh, I'm talking solely from the opening shot to the gunbarrel. It's cinematic perfection IMO.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,566
    PTS: SF (although I do agree with StirredNotShaken that CR's first 5 mins is the most thrilling time I've had in the cinema but the stunning main titles and song is part of that. As a standalone PTS SF shades it)

    Oh, I'm talking solely from the opening shot to the gunbarrel. It's cinematic perfection IMO.

    I love the way they incorporated the gunbarrel. Fantastic work.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,637
    Thank you, @Samuel001, for linking us to those threads. You are right in saying that we prefer to do without duplicate threads. This one may, however, stay alive for a while, as it seems to spark some interesting discussion. ;-)
  • Posts: 6,396
    Good thread this. I've been waiting to see if it was gonna get closed down before submitting mine but @DarthDimi's letting it continue I see :-)

    PTS: CR
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: SF
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: CR
    Overall Plot: CR
    Dialogue: CR
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: CR
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    *Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: SF
  • Posts: 2,400
    How about for a compromise, if we want to do this for more film pairings, we just do them in this thread? I dont want to see it get closed.
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Can we do TLD vs LTK in the same way at some point down the line? Those two are quite evenly matched too and it's always been really close for me, I'd like to read peoples opinions on that.

    PTS: Skyfall
    Title Track: Casino Royale
    Title Credits: Casino Royale
    Villain: Skyfall
    Bond girl: Casino Royale
    Plot: Skyfall
    Dialogue: Casino Royale
    Score: Casino Royale
    Settings: Casino Royale
    Action: Casino Royale
    Humour: Skyfall
    Cinematography: Skyfall
    Benign Bizarre: Skyfall
    Suspense: Casino Royale
    Minor Characters: Skyfall

    Apparently CR wins but I prefer Skyfall. It's close but I just enjoy it more.
    *Benign Bizarre: SF - I don't understand the point of this one. Neither film really has this.

    I think SF has it. First of all there's Silva, his appearance (the scars, the weird blonde hair, the way he can take his jaw out) and his personality (camp, flamboyant psychopath). I think bizarre and creepy are the best ways of describing him. There's also the komodo dragons in the casino, that was bizarre.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited October 2013 Posts: 13,351
    PTS: Casino Royale
    Title Track: Skyfall
    Title Credits: Casino Royale
    Main Villain: Skyfall
    Main Bond Girl: Casino Royale
    Overall Plot: Casino Royale
    Dialogue: Skyfall
    Score: Casino Royale
    Settings: Skyfall
    Action: Skyfall
    Humor: Skyfall
    Cinematography: Skyfall
    Benign Bizarre: Skyfall
    Suspense: Casino Royale
    Minor Characters: Skyfall

    Which films are we comparing next? This would be a good idea in order to get this past a couple of pages.

    EDIT: Ah, I see @StirredNotShaken has beaten me to it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    PTS: SF (although I do agree with StirredNotShaken that CR's first 5 mins is the most thrilling time I've had in the cinema but the stunning main titles and song is part of that. As a standalone PTS SF shades it)

    Oh, I'm talking solely from the opening shot to the gunbarrel. It's cinematic perfection IMO.

    In that case I dont agree. I'm talking from the opening shot to the last shot of the main titles. Stunning.

    The GB into the opening bars of the main titles is almost perfection (CGI blood a bit too fast for my liking to give it 100%) and makes up for all the crimes against the GB that the Craig films have since perpetrated.
  • Samuel001 wrote:
    Which films are we comparing next?

    TLD vs LTK, GE vs CR, TSWLM vs MR.

    They're my nominations.
  • Posts: 6,396
    How about for a compromise, if we want to do this for more film pairings, we just do them in this thread? I dont want to see it get closed.

    Perhaps rename the thread "James Bond Grudge Match"?

    I also think next should be TLD Vs LTK. Perhaps do a new round once a week? Give everyone an opportunity to have their say.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited October 2013 Posts: 13,351
    The Living Daylights and Licence To Kill are almost the mirror image of these two films, a good idea.

    Anyway, let's wait for @Perilagu_Khan, he has the final say.
  • Posts: 6,396
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Which films are we comparing next?

