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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    suavejmf wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    Dalton just did some parts really well, like the intrigue. When he's just saved by Sanches, and plants that seed about Krest. His fighting though, not so much, and his emotions go overboard at some points.

    Maybe not too controversial, but Davi si one of the most underrated villains in the series.

    and on a side note:

    Agreed, I've been saying he's underrated for years. There's a real sense of menace to him and at the same time that sense of loyalty grounds him a bit more than the many megalomaniacs who are insane and therefore automatically qualify as evil with little else to intrigue about them.

    Davi and Dalton have are some of the best Bond-baddie chemistry in the series. It always annoys me when people dismiss the character as merely a drug dealer.

    Davi is one of the most underrated villains in the series. Agreed.

    Franz Sanchez is unquestionably the great forgotten villain of the franchise. He possesses all the vital characteristics: charm, intelligence, ruthlessness. Yes, he lacks a dumb name, weird deformity and ludicrous plan; such shedding of cliché should be celebrated, not held against him. A psychologically credible Bond villain is a rare and welcome beast. And Sanchez is a fascinating specimen. Just a drug dealer? No more than Scaramanga is ‘just a hitman’ or Goldfinger ‘just a bank robber’. And unlike those gentlemen’s slightly limp exits, the exquisite Robert Davi dies hard.

    Davi is one of the best things in LTK.

    He deserved a better film than the one he got.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    In his second and final outing Dalton delivered his vision of Bond, perfectly. Perhaps you buy into this vision, perhaps you don’t. But LTK is unflinchingly Dalton: a Bond only he could have made. Many fans bemoan the shortness of Tim’s tenure – yet Dalton doesn’t need to be mourned. He made his Bond. Few have made a better one......Fleming's Bind incarnate.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,504
    Plus LTK has one of the most intriguing plots in the series. People dismiss it as a simple revenge story, but it is so much more than that. For once Bond is actually demonstrating his skills and wits as a proper spy, infiltrating and bringing down a powerfull organisation from within.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    LTK has an excellent story with great character work from the lead protagonist and antagonist. If only it had a little more class, style, better supporting actors (particularly in Florida) and better female leads it would be a far more appreciated effort. The casino scene is poorly done imho (Dalton's hair, the general ambience etc.). A more Bond like score would have helped too (although I like Kamen's effort).
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    "Things were about to get naaaaaaaaaaaaaaasty "...
    "Now why don't you wait until you're aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasked"....
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited October 2017 Posts: 3,985
    suavejmf wrote: »
    In his second and final outing Dalton delivered his vision of Bond, perfectly. Perhaps you buy into this vision, perhaps you don’t. But LTK is unflinchingly Dalton: a Bond only he could have made. Many fans bemoan the shortness of Tim’s tenure – yet Dalton doesn’t need to be mourned. He made his Bond. Few have made a better one......Fleming's Bind incarnate.

    He certainly was Fleming's Bond in TLD, one of my favourite Bond films.

    In LTK his assured, natural and confident performance from TLD film went out the window. Replaced by overacting in too many scenes. A classic case of trying too hard and therefore you can 'see' the acting.

    Plus some of the dialogue was abysmal which didn't help matters.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    bondjames wrote: »
    LTK has an excellent story with great character work from the lead protagonist and antagonist. If only it had a little more class, style, better supporting actors (particularly in Florida) and better female leads it would be a far more appreciated effort. The casino scene is poorly done imho (Dalton's hair, the general ambience etc.). A more Bond like score would have helped too (although I like Kamen's effort).

    One of my biggest disappointments of the Bond series.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited October 2017 Posts: 15,423
    Yeah, what was wrong with the TLD hairdo, anyway? It's one of the best Bond hairdos in the series.

    28eaa-the2bliving2bdaylights.jpg

    This one has a touch of class all over it. Why divert away? LTK really did a bad job with Bond's sense of fashion overall.
  • jobojobo
    edited October 2017 Posts: 7,504
    bondjames wrote: »
    LTK has an excellent story with great character work from the lead protagonist and antagonist. If only it had a little more class, style, better supporting actors (particularly in Florida) and better female leads it would be a far more appreciated effort. The casino scene is poorly done imho (Dalton's hair, the general ambience etc.). A more Bond like score would have helped too (although I like Kamen's effort).


