Die Another Day vs Spectre.

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  • Posts: 3,674
    matt_u wrote: »
    When we're led to believe Spectre is built entirely out of hate for daddy because he showed some attention to a pre-teen orphan "over the course of two winters", and that the said plot twist is simply to undermine and ruin the life of that person you hated from the get-go so you can rub it in his face and feel big about it, that alone is worth triple the facepalm.

    It's true that Bond is indirectly responsible for the path Blofeld took, but this is just a fundamental topos that belongs to so many other stories. The bad guy who becomes bad because of the good guy. That's what "nemesis" means: "anyone or anything which seems to be the inevitable cause of someone's downfall". Nothing strange, nothing new. Same about patricide.

    Having said that I'd like to point out that Blofeld NEVER became the head of a terrorist organization in order to undermine Bond, since Blofeld never cared about Bond for 30 years, at least until Bond became a double 0 and started to INTERFERE with Blofeld's dirty affairs. It was Bond that (unknowingly) came back to Blofeld's life, not vice versa. That's the point. The fact that Bond started to interfere with Blofeld's plans back in CR - something that lead the head of SPECTRE to undermine Bond's closer interests since all the previous villains were never able to kill him - doesn't mean the whole movie is based upon this hate you're talking about. The whole movie is built upon SPECTRE's plan to control the whole world, while the personal connection between the two is just the result of a previous brief relationship. Something clearly established after almost 2 hours of globetrotting. Blofeld's actions towards Bonds are just the result of Bond's work against his interests, not vice versa.
    Blofeld taking that path just because Hannes Oberhauser showed some care towards a young Bond in a short period of time is nothing short of laughable. The definition of nemesis that being born out of rivalry could have been done in a manner that's believable. Not because he hated Bond or how his father treated the latter in a short period of time so his jealousy leads to his super-villainy. That's outrageous.

    A believable blast from the past story angle is done perfectly in GoldenEye. But, all that came after it, from the flimsy Paris Carver up to the present Franz Oberhauser have been godawfully executed. I can't fathom the idea of a "nemesis" birthing out of childhood rivalry being anything that's slightly convincing. A twelve year old's idea of creating an epic where the protagonist is the center of the universe and has to thwart enemies that take the life form of a past figure Bond had apparently done wrong. Up next: A school bully Bond twisted the arm of resulted in expelling the both of them from Eton, and now that school bully becomes a suppervillain to take revenge from Bond, joining villains like Silva and Franz Oberhauser's rogue gallery. What is sold as coincidental couldn't be any more the unconvincing. If only it was compelling to begin with. It's not a small world.

    While a lot of people here are against the idea of the retcon that tied all of the previous films in one entry, I wasn't against it at all. But, I sure as hell despise the execution that went awry. Like you said, "nothing new". And so it was. Nothing new. Just a pale adoption of the cliches today's stories in various formats are built around. Nothing worth one's while that warrants the mindblowing aim it took but misfired.
    At least spectre is a good one time watch cinema action film. DAD isn’t even that.
    I yawned throughout the action sequences the last time I watched Spectre, looking at my watch, waiting for the film to be over. With Die Another Day, as ridiculous as it is, I never get bored with.
    vzok wrote: »
    I think DAD started out with the aim of being serious and a hard hitter, didn’t it? I remember Brosnan speaking early on in filming about how it would be a tough one. Somewhere after that it seemed to be overtaken by fantasy and comedy.
    Well, if Die Another Day is a comedy, I can't imagine what Airplane! and The Naked Gun are.

    Shirley you can.
  • Posts: 7,201
    I still found this Blofeld version the weakest one so far Christoph Waltz did phone in his acting, he did the same thing as QT let him do with the difference that QT can actually write dialogue for his actors.
    Silva suffered the same fate the actor playing him does do the same bad guy routine time after time.
    At least in CR and QoB both baddies were more believeable even if one was a real dick but it did add to the part, he was an original version. To bad they went for big names who in essence did not bring anything new to the table.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited February 8 Posts: 15,423
    matt_u wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    When we're led to believe Spectre is built entirely out of hate for daddy because he showed some attention to a pre-teen orphan "over the course of two winters", and that the said plot twist is simply to undermine and ruin the life of that person you hated from the get-go so you can rub it in his face and feel big about it, that alone is worth triple the facepalm.

