Terminator: Dark Fate (2019)

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 5,170
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    So, the sequels have been cancelled and DF's director won't work with Cameron again...

    :-?

    Back to square one.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 32,959
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    So, the sequels have been cancelled and DF's director won't work with Cameron again...

    :-?

    As is tradition.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ocean Club, Bahamas.
    Posts: 3,021
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    So, the sequels have been cancelled and DF's director won't work with Cameron again...

    :-?

    Back to square one.

    Okay. Luckily we'll have plenty of Avaturd sequels!
  • Posts: 5,767
    And I´m starting to give up hopes that The Abyss will ever appear on br or 4K. I sold my DVD years ago, when Cameron was quoted that a 4K Restauration of The Abyss was finished and Ready for release. That must have been like six years ago or so. I probably will by the DVD again some day...
  • mtmmtm
    edited November 2019 Posts: 3,266
    I thought this was a very enjoyable film; great opening chase sequence which it probably doesn't match again (the silly CG flying around inside a plane scene should have been chopped out); and Arnie gives a great turn in it.
    I did pop into this thread to see if anyone here had a problem with women starring in it (after all of the Lashana Lynch nonsense) and had to only go back one page. I'm on other forums which aren't 007-related and no-one even mentioned it. Bond fandom is worrying...
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ocean Club, Bahamas.
    Posts: 3,021
    boldfinger wrote: »
    And I´m starting to give up hopes that The Abyss will ever appear on br or 4K. I sold my DVD years ago, when Cameron was quoted that a 4K Restauration of The Abyss was finished and Ready for release. That must have been like six years ago or so. I probably will by the DVD again some day...

    What a horrible production that was...

    Not the movie, but behind the scenes. He's such an asshole.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited November 2019 Posts: 3,054
    mtm wrote: »
    I thought this was a very enjoyable film; great opening chase sequence which it probably doesn't match again (the silly CG flying around inside a plane scene should have been chopped out); and Arnie gives a great turn in it.
    I did pop into this thread to see if anyone here had a problem with women starring in it (after all of the Lashana Lynch nonsense) and had to only go back one page. I'm on other forums which aren't 007-related and no-one even mentioned it. Bond fandom is worrying...

    I haven't watched the movie, but I think it's silly to believe Terminator fans are misogynists considering the main character is Sarah Conner and she's arguably the most compelling heroine in the series (I like John Connor but he's nowhere near as interesting as her).

    That said, it is undeniable that this movie killed off
    John Connor so that he could be replaced with female characters
    and, judging from what I read on the Internet and heard from friends, the new female heroine (I think her name's Dani) is flat and boring.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,138
    Walecs wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I thought this was a very enjoyable film; great opening chase sequence which it probably doesn't match again (the silly CG flying around inside a plane scene should have been chopped out); and Arnie gives a great turn in it.
    I did pop into this thread to see if anyone here had a problem with women starring in it (after all of the Lashana Lynch nonsense) and had to only go back one page. I'm on other forums which aren't 007-related and no-one even mentioned it. Bond fandom is worrying...

    I haven't watched the movie, but I think it's silly to believe Terminator fans are mysoginist considering the main character is Sarah Conner and she's arguably the most compelling heroine in the series (I like John Connor but he's nowhere near as interesting as her).

    That said, it is undeniable that this movie killed off
    John Connor so that he could be replace with female characters
    and, judging from what I read on the Internet and heard from friends, the new female heroine (I think her name's Dani) is flat and boring.

    That's the problem, and that's the only problem. It's flat characterization, and little nuance to the way they are portrayed and interact with each other. And there is undeniably an attempt to have a 'wow' moment in the reveal that Dani is the savior instead of her 'son'.

    Pushed by the fact that we are led to believe for almost half the film that it will be her child. Worst of all, the exposition to this is delivered by Sarah Conner which makes her look antiquated and completely undermines the character. Sarah Conner is the biggest Badass in the Terminator franchise, and she started out as a nobody and had to work herself up to that level. For her to say "they are not scared of you, they are scared of your womb"(I'm paraphrasing) almost completely ruins this character. That's why i will gladly forget this film exists.

    I'm not against any of that if it earned it's place and fits the narrative. Problem is, this is a Terminator film, it's about Killer Robots from the future, and not female empowerment.
    The fact that Dani is the savior of mankind is empowering all in itself, there is no need to use cheap narrative tricks like that and manipulate your audience with unnecessary 'gotcha' BS.
    They could have instead focused on the fact that Dani will be trained by Sarah to become the future leader. One Badass trains another.

