Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK isa drastic improvement over TMWTGG, MR, OP & AVTAK and generally it's still considered a fan favorite. It should be one of the movies that Fleming inspired Bond fans go to first.

    Better than MWTGG, AVTAK and DAD? Probably! Better than MR and OP? Not so sure. Certainly MR is far more impressive in terms of filmmaking.

    MR has some good moments, but it borders on parody.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    Well, I think CR pretty much nails everything I want from Bond. Maybe a bit more espionage would have been nice (and more Bond theme, lol).

    Not in my book. I really don't like the Bond Begins and the loss of his snobbery that goes with that Nolan Light approach.

    I also think the film's final act is too bombastic. Wish it was more downplayed like the ending of the novel.
    I agree although I like the film a lot. I think it really comes alive during the casino scenes, which don't delve into backstory. The performances of Mads, Giannini, Eva and Craig really elevate that section of the film, and it's that part I most look forward to whenever I view it. There is an old school elegance there which captures the essence of Bond.

    This film is amazing. Totally mind-blowing. From the black and white pre-titles, to arguably the best titles sequence ever. From the African free-running chase to the beautiful interiors of London. From Judi Dench's harassed M, to the super cool Le Chiffre. From the stone-cold government killer, to the heart broken lover.

    Style and sophistication are in abundance.

    It's true to Fleming and I love it.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    suavejmf wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK isa drastic improvement over TMWTGG, MR, OP & AVTAK and generally it's still considered a fan favorite. It should be one of the movies that Fleming inspired Bond fans go to first.

    Better than MWTGG, AVTAK and DAD? Probably! Better than MR and OP? Not so sure. Certainly MR is far more impressive in terms of filmmaking.

    MR has some good moments, but it borders on parody.
    It's over-the-top, sure. But, it certainly isn't a parody. A parody makes fun of something. MR has humour that can make you laugh, but neither parodies, spoofs or makes fun of other films/stories/pop culture categories. Its production is very well delivered LTK wishes it had half the decency of it.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2017 Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK isa drastic improvement over TMWTGG, MR, OP & AVTAK and generally it's still considered a fan favorite. It should be one of the movies that Fleming inspired Bond fans go to first.

    Better than MWTGG, AVTAK and DAD? Probably! Better than MR and OP? Not so sure. Certainly MR is far more impressive in terms of filmmaking.

    MR has some good moments, but it borders on parody.
    It's over-the-top, sure. But, it certainly isn't a parody. A parody makes fun of something. MR has humour that can make you laugh, but neither parodies, spoofs or makes fun of other films/stories/pop culture categories. Its production is very well delivered LTK wishes it had half the decency of it.

    Mmm. Jaws in MR belongs in Austin Powers or CR 67, Bond dressed as a Cowboy was a nod to a westerns (including the music), lazer guns in space belong in Star wars and WTF is Dolly even doing in the film? It has good production values I agree, but it is far too comedic.....Fleming would not have approved (I would bet).
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    suavejmf wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK isa drastic improvement over TMWTGG, MR, OP & AVTAK and generally it's still considered a fan favorite. It should be one of the movies that Fleming inspired Bond fans go to first.

    Better than MWTGG, AVTAK and DAD? Probably! Better than MR and OP? Not so sure. Certainly MR is far more impressive in terms of filmmaking.

    MR has some good moments, but it borders on parody.
    It's over-the-top, sure. But, it certainly isn't a parody. A parody makes fun of something. MR has humour that can make you laugh, but neither parodies, spoofs or makes fun of other films/stories/pop culture categories. Its production is very well delivered LTK wishes it had half the decency of it.

