Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 7,500
    There are plenty of actors that have managed to keep their intensity with age, isn't it? Samuel Jackson comes to mind... :)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,791
    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.

    Would you care to lay out for me where he resembles Flemings Bond? Maybe when he shoots down an embassy or eats with open mouth? Or when he blows his cover and reveals his own name at the hotel reception?

    I tend to agree. He has Flemingesque moments for sure, but so did the others.

    The reason why he is less Fleming's Bond than the others is his total lack of manners and sophistication.

    This Bond is a PC, 21st Century Everyman character who appears to be spending more of his spare time at the gym than at the golf club.

    Not very Fleming, sorry folks.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    bondjames wrote: »
    B25 will be the test because as far as I know, he's not doing anything between now and then.
    I am keen to see the intensity and physicality again he showed in CR and QoS. I liked SF a lot but I am looking forward to see the CR/QoS Bond again. Would Connery have been able to pull another GF/TB-like performance in 1971 (if the script would allow it, which it didn't)? I am not sure. It will come down to one thing: If Craig really wants to deliver it once more this way.

    The negative press before CR for sure helped him to motivate himself and deliver the best performance he can (and he did - CR became an instant 007 classic). Not sure if this "one last time"-pressure helps him to push himself over that line once more. I felt (and it may be because of the tension on the set, the partially bad script etc.) he was not "fully there" in SP the way he was in his first 3 entries (say what you want about QoS but he never looked better and he gave us an awesome performance in every action- or non-action scene).

    I am sure he has one more "classic" in him and I hope he'll get a script that allows him to deliver it.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.

    Would you care to lay out for me where he resembles Flemings Bond? Maybe when he shoots down an embassy or eats with open mouth? Or when he blows his cover and reveals his own name at the hotel reception?

    I tend to agree. He has Flemingesque moments for sure, but so did the others.

    The reason why he is less Fleming's Bond than the others is his total lack of manners and sophistication.

    This Bond is a PC, 21st Century Everyman character who appears to be spending more of his spare time at the gym than at the golf club.

    Not very Fleming, sorry folks.

    I tend to agree, even though I would say that this has changed a little bit since Mendes. Not sure yet whether this has really worked but I consider Craig is now more recognisable as the cinematic Bond I used to know. Craig was probably more intense in his first two films and he certainly did a fine Job but I still have problems identifying him as the James Bond I used to know.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 11,189
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.

    Would you care to lay out for me where he resembles Flemings Bond? Maybe when he shoots down an embassy or eats with open mouth? Or when he blows his cover and reveals his own name at the hotel reception?

    I tend to agree. He has Flemingesque moments for sure, but so did the others.

    The reason why he is less Fleming's Bond than the others is his total lack of manners and sophistication.

    This Bond is a PC, 21st Century Everyman character who appears to be spending more of his spare time at the gym than at the golf club.

    Not very Fleming, sorry folks.

    To be fair, I can't really see Dalton's Bond enjoying a round of Golf in his spare time either. He'd get angry at every shot that went even a bit off target and would probably swing like how he yanked the leaver in TLD ;)

    Connery (obviously!) and Laz are the only two I could see strolling around the golf course.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    Well there are plenty of moments where Dalton shows his interest in such things. Think of how he enjoys classical music in TLD or how he uses his knowledge to bring the right products from Harrods to impress Koskov. He doesn't come across snobbish but sophisticated, something I also miss a bit in the Craig era.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert? Wouldn't you rather presume him going to a football or a boxing match?
  • Posts: 11,189
    I personally wouldn't call golf particularly sophisticated, but I suppose it does (or did) have a slightly more sophisticated air.

    Still, Dalton's Bond just seemed too intense to appreciate a sport like golf.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    You are right, a sophisticated person does not need to play golf. That is why Dalton need not play golf in order to be sophisticated. The thing is, Craig does not seem to be sophisticated in my eyes.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited October 2017 Posts: 6,791
    Well, golf is a very technical sport and to get the hang of it one requires a lot of skill. Furthermore, the whole atmosphere surrounding the sport is one of sophistication. At least it's like that over here.