    But instead it's badly written and incompetently handled.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 5,170
    Sarah wasn't ruined at all and there was nothing thematically and/or in terms of dialogue that she didn't utter in T2. The criticisms seem like quite the stretch to me. She wasn't ruined at all. John was for sure, but Sarah? Nah.

    I agree that Dani was a tad underdeveloped, though. Her character takes some lengthy leaps to get to her badass "ready to fight for the future" point by the end of the film, but everything else is perfectly in keeping with the first two.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,138
    Sarah wasn't ruined at all and there was nothing thematically and/or in terms of dialogue that she didn't utter in T2. The criticisms seem like quite the stretch to me. She wasn't ruined at all. John was for sure, but Sarah? Nah.

    Ok i agree, she wasn't ruined. That might be a strong word actually, and I initially liked where they left her off (as Mentor to Dani).

    Still i was underwhelmed by all the characters, and the franchise overall has been ruined now, so it makes little difference.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 5,170
    00Agent wrote: »
    Sarah wasn't ruined at all and there was nothing thematically and/or in terms of dialogue that she didn't utter in T2. The criticisms seem like quite the stretch to me. She wasn't ruined at all. John was for sure, but Sarah? Nah.

    Ok i agree, she wasn't ruined. That might be a strong word actually, and I initially liked where they left her off (as Mentor to Dani).

    Though the franchise overall has been ruined now, so it makes little difference.

    True. But it's been doomed for a few years now. I don't think it matters how good Dark Fate was or wasn't; people weren't enthusiastic about it regardless and most haven't been excited about a Terminator film since 2003.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,138
    00Agent wrote: »
    Sarah wasn't ruined at all and there was nothing thematically and/or in terms of dialogue that she didn't utter in T2. The criticisms seem like quite the stretch to me. She wasn't ruined at all. John was for sure, but Sarah? Nah.

    Ok i agree, she wasn't ruined. That might be a strong word actually, and I initially liked where they left her off (as Mentor to Dani).

    Though the franchise overall has been ruined now, so it makes little difference.

    True. But it's been doomed for a few years now. I don't think it matters how good Dark Fate was or wasn't; people weren't enthusiastic about it regardless and most haven't been excited about a Terminator film since 2003.

    Well i was :)) I was super excited all the way to the first screening.

    Here's a quote of mine from August:
    00Agent wrote: »
    Not a trailer, but still some new footage in there...


    That footage looks awesome, better than the trailer, especially the CGI. I hope this film will be super successful. It will also set a precedent for Bond, with all the ridiculous and made up controversy around both films now.

    That gave me a good laugh today, going through my old comments.
    I was totally excited for this film, that's why i have such a hate-on for it now lol.

    I should probably leave this thread for good now. Not much left to do here...
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,054
    00Agent wrote: »
    And there is undeniably an attempt to have a 'wow' moment in the reveal that Dani is the savior instead of her 'son'.

    Is that really supposed to be a 'wow' moment? I figured that out the moment I saw the teaser trailer...

    Talk about Broferhauser being a Captain Obvious Reveal :))
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,138
    Walecs wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    And there is undeniably an attempt to have a 'wow' moment in the reveal that Dani is the savior instead of her 'son'.

    Is that really supposed to be a 'wow' moment? I figured that out the moment I saw the teaser trailer...

    Talk about Broferhauser being a Captain Obvious Reveal :))

    Me too actually, it was very obvious and really nothing special about it. But they beat around the bush for almost half the film. Dani kept asking "why me", then Sarah planted false ideas that it's her "womb" they are afraid of, until the big reveal in the second half, where i guess everyone was supposed to go *gasp*.
    But it didn't work out that way... because no one went to see it in the first place :))

    This is me commenting on the first offical still from the film, back in August 2018, waaay before any script leaks or story points.
    00Agent wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »

    I'm taking a wild guess here (not a spoiler as i know nothing, but read at your own risk) :
    Mackenzie Davis is basically the new Kyle Reese, send back in time for protection. The Girl on the left is the new Target, possibly the mother of the future resistance leader? Or it might be her himself.
    The fact that the new "bad" Terminator is also Mexican only makes that more obvious. You would want to send a killer who can blend in around the target.
    And Linda is just coming along for the ride, due to her extensive experience. She's probably hiding out in Mexico anways.
    Will be interesting to see how she gets involved in all that. Probably Mackenzie will recruit her.
    I bet Arnold will only have an extended cameo here, similar to Ford in BR2049, you will not see him for a while.