    TLD vs LTK, GE vs CR, TSWLM vs MR.

    They're my nominations.

    I reckon YOLT Vs TSWLM and MR Vs DAD would be a better match up.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,637
    How about for a compromise, if we want to do this for more film pairings, we just do them in this thread? I dont want to see it get closed.

    Valid suggestion, @StirredNotShaken! I suggest we do follow that path. Surely @Perilagu_Khan will agree to it. ;-)

  • Maybe we could have all three Gilberts? YOLT vs TSWLM vs MR?

    I think DAD vs DAF would be a good one too because they are similar (diamond powered space lasers, crap send off's for good Bond actors).
  • Posts: 6,396
    Maybe we could have all three Gilberts? YOLT vs TSWLM vs MR?

    I think DAD vs DAF would be a good one too because they are similar (diamond powered space lasers, crap send off's for good Bond actors).

    I'm afraid my responses to that would be all N/A ;-)
  • Can we do TLD vs LTK in the same way at some point down the line? Those two are quite evenly matched too and it's always been really close for me, I'd like to read peoples opinions on that.

    PTS: Skyfall
    Title Track: Casino Royale
    Title Credits: Casino Royale
    Villain: Skyfall
    Bond girl: Casino Royale
    Plot: Skyfall
    Dialogue: Casino Royale
    Score: Casino Royale
    Settings: Casino Royale
    Action: Casino Royale
    Humour: Skyfall
    Cinematography: Skyfall
    Benign Bizarre: Skyfall
    Suspense: Casino Royale
    Minor Characters: Skyfall

    Apparently CR wins but I prefer Skyfall. It's close but I just enjoy it more.
    *Benign Bizarre: SF - I don't understand the point of this one. Neither film really has this.

    I think SF has it. First of all there's Silva, his appearance (the scars, the weird blonde hair, the way he can take his jaw out) and his personality (camp, flamboyant psychopath). I think bizarre and creepy are the best ways of describing him. There's also the komodo dragons in the casino, that was bizarre.

    That is next on my agenda, actually. But we'll wait until this one burns out before moving on to the next pairing.

  • Great idea for a thread. Let's hope it continues...

    PTS: CR
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: CR
    Villain: SF
    Bond girl: CR (Vesper, naturally)
    Plot: CR
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: CR
    Settings: SF
    Action: CR
    Humour: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: SF

  • Hope I'm not too late! Here's mine:

    PTS: CR
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: CR
    Villain: SF
    Bond girl: CR
    Plot: CR
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: CR
    Settings: CR
    Action: CR
    Humour: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: SF

  • PTS: CR. Close, but the black and white tense atmosphere of Casino Royale pushes it just pass Skyfall's explosive chase.
    Title Track: CR. Close again, but You Know My Name is just too sweet.
    Title Credits: CR. Casino Royale continues to edge out wins.
    Main Villain: SF. Biggest margin so far.
    Main Bond Girl: CR. Takes the biggest margin title right back.
    Overall Plot: CR. Less confusing, more logical.
    Dialogue: CR. It's close, but it wins again.
    Score: SF. No strong feeling one way or the other.
    Settings: CR. It's good to have a Bond movie in England, but CR's locations are too varied and exotic.
    Action: CR. SF wants for action sequences between the PTS and parliament scenes.
    Humor: SF. It;'s close yet again, but SF takes it.
    Cinematography: SF. Biggest margin of the whole comparison. CR isn't bad, but SF is wonderful.
    Benign Bizarre: SF. Silva carries this category, as well he should. The komodo dragon fight doesn't help.
    Suspense: SF. By a hair. The PTS, stairwell fight, poisoning sequence, torture scene, and ending are all great, but they're overwhelmed by the sheer force of the parliament scene and the big ending.
    Minor Characters: CR. Mr. White, Obanno, Dryden, and Mendel put it a ways ahead of Skyfall.

    CR takes it 9-6, by my count.
  • Posts: 1,497
    PTS: CR
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: CR
    Main Villain: SF
    Main Bond Girl: SF
    Overall Plot: SF
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: CR
    Action: CR
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    *Benign Bizarre: SF (but neither really, both films steer clear of this)
    Suspense: CR
    Minor Characters: SF
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