Live And Let Die vs Tomorrow Never Dies - By the Elements

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited January 2014 Posts: 13,911
    Getafix wrote:
    MajorDSmythe beat me to it. But when you think about it rationally, there really is no contest. I fully expect to see SF assume its rightful mid-table ranking position over the next decade or so, as time and critical good sense takes effect. It's interesting how TLD has gradually risen in the rankings over recent years while the Brosnan dreck, after all the initial froth, has mainly sunk down towards the sediment at the bottom. Quality will out in the end. Just as overhyped mediocrity is eventually exposed for what it is.

    Dr No lacks the slickness of the following films, but I still like it. SF, and I know that I am about to climb into the cooking pot here, is the most grossly overrated film in the series. Also, Dr No is Bond, straight down the line, it has no delusions of grandeur, unlike SF.

    Let's be frank here though, you are letting your emotions cloud completely your judgement. Your hatred of Craig and this current era is causing you to be hysterically biased.

    No, I think I just have a different opinion, one that doesn't cause me to fawn over SF. But I will openly admit that I don't like Craig as Bond, on any level.

    For what it's worth, I was optimistic when Craig was announced. I wasn't one of those crying 'bland Bond' following the press conference, and attacking Craig for wearing water wings. My dislike has come from seeing him in action, I earned my opinion.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I agree that SF is the most overhyped and overrated film in the series. It's not abysmal, but nowhere near as good as so many on here are making out. I would also say that I've been slightly underwhelmed by Craig as Bond in all three outings. I suppose after the lost Brosnan decade almost anything was going to be an improvement but in DC's defence, at least he brings a touch of gravitas back to the series. But I get where you're coming from. I expected and hoped for more from Craig and as I've said a number of times I think he has it in him to deliver a top notch Bond movie - I just don't feel he's been given the plot or script to do that yet.

    I'm starting to sound like one of those Brosnan apologists who said he should have been given one last film...
  • Skyfall is going to decline in the ratings eventually, just like GoldenEye did. Both films will still have their defenders and ones who just don't like them, but these things have a way of balancing out. Brosnan was loved as Bond, is now going through a backlash, and will eventually settle out. Craig's still Bond, so he's got even longer to wait.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Skyfall is going to decline in the ratings eventually, just like GoldenEye did. Both films will still have their defenders and ones who just don't like them, but these things have a way of balancing out. Brosnan was loved as Bond, is now going through a backlash, and will eventually settle out. Craig's still Bond, so he's got even longer to wait.

    That's what I feel. People just won't be raving about SF in the same way in 10 to 20 years time.
  • Posts: 6,396
    Getafix wrote:
    Skyfall is going to decline in the ratings eventually, just like GoldenEye did. Both films will still have their defenders and ones who just don't like them, but these things have a way of balancing out. Brosnan was loved as Bond, is now going through a backlash, and will eventually settle out. Craig's still Bond, so he's got even longer to wait.

    That's what I feel. People just won't be raving about SF in the same way in 10 to 20 years time.

    And you know that how?
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Basically a hunch I have. For years I didn't understand why everyone was raving about Brosnan and his dodgy films and hey presto, give it a decade or two and most of them have slid rapidly into the lower tiers in the vast majority of rankings.

    Eventually the quality factor overrides the hype and perceptions of the films adjust to their proper place.

    It's called a prediction. These threads are full of them. I don't require or expect everyone to agree.

  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    You shouldn't, because I still love Brosnan movies.
  • Brosnan's also in the midst of a pretty strong Craig-based backlash. While I doubt you'll ever be converted, @Getafix, barring divine intervention, his films will likely make a comeback after people start to get a bit tired of Craig's darker approach and the series swings back to silliness.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Brosnan's also in the midst of a pretty strong Craig-based backlash. While I doubt you'll ever be converted, @Getafix, barring divine intervention, his films will likely make a comeback after people start to get a bit tired of Craig's darker approach and the series swings back to silliness.

    May be! The Brosnanites can always hope. If you want serious sillyness though, surely the discerning Bond fan is always going to go straight for a Roger classic ?
  • Posts: 6,396
    Getafix wrote:
    Basically a hunch I have. For years I didn't understand why everyone was raving about Brosnan and his dodgy films and hey presto, give it a decade or two and most of them have slid rapidly into the lower tiers in the vast majority of rankings.