    Mmm. Jaws in MR belongs in Austin Powers or CR 67, Bond dressed as a Cowboy was a nod to a westerns (including the music), lazer guns in space belong in Star wars. It has good production values I agree, but it is far too comedic.....Fleming would not have approved (I would bet).
    Fleming would not have approved Goldfinger with that mindset, either. But, he was very happy on the set as seen in the photos. I agree about Jaws and Dolly, and certainly could do without them since they serve no purpose to the story in the slightest. But, the laser guns, Bond dressed as a cowboy as a nod to westerns, these aren't comedic nor parodies. They're not parodying western films and making fun of them. There were plenty of space-oriented films in those years, and it was popular. Even the Reagan-commissioned "Star Wars" project was all over the topics, they did what they had to do with Moonraker and it paid off. Bond dressed as a cowboy is no different from Bond disguised as a Japanese fisherman, which I thought was cringeworthy. Is You Only Live Twice a parody as well? There's difference between extravaganza and parody.
  • Posts: 19,339
    It was the fact that the Magnificent Seven theme played alongside Cowboy Bond that does push it into parody for me tbh.
    It wasn't necessary.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 7,500
    The labelling of Dalton as a "second choice" Bond, really annoys me! The guy was contacted all the way back in 1968 as a possible replacement for Connery for gods sake!

    It is a reputation he didn't deserve, and it inflicted how he was perceived as Bond. He was known as a "replacement" for the people's Bond. Of course it was gonna be an uphill battle for him!

    By contrast Brosnan was declared the "ideal choice" and "the best Bond to date" even before people saw him in the part! I think preconceived reputation played a part in how their respective performances were judged at the time...
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Why would Fleming not have approved Goldfinger? It's fairly faithful to the novel and it's tone?

    Bond disguised as a Japanese fisherman makes sense as a cover in Japan and it's directly from the novel. Bond as a cowboy in MR is just a pointless pisstake and the chance to include a cheesy theme tune that has no place in the film other than to get a cheap laugh from a wider audience. MGW knew they had gone too far with MR, hence the far superior FYEO adaption that followed. Yes, MR made money but at the expense of quality.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Why would Fleming not have approved Goldfinger? It's fairly faithful to the novel and it's tone?

    Bond disguised as a Japanese fisherman makes sense as a cover in Japan and it's directly from the novel. Bond as a cowboy in MR is just a pointless pisstake and the chance to include a cheesy theme tune that has no place in the film other than to get a cheap laugh from a wider audience. MGW knew they had gone too far with MR, hence the far superior FYEO adaption that followed. Yes, MR made money but at the expense of quality.
    The gadget-laden DB5, for instance... by the 'Fleming' that you're describing, that is. The film shares the same story and some of the lines, but in tone is very different from the book.

    Just because Bond was disguised as a Japanese fisherman in the YOLT novel doesn't make it instantly less laughable. The novel didn't make it extravagant. Didn't capitalize on the brilliance of it, whereas the film did, and with all women in bikinis doing the work for it, just like Our Man Flint. The cowboy disguise was no different. MR was influenced by sci-fi, and that's all there is to it. Too much sci-fi would drag the espionage out of the whole thing and Bond isn't always about it, so it was sensible to tone it down and go for a different kind of (realistic, in other words) Bond film with FYEO.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    The DB3 in Goldfinger does have a homer, but I take your point. I don't think the tone is all that different compared with MR, that is nothing like the novel. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm just glad that FYEO followed.............
  • Posts: 1,162
    suavejmf wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    Well, I think CR pretty much nails everything I want from Bond. Maybe a bit more espionage would have been nice (and more Bond theme, lol).

    Not in my book. I really don't like the Bond Begins and the loss of his snobbery that goes with that Nolan Light approach.

    I also think the film's final act is too bombastic. Wish it was more downplayed like the ending of the novel.
    I agree although I like the film a lot. I think it really comes alive during the casino scenes, which don't delve into backstory. The performances of Mads, Giannini, Eva and Craig really elevate that section of the film, and it's that part I most look forward to whenever I view it. There is an old school elegance there which captures the essence of Bond.

    This film is amazing. Totally mind-blowing. From the black and white pre-titles, to arguably the best titles sequence ever. From the African free-running chase to the beautiful interiors of London. From Judi Dench's harassed M, to the super cool Le Chiffre. From the stone-cold government killer, to the heart broken lover.

