Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (30th June 2023)

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    Strangely, MI7 is the exact same runtime as NTTD. Right down to the minute.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,724
    Hope you’re okay with the next M:I film’s 163 minute running time!
    I'm not gonna watch the next M:I film until it get's really, really cheap on a Blu-ray. And I haven't seen a single John Wick movie. Not sure I feel like changing that.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 205
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Hope you’re okay with the next M:I film’s 163 minute running time!
    I'm not gonna watch the next M:I film until it get's really, really cheap on a Blu-ray. And I haven't seen a single John Wick movie. Not sure I feel like changing that.

    I haven’t seen *any* of the MI films or John Wick. What’s hilarious is I used to always be where they filmed some of the scenes for MI 1, including when they filmed it —and still didn’t see the film. I started it recently, but… kind of wandered off.
  • If Mutt had been played by a better actor who didn't shout his mouth off, chances are he would have survived Vietnam!
  • Posts: 1,394
    talos7 wrote: »
    DoD will have legs…

    Well that post didn’t age well!


  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    If Mutt had been played by a better actor who didn't shout his mouth off, chances are he would have survived Vietnam!

    Mangold might have still killed Mutt, just based off of how LOGAN had everyone killed off screen after DAYS OF FUTURE PAST gave them all a happy ending!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,123
    Across the sands and oceans of time, Indiana Jones wins.

  • Posts: 1,394
    Across the sands and oceans of time, Indiana Jones wins.

    It seems right now,that Ethan Hunt wins and unlike Indy and Bond,is getting better with every movie.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited July 2023 Posts: 8,636
    @AstonLotus ... You've been reading too much Nolte over at your Breitbart, 😂
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,123
    Who, me?

    Craig Bond and Ford Indiana Jones couldn't have had better intro and outro films, very satisfying.

    I'll see M:I Dead Reckoning tomorrow, expect to enjoy it. But not so likely to enjoy it as much as DOD or any Bond film. Or to watch it twice or more in a theater or revisit it any time soon in the future. As I would a Bond film or even Indiana Jones, I care more about those characters and their films impress.

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  • Posts: 1,564
    DOD left me wanting less.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 3,279
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I will say I’ve never seen a movie better-paced than Raiders in my whole life. It’s remarkable how brisk it moves while maintaining an epic scope.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are a few 10/10 action films which are faultless. Take anything out or add anything to it could ruin a 100% perfect movie. And this is Raiders.

    Back to the Future, Die Hard, Star Wars/TESB and Jaws also hold this title too.

    There are not many films that you can claim are 10/10 perfect, but these films are.
  • Posts: 6,677
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I will say I’ve never seen a movie better-paced than Raiders in my whole life. It’s remarkable how brisk it moves while maintaining an epic scope.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are a few 10/10 action films which are faultless. Take anything out or add anything to it could ruin a 100% perfect movie. And this is Raiders.

    Back to the Future, Die Hard, Star Wars/TESB and Jaws also hold this title too.

    There are not many films that you can claim are 10/10 perfect, but these films are.

    Oh, absolutely! They nail all the right markers. Narrative, action, originality, sometimes cinematography, timelessness, the acting masks, the soundtracks, the lore potential (which then becomes their undoing), ... They are instant classics. High standards for the industry, and shouldn't be picked upon by vulturing studio capitalised culture, but they are, to no end. They should, instead, analise what did work for them, and then create other originals, other products. But I guess it's in the nature of the beast to be autosarcophagic.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    Saw DOD last Thusday, I just loved it. Wasn't sure until the hat got snatched off the clothes line, but I walked out feeling great.
  • Posts: 6,677
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Saw DOD last Thusday, I just loved it. Wasn't sure until the hat got snatched off the clothes line, but I walked out feeling great.

    Me too. I walked away feeling even better than after M:IDRp1. And I wasn't expecting it.
  • mattjoesmattjoes matjoevakia
    edited July 2023 Posts: 6,789
    Thoughts after a second viewing of the film (SPOILERS AHEAD):

    1)

    I really like the structure of this story and the plot of the film. A few random things I would change:
    a) Colonel Weber trying to kill Jones with the fake lance instead of his loaded pistol. I get the "poetry" in the idea of his using the lance, but I'd rearrange the situation to make it more logical.
    b) Voller gets hit by the wooden pole at way too much speed, and right in the face.
    c) A blunder someone else pointed out: In his lecture, Indy says "this is in the test" or something like that... then retires that same day. I guess another teacher will take over for the remainder of the course? It could happen, I guess, but it just feels messy.