    It's true that Bond is indirectly responsible for the path Blofeld took, but this is just a fundamental topos that belongs to so many other stories. The bad guy who becomes bad because of the good guy. That's what "nemesis" means: "anyone or anything which seems to be the inevitable cause of someone's downfall". Nothing strange, nothing new. Same about patricide.

    Having said that I'd like to point out that Blofeld NEVER became the head of a terrorist organization in order to undermine Bond, since Blofeld never cared about Bond for 30 years, at least until Bond became a double 0 and started to INTERFERE with Blofeld's dirty affairs. It was Bond that (unknowingly) came back to Blofeld's life, not vice versa. That's the point. The fact that Bond started to interfere with Blofeld's plans back in CR - something that lead the head of SPECTRE to undermine Bond's closer interests since all the previous villains were never able to kill him - doesn't mean the whole movie is based upon this hate you're talking about. The whole movie is built upon SPECTRE's plan to control the whole world, while the personal connection between the two is just the result of a previous brief relationship. Something clearly established after almost 2 hours of globetrotting. Blofeld's actions towards Bonds are just the result of Bond's work against his interests, not vice versa.
    Blofeld taking that path just because Hannes Oberhauser showed some care towards a young Bond in a short period of time is nothing short of laughable. The definition of nemesis that being born out of rivalry could have been done in a manner that's believable. Not because he hated Bond or how his father treated the latter in a short period of time so his jealousy leads to his super-villainy. That's outrageous.

    A believable blast from the past story angle is done perfectly in GoldenEye. But, all that came after it, from the flimsy Paris Carver up to the present Franz Oberhauser have been godawfully executed. I can't fathom the idea of a "nemesis" birthing out of childhood rivalry being anything that's slightly convincing. A twelve year old's idea of creating an epic where the protagonist is the center of the universe and has to thwart enemies that take the life form of a past figure Bond had apparently done wrong. Up next: A school bully Bond twisted the arm of resulted in expelling the both of them from Eton, and now that school bully becomes a suppervillain to take revenge from Bond, joining villains like Silva and Franz Oberhauser's rogue gallery. What is sold as coincidental couldn't be any more the unconvincing. If only it was compelling to begin with. It's not a small world.

    1. It's not laughable. We're not dealing with a sane person. Blofeld is clearly a psychopath with a twisted mind, as the movie clearly established, and since we're talking about fan fiction the fact that he killed his father because he felt betrayed by him out of envy it's not that laughable. People kills for less even in the real world.

    2. Having said that it's clear that you're blowing the "foster brother" angle/nemesis out of proportion. As I said before Blofeld never searched for Bond out of vengeance, so it's pretty obvious he didn't care about him at least until Bond started to interfere with his business. That's the point. And that's why the "foster brother" angle is just a little part of all the equation. The primary reason Blofeld went against Bond was because Bond jeopardized all his plans, not because he just hated him, as established in the movie. It's so clear.
    You're using the term "established" very liberally here. It'd be established if it was spilled out in a detail that strikes the bolt to what would be coherently sensible. In Franz Oberhauser's case, there was none of that. His character was half-baked. Every single time he was given the opportunity to thrive in terms of character development, it was cut short. Only petty people kill for less and Blofeld isn't supposed to be that. I think you said it yourself what Spectre is: Fan fiction. A very bad one at that. The very same reason I find Anthony Horowitz's novel, Forever and A Day to be ridiculously weak.

    That said, I don't hate Spectre. Never have. I find it as weak as most of the Bond films in the early seventies and the whole of eighties, but for different reasons. In Spectre's case, it's the plot that doesn't hold itself together. Not by a long mile.

    The foster brother angle is enough to undermine what Blofeld is about. We're talking the standards of Dr. Evil and Austin Powers here. His envious hatred of Bond that led him to that path is very obvious right to the face of the viewer. All that talk about cuckoo's nest whatsoever is enough of an establishment to point out the fact that his jealousy gave birth to his antagonistic behaviour and inauguration to what he has become. Unfortunately, it doesn't hold water.