    Nevertheless, it's not the only sophisticated aspect about Bond. Bond is a connaisseur of the finer things in life. Dalton showed that sophisticated side of Bond on several occasions. Craig's Bond seems to be more of a brute.

    To be fair, for all it's faults that aspect got slightly better in SF with his DB5 and the whiskey scene. Still, not enough for my tastes.
  • Posts: 11,189
    One aspect of Bond I think Craig REALLY sells is the notion of knocking back pills/alcohol to calm his pain and/or nerves.
  • Posts: 1,162
    peter wrote: »
    controversial opinion: DC's performance had less bite once Mendes took the helm because, Mendes, as director, had more interest in attempting to create iconic imagery of Bond, than he was allowing Bond to be Bond; and therefore, Craig's performances were much more "staged" than before (the sway of his walk, the drawls of his words, even the posters of him in turtle-neck and gun holster; all of it was more pose than action...).

    Conversely, Campbell and Forster (with more flaws), let the Bond character, via Craig, breathe and be who he was. DC's first two films are absolutely more honest portrayals of the character through the actor, than the final two, which make DC's Bond more as an avatar...

    Very true
  • Posts: 1,162
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,791
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    One aspect of Bond I think Craig REALLY sells is the notion of knocking back pills/alcohol to calm his pain and/or nerves.

    You are right, that's something he does very well.

    Alas, due to sponsorship deals with Heineken they force him to drink low quality beer, which makes this part of his Bond only half decent as well.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.

    Well Connery together with Young invented the cinematic Bond who was a sophisticated person and Flemming at the very beginning having his problems with Connery's performance as James Bond, later really appreciated this direction.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The DB3 in Goldfinger does have a homer, but I take your point. I don't think the tone is all that different compared with MR, that is nothing like the novel. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm just glad that FYEO followed.............
    I agree. MR has little to do with the novel. There are some lifted scenes and elements, as well as the Drax character (minus the Nazi background), but that's about it. I still like it, though. I'm also glad that we got FYEO as it's my favourite Bond film.

    Agreed. FYEO is a welcome classic.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    barryt007 wrote: »
    It was the fact that the Magnificent Seven theme played alongside Cowboy Bond that does push it into parody for me tbh.
    It wasn't necessary.

    +1.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    Well, I think CR pretty much nails everything I want from Bond. Maybe a bit more espionage would have been nice (and more Bond theme, lol).

    Not in my book. I really don't like the Bond Begins and the loss of his snobbery that goes with that Nolan Light approach.

    I also think the film's final act is too bombastic. Wish it was more downplayed like the ending of the novel.
    I agree although I like the film a lot. I think it really comes alive during the casino scenes, which don't delve into backstory. The performances of Mads, Giannini, Eva and Craig really elevate that section of the film, and it's that part I most look forward to whenever I view it. There is an old school elegance there which captures the essence of Bond.

    This film is amazing. Totally mind-blowing. From the black and white pre-titles, to arguably the best titles sequence ever. From the African free-running chase to the beautiful interiors of London. From Judi Dench's harassed M, to the super cool Le Chiffre. From the stone-cold government killer, to the heart broken lover.

    Style and sophistication are in abundance.

    It's true to Fleming and I love it.

    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.

    As for Craig, he may not be physically close to Fleming's Bond but I love his performance in Casino Royale. In the books, Bond was not as smooth with the ladies, he's reckless and as M described in Casino Royale, a blunt instrument.

    The amount of similarities between Casino Royale and its film adaptation are striking–especially considering that the film version was made 53 years after the book was published. Still, there are differences.

    In essentially rebooting the Bond films with Daniel Craig, producers were wise to go back to Fleming’s original novel–and lucky for them its title and plotline hadn’t already been cannibalized for previous movies. It was wise of them to recognize that Fleming’s narrative was perfectly suspenseful despite a lack of doomsday devices. Beyond updating some of the more dated nuances, there was little that needed to be changed.