    It's actually quite sad how predictable this film turned out to be
  • mtmmtm
    Posts: 3,266
    00Agent wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    And there is undeniably an attempt to have a 'wow' moment in the reveal that Dani is the savior instead of her 'son'.

    Is that really supposed to be a 'wow' moment? I figured that out the moment I saw the teaser trailer...

    Talk about Broferhauser being a Captain Obvious Reveal :))

    Me too actually, it was very obvious and really nothing special about it. But they beat around the bush for almost half the film. Dani kept asking "why me", then Sarah planted false ideas that it's her "womb" they are afraid of, until the big reveal in the second half, where i guess everyone was supposed to go *gasp*.

    Yeah from the way we were presented with Sarah leaping to a conclusion and Grace not confirming it it was obvious she was wrong, but I was hoping it would be something a bit cleverer and more unexpected than Dani just being John, because that was, as you say, the only logical conclusion. I don't know what that could have been, but I'd have liked it to have been worth the payoff.

  • Posts: 5,767
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    And I´m starting to give up hopes that The Abyss will ever appear on br or 4K. I sold my DVD years ago, when Cameron was quoted that a 4K Restauration of The Abyss was finished and Ready for release. That must have been like six years ago or so. I probably will by the DVD again some day...

    What a horrible production that was...

    Not the movie, but behind the scenes. He's such an asshole.
    @JamesCraig, did you partake in the production?

  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,677
    boldfinger wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    And I´m starting to give up hopes that The Abyss will ever appear on br or 4K. I sold my DVD years ago, when Cameron was quoted that a 4K Restauration of The Abyss was finished and Ready for release. That must have been like six years ago or so. I probably will by the DVD again some day...

    What a horrible production that was...

    Not the movie, but behind the scenes. He's such an asshole.
    @JamesCraig, did you partake in the production?

    Cameron's assholiness is somewhat well documented. Wasn't it Ed Harris who nearly passed out from asphyxiation on The Abyss, all because Cameron wanted a good shot and didn't cut in time? Harris punched him after that, I believe.
  • Posts: 1,784
    boldfinger wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    And I´m starting to give up hopes that The Abyss will ever appear on br or 4K. I sold my DVD years ago, when Cameron was quoted that a 4K Restauration of The Abyss was finished and Ready for release. That must have been like six years ago or so. I probably will by the DVD again some day...

    What a horrible production that was...

    Not the movie, but behind the scenes. He's such an asshole.
    @JamesCraig, did you partake in the production?

    Cameron's assholiness is somewhat well documented. Wasn't it Ed Harris who nearly passed out from asphyxiation on The Abyss, all because Cameron wanted a good shot and didn't cut in time? Harris punched him after that, I believe.
    Camerons's assholiness is what makes him a great director IMO.
  • Posts: 303
    Stating the obvious here, but no one really knows what will click with the audience and what won’t.

    Personally I would have thought that a Han Solo origin story would have been a massive success. Turns out that it wasn’t. Yet a Joker origin story is printing money like it’s a bank. Oh well.

    Similarly I’d have bet good money, before it came out, that It part 1 would have been useless, no one wants to see yet another Stephen King adaptation. That turned out to be wrong. I would then have bet that part 2 would be great. That turned out to be wrong too.

    I think with hindsight it’s easy to see why Dark Fate didn’t click with audiences but before it’s released no one really knows, and especially while films are being made no one involved in the production has any idea if their film will succeed or not.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 5,170
    Stating the obvious here, but no one really knows what will click with the audience and what won’t.

    Personally I would have thought that a Han Solo origin story would have been a massive success. Turns out that it wasn’t. Yet a Joker origin story is printing money like it’s a bank. Oh well.

    Similarly I’d have bet good money, before it came out, that It part 1 would have been useless, no one wants to see yet another Stephen King adaptation. That turned out to be wrong. I would then have bet that part 2 would be great. That turned out to be wrong too.

    I think with hindsight it’s easy to see why Dark Fate didn’t click with audiences but before it’s released no one really knows, and especially while films are being made no one involved in the production has any idea if their film will succeed or not.