    2)

    Because the early scenes in New York are rather dense, plot wise, with several characters being introduced, it's hard to pay attention to all details. This time I enjoyed noticing all the camera shots and bits of dialogue introducing certain characters and their distinctive features, such as when Klaber asks the G-man with crutches how did the accident happen (I love that crutches guy, by the way, brief as his role might be).

    3)

    Still love the time travel stuff. Also, the front window of the plane is so cool-looking. I think I heard a Star Wars sound somewhere in that scene, probably when the plane malfunctions at some point.

    4)

    The big thing that hit me on this second viewing is a big problem with the movie, which I didn't notice clearly enough the first time. After the Morocco chase, Helena overshadows Indy. I first found this particularly noticeable on the boat scenes. Indy greets Renaldo at the docks, but we stay with Helena and Teddy and hear their comments. On the scene with the card trick, Indy is mostly in the background. Then, even when Indy talks about Marion and Mutt, in its cinematography and editing, that scene feels like it belongs to Helena, as if this was her film and Indy was a supporting character getting a moment to shine. The next day, Helena is looking at the liquor bottle and checking out the muscular sailor, with Indy once again in the background somewhere. Then she rescues him from the eels. Then she delivers this long dialogue regarding the location of Archimedes' tomb, all while producing the dynamite that allows them to escape, with Indy only lighting the fuse. It's just too much, too many moments in a row where Indy is second banana!

    Later on, when Indy is captured, he does very little while on the plane. Meanwhile, Helena and Teddy follow him, with Helena getting on the moving plane in a great display of physical prowess, and Teddy flying a plane by himself... while Indy is just sitting there talking. Later, Helena pulls a lever and a bunch of people fall of the plane, then shoots Voller, with Indy saving her once and then providing a parachute. Yes, he does something, but it absolutely feels like the scale is tilted the wrong way.

    It's not a problem when supporting characters to get their scenes to shine, and the protagonist doesn't even have to be there, but in this film it feels like it happens way, way, way too much. I never got this feeling from any of the previous films. You know what this made me think of? The fears that Nomi was going to steal the movie from James Bond in No Time to Die, something that never happened. It does happen here, though, and that's unacceptable. The lead character should be the lead. @SomethingThatAteHim summed it up best:
    Maybe worst of all Indy felt barely there despite being in almost every scene, kind of like a ghost haunting his own film.

    That leads me into the last point...

    5)

    Indy's arc through the film isn't satisfactory. There was an interview with James Mangold in which he said:
    "What I kind of envisioned when I came on was pretty simple,” he said. “Which is that we give you a full-blast Indiana Jones movie like you knew them in the first 25 minutes, right? Then, you fall off a cliff and you land in a kind of ‘70s picture with a 70-year-old Indiana Jones in modern New York City with a series of clear human struggles and problems. But then, the movie slowly climbs its way back. This 70-year-old will end up living through his own Indiana Jones adventure again, but the movie earns its way there with this character kind of coming out of a bit of a slumber.”

    I think the idea is fine, but the film doesn't handle it well. Indy is morose in this film, but the ideal thing would have been to have him gradually come out of that, so that by the end of the movie he was pretty much the same joyful guy as in the prologue, only understandably less physical than before. This never happens. He remains serious, sad, even as he fascinated by what he finds. His vibe contrasts with Helena's sassy attitude, which helps her overshadow Indy and practically steal the film away from him.