    Yes, the movie bungles the twist about Vesper’s betrayal a little bit by making it so sudden that it doesn’t make sense anymore, but the rest of the film makes up for the book’s more nonsensical ploys to kill 007. I mean, two of Le Chiffre’s goons blow themselves up in an overly elaborate scheme to toss a bomb at 007 when literally all they had to do was shoot him. And is there really any way a henchman could have shot 007 in the base of his spine with a walking cane and not have anyone notice? So in the end the book improves the movie’s shortcoming, and vice versa.

    After the lighter, funnier 007s we got for so many years with Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan, it was nice to see him portrayed more in the manner Ian Fleming originally intended. But anyone who plunges into the book will be equally pleased by its perfectly pulp, almost noir style of storytelling.
  • Posts: 14,838
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert? Wouldn't you rather presume him going to a football or a boxing match?

    Actually I could. QOS notwithstanding I could certainly see him going to the opera. Don Giovanni especially.

    In TLD I was never convinced by Dalton's snobbery. I could have seen Moore in those scenes.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I think all the actors played the 'sophistication' very well thus far.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm always astonished how easy people use the phrase "true to Fleming".
    Some of you may suffer a stroke but actually there's no actor that was less true to Fleming than Craig.
    Well, that's not true, is it.

    Would you care to lay out for me where he resembles Flemings Bond? Maybe when he shoots down an embassy or eats with open mouth? Or when he blows his cover and reveals his own name at the hotel reception?

    I tend to agree. He has Flemingesque moments for sure, but so did the others.

    The reason why he is less Fleming's Bond than the others is his total lack of manners and sophistication.

    This Bond is a PC, 21st Century Everyman character who appears to be spending more of his spare time at the gym than at the golf club.

    Not very Fleming, sorry folks.

    I tend to agree, even though I would say that this has changed a little bit since Mendes. Not sure yet whether this has really worked but I consider Craig is now more recognisable as the cinematic Bond I used to know. Craig was probably more intense in his first two films and he certainly did a fine Job but I still have problems identifying him as the James Bond I used to know.
    I agree with this. He is best suited to a certain, limited kind of portrayal of the character. I am not convinced when he tries to go outside that realm. However, I agree with you that Mendes tried to get him there, but it isn't easy with him.
    SeanCraig wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    B25 will be the test because as far as I know, he's not doing anything between now and then.
    I am keen to see the intensity and physicality again he showed in CR and QoS. I liked SF a lot but I am looking forward to see the CR/QoS Bond again. Would Connery have been able to pull another GF/TB-like performance in 1971 (if the script would allow it, which it didn't)? I am not sure. It will come down to one thing: If Craig really wants to deliver it once more this way.

    The negative press before CR for sure helped him to motivate himself and deliver the best performance he can (and he did - CR became an instant 007 classic). Not sure if this "one last time"-pressure helps him to push himself over that line once more. I felt (and it may be because of the tension on the set, the partially bad script etc.) he was not "fully there" in SP the way he was in his first 3 entries (say what you want about QoS but he never looked better and he gave us an awesome performance in every action- or non-action scene).

    I am sure he has one more "classic" in him and I hope he'll get a script that allows him to deliver it.
    I'm sure he can give us something decent. For his sake, I hope he does, because I have not been impressed with anything he has delivered on the silver screen since SF (LL was mediocre at best). He seemed to be a much more formidable actor when younger, based on the evidence I have seen.
  • Posts: 1,162
    GBF wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.

    Well Connery together with Young invented the cinematic Bond who was a sophisticated person and Flemming at the very beginning having his problems with Connery's performance as James Bond, later really appreciated this direction.

    As I remember it took them three movies to start this trait. Goldfinger to me is the first in which he displays superior knowledge about things ( in this case the cognac, or rather the wine it was distilled from ). Correct me if I'm wrong.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.

    Well Connery together with Young invented the cinematic Bond who was a sophisticated person and Flemming at the very beginning having his problems with Connery's performance as James Bond, later really appreciated this direction.

    As I remember it took them three movies to start this trait. Goldfinger to me is the first in which he displays superior knowledge about things ( in this case the cognac, or rather the wine it was distilled from ). Correct me if I'm wrong.
    In FRWL he felt Nash was an imposter due to the red wine with fish. Not a big deal (most should know that), but I learned about that through this film as a child. I even remember asking my father about it.
  • Posts: 1,162
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.