    Style and sophistication are in abundance.

    It's true to Fleming and I love it.

    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The DB3 in Goldfinger does have a homer, but I take your point. I don't think the tone is all that different compared with MR, that is nothing like the novel. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm just glad that FYEO followed.............
    I agree. MR has little to do with the novel. There are some lifted scenes and elements, as well as the Drax character (minus the Nazi background), but that's about it. I still like it, though. I'm also glad that we got FYEO as it's my favourite Bond film.
  • Posts: 1,162
    barryt007 wrote: »
    It was the fact that the Magnificent Seven theme played alongside Cowboy Bond that does push it into parody for me tbh.
    It wasn't necessary.

    So how do you feel about the Lawrence from Arabia score in TSWLM?
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 11,189
    barryt007 wrote: »
    It was the fact that the Magnificent Seven theme played alongside Cowboy Bond that does push it into parody for me tbh.
    It wasn't necessary.

    So how do you feel about the Lawrence from Arabia score in TSWLM?

    I LIKE that. In fact when I first watched LOA and heard the theme it made me think of TSWLM.

    In MR it is a bit of a piss take rathther than a homage. Maybe it's something to do with the silly costume Roger is wearing.
  • Posts: 15,826
    Music cues from other iconic films in the Moore era never really bothered me. You certainly wouldn't get a joke like that now because films scores today don't tend to use catchy melodies. For instance placing a music cue from the new Jackie Chan thriller The Foreigner as a joke in B25 wouldn't remotely be funny because the audience wouldn't recognize the music.
    Interestingly what might have been amusing in 1979 wears off quick. When I see the Close Encounters bit in MR, it's no longer funny, it's just there.
    The Lawrence of Arabia bit in TSWLM, on the other hand still brings a smile to my face. Even though I don't find it funny anymore, the music is so iconic, it feels more like a tipping of the hat rather to the 1962 film rather than a comedic bit. Kind of makes me want to watch Lawrence after TSWLM ends.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 684
    I'm a defender of MR. Love it. But its sillier moments are its lone problem. I'm not entirely convinced they are meant to be read as we read them today (having almost forty years' worth of culture between us and the film definitely changes our perception) but there's no doubt they are meant as ironic on some level, whether that's as pastiche or parody. The problem is that irony has a bad taste. In the post-war years it started off as a neat tool to aid post-modernists in seeing the hypocrisy of the times, getting culture to come outside itself. But it got co-opted and diluted through advertising, debased through television, and stuck around too long — to the point where it became a shield. In Bond's case that means throwing in all these naff bits as a means of saying, "Yeah. Bond in space. Ha. We're not taking this seriously either. Look at this." It's a distancing mechanism.

    I think that's the problem. It's like, "Why aren't you embracing this? Is there a reason you aren't confident?" We pick this up on some level.

    One critic at the time called MR a 'minor masterpiece.' I don't agree with him. But if the film had been made (a) with a certain sincerity and to a lesser but possibly still necessary extent (b) with the main character's name changed (no preconceptions), I might, and I think a lot more people would, because it's a tremendous bit of filmmaking.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    It was the fact that the Magnificent Seven theme played alongside Cowboy Bond that does push it into parody for me tbh.
    It wasn't necessary.

    So how do you feel about the Lawrence from Arabia score in TSWLM?

    Exactly the same,but at least the film was in a more serious vein...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I enjoyed the Lawrence of Arabia inclusion in TSWLM and also the Magnificent Seven addition in MR. Both were suited to the respective scenes, moods and tones of the films in question.

    In fact, as a child I had no clue that the famous tune in TSWLM belonged to LoA or that the MR tune belonged to MS (I had not seen those films at that point). I just loved them because they sounded melodic and infinitely iconic. The earlier one was romantic, which was perfect for the setting in the desert with Anya. The second one was adventurous, which also perfectly fit the mood of the 'lighter' 1979 blockbuster.