    Elsewhere, someone pointed out Indy films always have one or more scenes where there is a glint in Indy's eyes and he smiles as he is mesmerized by an artifact he is holding, or thinking about. For example, it happens in Raiders of the Lost Ark in the map room, in Temple of Doom while reading the parchment and stealing the stones, in Last Crusade while talking with his father on the blimp about his journey, and in Crystal Skull when he first discovers the skull ("what is this thing?!"). By contrast, in Dial of Destiny, this barely happens. In Archimedes' tomb, I think I only saw him faintly smiling twice, and even at the end, when he is fascinated by ancient Sicily, there is a sadness to him. This time around, I sorely missed the adventurous side of him. I get that the idea was for him to begin the story in a bad place, but it feels like he hasn't changed much by the end.

    The resolution of the film isn't satisfactory either. Helena (once again) shouldn't have punched Indy out and brought him back to the present. She should have told him that, in going after people like Voller, his life had merit, and that Marion needed him. Then Indy should have made the choice to go back by himself, and gone to see Marion by himself.

    6) The prologue of the film remains really cool. Probably the best part of the film, along with the bit where they go back in time.

    ---

    So Dial of Destiny is a solid film overall, but I don't think it's a solid Indy film. The movie has a really cool story, a sense of danger and adventure to it, and a memorable climax, but the problems with Helena and Indy's character bring it down. At the moment I like Crystal Skull much better-- that's a solid Indy film. The script might not be as carefully handled, but the film has much more spark.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 3,169
    Great read @mattjoes - thank you. Good points about Helena overshadowing Indy.
  • Posts: 1,965
    Finally saw Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny. Much better than Crystal Skull and Temple of Doom but no where near as good as Raiders and Last Crusade. Overall very good film to end the series and for Harrison Ford to hang his hat on.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,724
    Just saw it for the second time tonight and liked it even better than the first time. I went there again today because it seems this was the final performance, and it will now be taken off the program of Hamburg's only movie theatre that regularly shows original versions of foreign-language films rather than movies dubbed in German. It seems they need to make room in their program for the likes of M:I-DR1, Oppenheimer and yes, Barbie. So my next viewing of DOD will be when the Blu-ray disc becomes available.

    I missed the first minutes today because I got stuck in traffic on the way to the S-Bahn (rapid transit train) that would take me there. I came in when Indy has that motorcycle chase with the train before he enters it. The upside is that I didn't have to see that overkill of garish pink that is the Barbie trailer again.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited July 2023 Posts: 13,123
    Yeah I loved it even more the second time as well.

    Different than "not an Indy film" (or "not a Bond film" for Craig's tenure), the unexpected and appropriate focus on the character makes it even more so an Indy film. A Bond film

    I do so appreciate the filmmakers went to these places and I'll always have them.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    mattjoes wrote: »
    This time around, I sorely missed the adventurous side of him. I get that the idea was for him to begin the story in a bad place, but it feels like he hasn't changed much by the end.
    I felt like he was basically back though most of the film, but older, and less energized because of it. Once he was shot though, he started slipping away again, and understandably so since he thought he was going to die! Blood loss and brain fog took over, and Helena (channeling Indy's spirit of directness) literally brought him back, and finally with the help of Marion's presence.
    The snatching of the hat off the clothes line was our tell on that.
    I went in unspoiled, and there was a moment when I thought they were going to No Time To Die Indy.
    But I walked out of the movie trying to hide tears of joy from the young ushers.

    A word on Mutt: as portrayed by Shia, I could totally believe him arguing with Indy over the merits of the war & signing up just to push back with no belief he'd ever be killed. The better dead than red thing. He'd SEEN stuff that would turn you white, and lived to tell about it, bolstering that adolescent invincibility factor.

    So basically I feel this movie was a work of art, and a more than fitting last Indy movie.

    I love them all in varying degrees, but Temple Of Doom remains my go-to favourite for a swell time.



  • HildebrandRarityHildebrandRarity Centre international d'assistance aux personnes déplacées, Paris, France
    Posts: 467
    Yet, there are a few things that sound clumsy about the death of Mutt. Mutt was born around 1938. He was 19 at the time of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull in 1957. The Vietnam war escalated at the end of the sixties when mass deployment of US troops started. So, we're not talking a rebellious teen trying to annoy his dad. He was nearly 30, he had finished college, etc., and it's contrived.
    It's not surprising that so many people thought of the very same joke from The Simpsons. Mutt was basically "poochied", a reference to "The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show" episode, a landmark moment for The Simpsons.