    Eventually the quality factor overrides the hype and perceptions of the films adjust to their proper place.

    It's called a prediction. These threads are full of them. I don't require or expect everyone to agree.

    You didn't state it as a prediction but as fact.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I said 'That's what I feel'.

    It was a prediciton about the future, so clearly cannot be fact.
  • Posts: 1,817
    PTS: SF
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: SF
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamor: SF
    Ally: DN

    SF - 12
    DN - 5
  • Getafix wrote:
    Skyfall is going to decline in the ratings eventually, just like GoldenEye did. Both films will still have their defenders and ones who just don't like them, but these things have a way of balancing out. Brosnan was loved as Bond, is now going through a backlash, and will eventually settle out. Craig's still Bond, so he's got even longer to wait.

    That's what I feel. People just won't be raving about SF in the same way in 10 to 20 years time.

    And you know that how?

    Well, obviously, people were raving about FRWL 51 years ago and now look. Er...wait a minute.

  • PTS: SF
    Title Track: SF
    Title Credits: SF
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: SF
    Score: SF
    Settings: SF
    Action: SF
    Humor: SF
    Cinematography: SF
    Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: SF
    Minor Characters: SF (Kincade)
    Glamor: SF
    Ally: SF ("Welcome to Scotland" has no equal in Dr No)
  • Posts: 7,653
    PTS: SF
    Title Track: DN
    Title Credits: DN
    Main Villain: DN
    Main Bond Girl: DN
    Overall Plot: DN
    Dialogue: DN
    Score: DN
    Settings: DN
    Action: DN
    Humor: DN
    Cinematography: DN
    *Benign Bizarre: SF
    Suspense: DN
    Minor Characters: DN
    Glamor: DN
    Ally: DN
  • This round ends tomorrow, get in your last entries!
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 3,236
    At the end of this latest round, we have Skyfall triumphing over Dr. No by a margin of 262-223-5. Dr. No put up a good fight and had a late rally, but Skyfall was too strong. Next up, we have two more defining entries and series-savers, in the form of The Spy Who Loved Me vs. GoldenEye!

    PTS: TSWLM (close one)
    Title Track: TSWLM (close one)
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: TSWLM (close one)
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: GE (close one, but not very good)
    Settings: TSWLM (close one)
    Action: GE (tank chase)
    Humor: TSWLM (Sir Rog is on a one-liner tour de force)
    Cinematography: GE
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM (for Jaws)
    Suspense: GE (close one)
    Minor Characters: GE (every minor character in the movie is great)
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: TSWLM (there's hardly even a definable ally and he's still better than Jack Wade)

    GoldenEye wins 9-8.

    Probably the closest match yet, and fitting, since they sit at #5 and #8, respectively.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,335
    PTS: GE
    Title Track: GE
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: GE
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: GE
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: GE
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: GE
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamor: GE
    Ally: GE
  • Posts: 2,400
    PTS: GE (this choice was EXCRUCIATING; two of the most iconic moments in the series, the ski jump vs. the bungee jump, as well as generally an absolutely fantastic PTS for both films)
    Title Track: TSWLM (Not that close for me; I do like GoldenEye, it's solid, but NDIB is light years ahead)
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: GE (I've always loved Serra's score; I do like Hamlisch's a lot, though)
    Settings: GE (The Russian tundra, London, Monte Carlo, the streets of St. Petersburg, and Cuba. What an excellent variety)
    Action: GE
    Humor: TSWLM (GoldenEye has some very, VERY weak lines)
    Cinematography: GE
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM (for Jaws)
    Suspense: GE (not so close)
    Minor Characters: GE (GE has my favourite overall cast of a Bond film ever)
    Glamor: TSWLM (GE is very gritty, even in the exotic locales such as Cuba)
    Ally: TSWLM (Carter > Wade)

    12 - 5 for GoldenEye. That's really strange, because GE sits at my #5 while TSWLM is very close behind at #8
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 1,595
    Oh man! These two sit super close on my list. GoldenEye typically wins out for pure nostalgia.