    Well Connery together with Young invented the cinematic Bond who was a sophisticated person and Flemming at the very beginning having his problems with Connery's performance as James Bond, later really appreciated this direction.

    As I remember it took them three movies to start this trait. Goldfinger to me is the first in which he displays superior knowledge about things ( in this case the cognac, or rather the wine it was distilled from ). Correct me if I'm wrong.
    In FRWL he felt Nash was an imposter due to the red wine with fish. Not a big deal (most should know that), but I learned about that through this film as a child. I even remember asking my father about it.

    I knew, that would come up, but as you say it's actually very common knowledge. For adults at least. No need for children to know what wine to have with the fish, if you ask me. Of course, I tend to be a bit conservative
  • Posts: 1,162
    Btw - these days it's actually quite accepted to have red wine with your fish. Depends on the fish of course. Not to mention the wine!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Btw - these days it's actually quite accepted to have red wine with your fish. Depends on the fish of course. Not to mention the wine!
    Yes, I've noticed that and always think back to FRWL when I see it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.

    Well Connery together with Young invented the cinematic Bond who was a sophisticated person and Flemming at the very beginning having his problems with Connery's performance as James Bond, later really appreciated this direction.

    As I remember it took them three movies to start this trait. Goldfinger to me is the first in which he displays superior knowledge about things ( in this case the cognac, or rather the wine it was distilled from ). Correct me if I'm wrong.
    In FRWL he felt Nash was an imposter due to the red wine with fish. Not a big deal (most should know that), but I learned about that through this film as a child. I even remember asking my father about it.

    People always make out that the 'red wine with fish' line is an example of Bond's sophistication and superior knowledge of etiquette exposing the villain but never mention that Bond just raises an eyebrow at the time and it's not until he's on his knees with SPECTRE's top assassin pointing a gun at him that he realises its significant.

    'You may know the right wines but you're the one on your knees. How does it feel old man?'

    But for Grant's greed his ignorance of wine would have been irrelevant.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I mean, can you imagine Craig voluntarily going to a classical concert?

    True, but neither would Flemings Bond, who was far cry from the sophisticated know all 007 from the movies.

    Well Connery together with Young invented the cinematic Bond who was a sophisticated person and Flemming at the very beginning having his problems with Connery's performance as James Bond, later really appreciated this direction.

    As I remember it took them three movies to start this trait. Goldfinger to me is the first in which he displays superior knowledge about things ( in this case the cognac, or rather the wine it was distilled from ). Correct me if I'm wrong.
    In FRWL he felt Nash was an imposter due to the red wine with fish. Not a big deal (most should know that), but I learned about that through this film as a child. I even remember asking my father about it.

    People always make out that the 'red wine with fish' line is an example of Bond's sophistication and superior knowledge of etiquette exposing the villain but never mention that Bond just raises an eyebrow at the time and it's not until he's on his knees with SPECTRE's top assassin pointing a gun at him that he realises its significant.

    'You may know the right wines but you're the one on your knees. How does it feel old man?'

    But for Grant's greed his ignorance of wine would have been irrelevant.
    True. As I mentioned, I first encountered the line as a child and made note of it because I was intrigued about how Bond knew and what it meant. As I've gotten older I realize he was just digging at Grant while on his knees. Needling him.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    Still you can tell from the beginning that Connery's Bond was thought of being a sophisticated character. It is the way he talks, how he behaves. You feel that this man is at the right place in the casino or the "dinner with Dr. No scene". This man appreciates the right drink at the right time, has a certain kind of class and style.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    Still you can tell from the beginning that Connery's Bond was thought of being a sophisticated character. It is the way he talks, how he behaves. You feel that this man is at the right place in the casino or the "dinner with Dr. No scene". This man appreciates the right drink at the right time, has a certain kind of class and style.
    Certainly. What set him apart was a certain element of rough around the edges masculinity combined with that knowledge, style and elegance. It was there right from the opening casino scene in DN. A perfect cocktail balance which has not been replicated since, imho.
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