    The thing that makes the reveal of his death work is how much Ford is invested in the scene. His delivery is affecting. The circumstances of Mutt's death are not.
  • Mutt died on the way back to his home planet.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,696
    Yet, there are a few things that sound clumsy about the death of Mutt. Mutt was born around 1938. He was 19 at the time of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull in 1957. The Vietnam war escalated at the end of the sixties when mass deployment of US troops started. So, we're not talking a rebellious teen trying to annoy his dad. He was nearly 30, he had finished college, etc., and it's contrived.
    My take is he was conceived in about '39, born in '40, was 17 in CS, joined the army at 20 in '60, got killed 2 - 3 years into it.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    edited July 2023 Posts: 8,724
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Yet, there are a few things that sound clumsy about the death of Mutt. Mutt was born around 1938. He was 19 at the time of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull in 1957. The Vietnam war escalated at the end of the sixties when mass deployment of US troops started. So, we're not talking a rebellious teen trying to annoy his dad. He was nearly 30, he had finished college, etc., and it's contrived.
    My take is he was conceived in about '39, born in '40, was 17 in CS, joined the army at 20 in '60, got killed 2 - 3 years into it.
    Makes sense. After all, he could have joined the army well before the fake "Tonkin Incident" of 1964 which led to much more massive US involvement in Vietnam and the drafting of hundreds of thousands. He was not conscripted, but expressly "signed up" himself to piss off his father.

    PS:
    chrisisall wrote: »
    But I walked out of the movie trying to hide tears of joy from the young ushers.
    I can relate to that. Both times I watched it. Two old people finding common happiness works even with almost-superheroes.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 1,394

    SPOILERS…

    I thought DOD was ok for the most part.Phoebe Waller Bridge wasn’t as annoying as I’d feared ( but she still was kinda ).However,the film falls apart once Indy is shot ,so he’s basically out of commission for the rest of the film.

    I think what really made the film fail however,was Helena punching Indy out cold.Then the hard cut to 1969….yeah there was definitely something weird going in there and most likely part of the massively reshot ending.Indy is treated like an invalid and the reunion with Marion ( for the third time in as many films,they are worse than Ross and Rachel! ) was kinda depressing really as they have lost their son.

    Overall,a mild improvement on Crystal Skull but that’s not saying much.This is a movie that should never have been made and Ford should have quit after Last Crusade ( which was the perfect ending for the character).

    It’s safe to say that Disney wish they never made the film as it is now on track to be one of the biggest flops in their history.
  • Posts: 6,869
    Finally got to see it yesterday evening. Have to say I enjoyed most of it! Its title appearance was a nice nod to ROTLA, though, at parts of the opening action, I did think I was watching 'The Polar Express', in the end there were a lot of positives, it moves at a great pace, good action sequences ( the tuk tuk chase is terrific) strong characters,( great to see Sallah!) and Phoebe Waller Bridge was excellent. But the main positive was Ford himself, he's still got it, and makes Indiana Jones such a warm, compelling lead, which is why I got more enjoyment out of it than the latest M:I movie, Jones wipes the floor with the bland one dimensional Hunt! Ok, so the ending is daft, but they pull it off better than KOCS, which maybe isn't saying much! And a tip of Indys hat to James Mangold, brave to fill Spielbergs shoes, which he does very well!
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 1,394
    I think the film suffers especially now considering that the opening train fight is a murky cgi mess,whereas Mission Impossible manged to pull off a train fight (mostly) for real and in bright daytime.

    Sorry,Indy 5 has absolutely nothing on Mission 7.And if you think the Tuk,Tuk chase was good then you haven’t watched many action films this year.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    I’d argue the Tuk Tuk chase was good, but that’s as good as it gets for DOD in terms of action. Mangold just doesn’t have that undeniable Spielberg touch.

    I just went to look back at the train fight in THE WOLVERINE, also directed by Mangold… I actually think it’s better than his Indy train top fight.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,551
    The Tuk-Tuk chase is indeed as strong as any of the action in DOD gets for me, and even in that sequence, it's just "good." I don't think any moment in the film is really elevated to legendary greatness for me, and that's the problem.
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