    PTS: GE - barely
    Title Track: TSWLM - Turner belts it but nobody does it better than this title track
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE - best villain in the franchise
    Main Bond Girl: GE - not really close
    Overall Plot: TSWLM
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: TSWLM - Neither are as bad as they're made out to be but GE is still one of the lesser scores
    Settings: TSWLM - super close. the lushness of Spy Who edges it out.
    Action: GE - a lot closer than i would've originally thought
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: GE - For Xenia primarily
    Suspense: GE - close one
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamor: TSWLM - not even close
    Ally: TSWLM - i actually like wade. close one.

    9-8 in favor of GoldenEye. SEVERAL (Bizarre, PTS, Plot, Action, Humor, ally, Suspense) could've gone either way for me.
  • Birdleson wrote:
    Oh man! These two sit super close on my list. GoldenEye typically wins out for pure nostalgia.

    Man, I know that I'm dealing with fans much younger than myself when their "nostalgia" pick is 18 years newer than the other choice (which I saw in high school). I don't mean that as a negative.

    Yeah, GoldenEye was the first Bond film I ever saw. I 'spose I am a youngster.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    PTS: GE (This was an extremely close call)
    Title Track: TSWLM
    Title Credits: TSWLM
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: TSWLM
    Score: TSWLM (I actually happen to enjoy Hamlisch's score quite a bit)
    Settings: TSWLM (Egypt sealed the deal for me)
    Action: GE
    Humor: TSWLM (It's hard to beat Sir Rog in his prime)
    Cinematography: GE
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: GE
    Minor Characters: TSWLM
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: TSWLM

    Fairly close but TSWLM wins 10-7. Both are very good Bond films though.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,051
    Gee, the best films by their respective Bonds, and perhaps the first Bond film I ever saw (Spy- TV) vs. perhaps the first one I saw on VHS. A duel between titans... let's see who ends up on top, James.

    PTS: TSWLM
    Title Track: GE
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: TSWLM
    Dialogue: TSWLM
    Score: TSWLM
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: GE
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: TSWLM
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: GE

    TSWLM: 10
    GE: 7

    Not surprisingly, Spy wins the bout. However, I did expect the scores to be closer.
  • Posts: 2,107
    PTS: TSWLM
    Title Track: TSWLM
    Title Credits: TSWLM
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: TSWLM
    Dialogue: TSWLM
    Score: TSWLM
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: GE
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: TSWLM
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: GE
  • Posts: 6,396
    PTS: TSWLM
    Title Track: TSWLM
    Title Credits: TSWLM
    Main Villain: TSWLM
    Main Bond Girl: TSWLM
    Overall Plot: TSWLM
    Dialogue: TSWLM
    Score: TSWLM
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: TSWLM
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: TSWLM
    Minor Characters: TWSLM
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: TSWLM

    A whitewash for my fav Bond.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    PTS: TSWLM
    Title Track: GE
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: TSWLM
    Dialogue: TSWLM
    Score: TSWLM
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: GE
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: GE (the Seveneya sequence edges it - you really feel Natalya is in danger).
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: GE

    9:8 TSWLM
  • Posts: 19,339
    PTS: TSWLM
    Title Track: GE
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: TSWLM
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: TSWLM
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: GE
    Minor Characters: TWSLM
    Glamour: TSWLM
    Ally: GE

    TSWLM : 9 / GE : 8 - Close !
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    PTS: TSWLM
    Title Track: GE
    Title Credits: GE
    Main Villain: TSWLM
    Main Bond Girl: TSWLM
    Overall Plot: TSWLM
    Dialogue: TSWLM
    Score: GE
    Settings: TSWLM
    Action: TSWLM
    Humor: TSWLM
    Cinematography: TSWLM
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: TSWLM
    Minor Characters: TSWLM
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: TSWLM

    14-3 for TSWLM. This could go either way in the end, I think.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I've made a couple of changes to my rankings. Spy does have more colour and visual glamour to it...but I love some of the action and characters GE contains. Mishkin was a more intriguing character in his 2 scenes than either Fekkish or Max.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited February 2014 Posts: 4,467
    PTS: Goldeneye
    Title Track: TSWLM
    Title Credits: TSWLM
    Main Villain: GE
    Main Bond Girl: GE
    Overall Plot: GE
    Dialogue: GE
    Score: TSWLM
    Settings: GE
    Action: GE
    Humor: GE
    Cinematography: GE
    Benign Bizarre: TSWLM
    Suspense: GE
    Minor Characters: GE
    Glamor: TSWLM
    Ally: GE
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