    LTK definitely has it's flaws (and so do many other Bond films, also even those that are regarded as "perfect"...). It is just a shame that its many strengths are so easily overlooked by fans and critics alike. Reputation is everything.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    It is mind-boggling I must admit.
    I mean,i prefer LTK over TLD ,but that mainly is due to Sanchez and his team,but I prefer Dalton himself in TLD.

    Mad really.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    @barryt007, you’re being unfair. Kara Milovy is the best thing in TLD. ;)
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    @barryt007, you’re being unfair. Kara Milovy is the best thing in TLD. ;)

    Ow...that was a kick in the knackers,you cruel cruel boy !!! ;)

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited October 2017 Posts: 3,985
    barryt007 wrote: »
    It is mind-boggling I must admit.
    I mean,i prefer LTK over TLD ,but that mainly is due to Sanchez and his team,but I prefer Dalton himself in TLD.

    Mad really.

    As you know I'm no fan of the film but Carey Lowell is one of my favourite Bond girls! Weird!

    I think she's rather underrated.

    LTK should have been a fantastic continuation of all the good work in TLD and remains the biggest missed opportunity of the series.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    @barryt007, you’re being unfair. Kara Milovy is the best thing in TLD. ;)

    Ow...that was a kick in the knackers,you cruel cruel boy !!! ;)
    ”James, we did it! We’rrrre frrreee!”

    =))
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    @barryt007, you’re being unfair. Kara Milovy is the best thing in TLD. ;)

    Ow...that was a kick in the knackers,you cruel cruel boy !!! ;)
    ”James, we did it! We’rrrre frrreee!”

    =))

    tmmelting-mellllltiiiing-mennesdconm-15217155.png

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I'm not a great fan of any of Dalton's Bond girls really.

    Kara is ok but quite soppy and "gooey" as I've said before a couple of times.

    Lupe is a good character played by a bad actress and Pam is a trashy character played by a stunning but fairly low-rent actress too.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    LTK definitely had budget problems. I mean, even the camera they used to film is something you’d see in a B-Movie or a TV movie, it’s appalling.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,585
    He looks terrific in TLD
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    peter wrote: »
    He looks terrific in TLD
    Indubitably.
  • MilovyMilovy
    edited October 2017 Posts: 676
    I've always thought if you mixed the best of TLD and LTK, you'd have a perfect Bond film. TLD captures the elegant side of Bond and mixes espionage and adventure, but doesn't have great villains. LTK isn't very classy, but it captures the violent and dangerous side of Bond and has great villains. As it is, neither are perfect, but they both do some things very, very well.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,799
    Milovy wrote: »
    I've always thought if you mixed the best of TLD and LTK, you'd have a perfect Bond film. TLD captures the elegant side of Bond and mixes espionage and adventure, but doesn't have great villains. LTK isn't very classy, but it captures the violent and dangerous side of Bond and has great villains. As it is, neither are perfect, but they both do some things very, very well.

    The same goes for the entire Craig era, yet they are hailed as the best thing since Sean.

    In comparison, I prefer Tim's films by far.
  • MilovyMilovy
    Posts: 676
    Well, I think CR pretty much nails everything I want from Bond. Maybe a bit more espionage would have been nice (and more Bond theme, lol).
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    CR started off the era greatly, but everything went downhill afterwards. Genuine originality was sacked in the last three films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    I've always thought if you mixed the best of TLD and LTK, you'd have a perfect Bond film. TLD captures the elegant side of Bond and mixes espionage and adventure, but doesn't have great villains. LTK isn't very classy, but it captures the violent and dangerous side of Bond and has great villains. As it is, neither are perfect, but they both do some things very, very well.

    The same goes for the entire Craig era, yet they are hailed as the best thing since Sean.

    In comparison, I prefer Tim's films by far.
    I can't say that I prefer them, but I certainly far prefer certain aspects of them, and increasingly so as the current era lingers on.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    jobo wrote: »
    Plus LTK has one of the most intriguing plots in the series. People dismiss it as a simple revenge story, but it is so much more than that. For once Bond is actually demonstrating his skills and wits as a proper spy, infiltrating and bringing down a powerfull organisation from within.