    The one I didn't like was the Beach Boys in AVTAK. Why? Well because that stupid tune didn't fit the scene. Just because Bond is snowboarding doesn't mean one has to play California Girls. Barry blew it there imho.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,060
    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.
  • Posts: 1,162
    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.

    Would you care to lay out for me where he resembles Flemings Bond? Maybe when he shoots down an embassy or eats with open mouth? Or when he blows his cover and reveals his own name at the hotel reception?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,060
    Yup. Those examples. You nailed it.

    My controversial opinion: I like the latest Bond film. Always have. Usually if not always controversial.
  • I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.

    Would you care to lay out for me where he resembles Flemings Bond? Maybe when he shoots down an embassy or eats with open mouth? Or when he blows his cover and reveals his own name at the hotel reception?

    There are plenty of moments, especially since a lot of CR is straight from the book, but here's one that's always stuck out to me: the bit after he kills Obanno where he goes to wash the blood off and stares at himself in the mirror wondering what he's doing with his life. Really reminiscent of Bond reflecting on killing the mexican in GF.
  • Posts: 1,884
    jobo wrote: »
    The labelling of Dalton as a "second choice" Bond, really annoys me! The guy was contacted all the way back in 1968 as a possible replacement for Connery for gods sake!

    It is a reputation he didn't deserve, and it inflicted how he was perceived as Bond. He was known as a "replacement" for the people's Bond. Of course it was gonna be an uphill battle for him!

    By contrast Brosnan was declared the "ideal choice" and "the best Bond to date" even before people saw him in the part! I think preconceived reputation played a part in how their respective performances were judged at the time...
    I've never liked that either. And you've hit on part of why I've never fully embraced Brosnan as one of my favorite Bonds because he was that anointed chosen one and didn't bring anything above and beyond the other Bonds. That's not a slam, but he just didn't bring the freshness to the role I felt from Dalton and Craig. I wouldn't call hybrid Bond, which is how he was often described, as a compliment.

    I'm not a Brosnan slammer, I actually thought he projected a tougher image than I though possible, but he didn't break any new ground either.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 1,641
    They shouldve had Bowie doing Zorins voice on the AVTAK cassette story , at least then we wouldve had an idea how he wouldve been in the part :(
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,548
    controversial opinion: DC's performance had less bite once Mendes took the helm because, Mendes, as director, had more interest in attempting to create iconic imagery of Bond, than he was allowing Bond to be Bond; and therefore, Craig's performances were much more "staged" than before (the sway of his walk, the drawls of his words, even the posters of him in turtle-neck and gun holster; all of it was more pose than action...).

    Conversely, Campbell and Forster (with more flaws), let the Bond character, via Craig, breathe and be who he was. DC's first two films are absolutely more honest portrayals of the character through the actor, than the final two, which make DC's Bond more as an avatar...
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,492
    @peter, couldn't possibly agree more with that statement. Well said, mirrors my own sentiments.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm in agreement as well, but am not sure if this is only Mendes's fault or it is also Craig not being as intense an actor as he once was. Pacino and De Niro don't have the same intensity as in their youth and I remain to be convinced that Craig does either. B25 will be the test because as far as I know, he's not doing anything between now and then.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,548
    Yes @bondjames But look at De Niro in CASINO or GFellas, he was as intense then as he was in MEAN STREETS; talking about MEAN STREETS, has Harvey Keitel ever lost his intensity???

    Mendes took blood n teeth away from the character, and worked the imagery... Craig still shows snarls, but it’s neutered under this type of direction (and perhaps why the actor and director had a falling out on the last project?).

    Once again, all reports from Othello suggested his masculine and aggressive performance as being an elevation of Iago.

    He still has the bite.

    It takes the right director that has faith and let’s his leading man run....
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,548
    Yes @Creasy47 , very frustrating to watch the de-evolution of the character once Mendes took control!
  • Posts: 1,884
    Yeah, I agree with these takes too. There's an unevenness the last two films with the character that's undeniable and not as involving as CR and QoS. Still, Craig is always interesting to watch. I admit I'm quite nervous about his successor.
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