    It's easier to get an idea of how a film (especially one from a once popular IP) will do than you make out. Sure, it's certainly not concrete - nothing is - yet six months ago I said most people didn't give a rat's ass about Terminator anymore. And here we are. The film is a dud, for a lot of reasons other than its actual quality.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,138
    It's true that you can never predict the outcome of a film.

    That's why you hire the best possible people that you can, make sure that their Vision aligns, and hope for the best.

    Personally i can never seperate the art from the artist, and I am a bit obsessed with the process. For example with NTTD i have watched close to 30 movies and shows, from Cary Fukunaga to Linus Sandgren, Dan Romer, Pheobe Waller-Bridge, Tom Cross (Editor) etc. And many others. And I still don't have a concrete idea how this film will play out or feel. But at least I know we have a Team of outstandig quality.

    With Terminator it's different. I didn't pay as much attention to begin with. We had Tim Miller, which i couldn't really judge because he only made Deadpool, and I liked that one so that was fine. I knew they didn't have stan winston, and that they likely didn't wanna go for practical effects + merged with CGI like in T2 so it didn't matter. I had to hope that they would know how to utilze CGI properly. And Tim Miller stated in his 1 hour interview with Cameron that he wanted the CGI to "feel real", which was either a lie or he had no clue how to do it (my guess is the later).

    I knew they didn't wanna use Brad Fidel, to utilize one of the most influential movie soundtracks (for me) even though they could have, so again i had to hope they would understand the significance of that music and would pick someone who could deliver something... I don't wanna say similar, but worthy. And that Xl Junkie guy was a relatively good pick in my opinion (based on Mad Max) but again, after watching the film i must come to the conclusion they did not understand the significance at all... Or were simply not able anymore to pull it off.

    So all that we are left with is James Cameron, and the hope that his influence would be good enough to steer this film in the right direction, and give it at least some narrative and tonal continuity...

    But nope, now after the film bombed i have to find out that Miller that little egomaniac didn't want to listen to Cameron and rejected some of his most fundamental ideas of narrative and tone, just so he could do "his" film... Thinking that someone out there would be more interested in Tim Millers Terminator than James Camerons Terminator...

    I can't even begin to comprehend what is wrong in this guys head.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited November 2019 Posts: 3,054
    Stating the obvious here, but no one really knows what will click with the audience and what won’t.

    Personally I would have thought that a Han Solo origin story would have been a massive success. Turns out that it wasn’t. Yet a Joker origin story is printing money like it’s a bank. Oh well.

    To be fair Han Solo is tied to Harrison Ford; Ford is a big part of the reason the character is beloved and why some didn't care about the Solo movie (including me although I recognise that Ehrenreich did a great job with the character). The Joker character, on the other hand, is much bigger than any actor who ever portrayed him.
    I think with hindsight it’s easy to see why Dark Fate didn’t click with audiences but before it’s released no one really knows, and especially while films are being made no one involved in the production has any idea if their film will succeed or not.

    I also disagree with this. As soon as the plot leaked online everyone complained about it; Miller should have probably had some "reading test" and see what a potential audience thought of the story.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Style and Grace
    Posts: 3,737
    You know, the film has made 250 million at the box office. Doesn't cover the costs of making it, for sure, but that amount must mean the audience is interested to some extent. Not to the degree of something like Joker or Marvel of course, but still.

    I don't know if it would've made much more had it received outstanding reviews, though. The story of Terminator seems fairly played out. It doesn't naturally lend itself to endless films like James Bond does, and we've seen the chases in the present, the future war, etc. Either they a) wait a long time before making another one, or b) don't make any more at all. If (when) they do make more, they better make them in high quality, and with some degree of invention.

    Take this with a grain of salt since I've not seen the film, but had I been in the writers' room and someone had suggested to kill off John Connor only to replace him with another future leader of the resistance, I would've strongly opposed to that. Connor is the one crucial character in these films. Either you don't kill him off, or you kill him off and don't replace him with anyone in particular.

    Every storytelling decision one makes comes with a price tag attached to it. If such an important character were to die, the film would have to deal extensively with the plot consequences and the emotional fallout of that decision. Otherwise, it wouldn't feel right.
  • Posts: 11,839
  • mtmmtm
    Posts: 3,266
    He's right you know.
  • Posts: 11,839
    Arnie is always right ;)
  • Posts: 11,937
    Nice one Arnie!!! =D>
  • edited April 29 Posts: 11,839

    Good forward thinking from Arnie, a great inspiration.
  • Posts: 11,839

    :))
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