    When anyone makes a list of the best James Bond movies, you can be guaranteed of two things: One, Die Another Day will not be on that list (that damn invisible car! the CGI wave surfing! Madonna!). And two, Goldfinger, Casino Royale, and From Russia with Lovewill all be somewhere on almost every list.

    But License to Kill is one of the best Bonds.

    It's also a terrific mix of the old and the new. The violence and action are a clear nod to modern times, but there's a nice throwback feel to the movie, too. There's talk of the time Bond was married years earlier (in On Her Majesty's Secret Service) and David Hedison makes a return as Felix Leiter, which makes for nice continuity with the earlier adventure Live and Let Die (even if the actor who plays Bond has changed). License to Kill has a good soundtrack (by Michael Kamen), exotic locations, two nice-looking leading ladies (Carey Lowell and Talisa Soto), an evil villain (Robert Davi) who either cuts out the hearts of his enemies or feeds them to sharks, quips that make you laugh and/or groan, explosions, and a short-haired Benicio del Toro (in only his second film role) as a crazy, slimy henchman. What else could you want in a Bond movie?

    Oh, you want Wayne Newton as a scam artist television preacher? That's here, too!

    While the film was a big hit in the UK, it was the least financially successful Bond film in the U.S. Many people cited the violence (some scenes were cut to get a PG rating), some people cited Dalton, some cited the competition in theaters that summer, which included Batman. I think these were all factors. Maybe some people didn't latch on to the film because, while the earlier Bonds were light, suave affairs with action, License to Kill is an action movie, with some light, suave moments. But it's actually the Bond movie that people are starting to reconsider now.

    A couple months later, Pierce Brosnan (who actually got the role of Bond before Dalton but was contractually bound to continue Remington Steele) got the role. Brosnan doesn't think he did a great job as 007, but his first film, 1995's GoldenEye, is quite good. It's stylish and rather low-key, a good balance between action and humor. It's almost a '60s throwback in its feel and look. Of course, the movies started to get more and more ridiculous and predictable after that (again, that damn invisible car!), and we were all happy to see Daniel Craig take over the franchise as a more serious, tougher, darker Fleming inspired Bond.

    It's funny, but that's exactly what they said when Dalton took over as Bond. He was more serious, darker and Fleming. Some critics said this was a bad thing, but now Craig gets kudos for it (and well he should). It's too bad Dalton only made two Bond movies, but License to Kill was a damn good way to end his run.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I'm trying to figure out why LTK has gone down in my estimations in recent years and I think it comes down to the fact that I don't like the made-for-tv style set up. It feels cheap and not always that convincing. In fact, this is a better more memorable hospital scene and its origins lie in a tv series.


  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    LTK isa drastic improvement over TMWTGG, MR, OP & AVTAK and generally it's still considered a fan favorite. It should be one of the movies that Fleming inspired Bond fans go to first.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,799
    Milovy wrote: »
    Well, I think CR pretty much nails everything I want from Bond. Maybe a bit more espionage would have been nice (and more Bond theme, lol).

    Not in my book. I really don't like the Bond Begins and the loss of his snobbery that goes with that Nolan Light approach.

    I also think the film's final act is too bombastic. Wish it was more downplayed like the ending of the novel.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2017 Posts: 11,189
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK isa drastic improvement over TMWTGG, MR, OP & AVTAK and generally it's still considered a fan favorite. It should be one of the movies that Fleming inspired Bond fans go to first.

    Better than MWTGG, AVTAK and DAD? Probably! Better than MR and OP? Not so sure. Certainly MR is far more impressive in terms of filmmaking.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Milovy wrote: »
    Well, I think CR pretty much nails everything I want from Bond. Maybe a bit more espionage would have been nice (and more Bond theme, lol).

    Not in my book. I really don't like the Bond Begins and the loss of his snobbery that goes with that Nolan Light approach.

    I also think the film's final act is too bombastic. Wish it was more downplayed like the ending of the novel.
    I agree although I like the film a lot. I think it really comes alive during the casino scenes, which don't delve into backstory. The performances of Mads, Giannini, Eva and Craig really elevate that section of the film, and it's that part I most look forward to whenever I view it. There is an old school elegance there which captures the essence of Bond.
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