    As for Bond interfering with his plans, no arguments from me. That's what made Bond and Blofeld sworn enemies in the first place, and the hatred between them grew without either of them knowing each other prior to their first meeting as adult enemies on the opposite sides of the fence. Rarely a law enforcement officer had a connection with an underworld leader that motivated them both to become the opposite of one another and sanction battles. That's built through their professional careers. That's real-life. The other way around is what you'd see in the likes of High School Musical and whatnot.
    vzok wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    When we're led to believe Spectre is built entirely out of hate for daddy because he showed some attention to a pre-teen orphan "over the course of two winters", and that the said plot twist is simply to undermine and ruin the life of that person you hated from the get-go so you can rub it in his face and feel big about it, that alone is worth triple the facepalm.

    It's true that Bond is indirectly responsible for the path Blofeld took, but this is just a fundamental topos that belongs to so many other stories. The bad guy who becomes bad because of the good guy. That's what "nemesis" means: "anyone or anything which seems to be the inevitable cause of someone's downfall". Nothing strange, nothing new. Same about patricide.

    Having said that I'd like to point out that Blofeld NEVER became the head of a terrorist organization in order to undermine Bond, since Blofeld never cared about Bond for 30 years, at least until Bond became a double 0 and started to INTERFERE with Blofeld's dirty affairs. It was Bond that (unknowingly) came back to Blofeld's life, not vice versa. That's the point. The fact that Bond started to interfere with Blofeld's plans back in CR - something that lead the head of SPECTRE to undermine Bond's closer interests since all the previous villains were never able to kill him - doesn't mean the whole movie is based upon this hate you're talking about. The whole movie is built upon SPECTRE's plan to control the whole world, while the personal connection between the two is just the result of a previous brief relationship. Something clearly established after almost 2 hours of globetrotting. Blofeld's actions towards Bonds are just the result of Bond's work against his interests, not vice versa.
    Blofeld taking that path just because Hannes Oberhauser showed some care towards a young Bond in a short period of time is nothing short of laughable. The definition of nemesis that being born out of rivalry could have been done in a manner that's believable. Not because he hated Bond or how his father treated the latter in a short period of time so his jealousy leads to his super-villainy. That's outrageous.

    A believable blast from the past story angle is done perfectly in GoldenEye. But, all that came after it, from the flimsy Paris Carver up to the present Franz Oberhauser have been godawfully executed. I can't fathom the idea of a "nemesis" birthing out of childhood rivalry being anything that's slightly convincing. A twelve year old's idea of creating an epic where the protagonist is the center of the universe and has to thwart enemies that take the life form of a past figure Bond had apparently done wrong. Up next: A school bully Bond twisted the arm of resulted in expelling the both of them from Eton, and now that school bully becomes a suppervillain to take revenge from Bond, joining villains like Silva and Franz Oberhauser's rogue gallery. What is sold as coincidental couldn't be any more the unconvincing. If only it was compelling to begin with. It's not a small world.

    While a lot of people here are against the idea of the retcon that tied all of the previous films in one entry, I wasn't against it at all. But, I sure as hell despise the execution that went awry. Like you said, "nothing new". And so it was. Nothing new. Just a pale adoption of the cliches today's stories in various formats are built around. Nothing worth one's while that warrants the mindblowing aim it took but misfired.
    At least spectre is a good one time watch cinema action film. DAD isn’t even that.
    I yawned throughout the action sequences the last time I watched Spectre, looking at my watch, waiting for the film to be over. With Die Another Day, as ridiculous as it is, I never get bored with.
    vzok wrote: »
    I think DAD started out with the aim of being serious and a hard hitter, didn’t it? I remember Brosnan speaking early on in filming about how it would be a tough one. Somewhere after that it seemed to be overtaken by fantasy and comedy.
    Well, if Die Another Day is a comedy, I can't imagine what Airplane! and The Naked Gun are.

    Shirley you can.
    Now now. Don't call me Shirley. I'm no Bassey. :D
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 1,412
    I'm using that term properly and because of that I don't have anything to add.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    If it were used properly, it'd have filled in the blanks.

    As it goes, it all boils down to personal tastes. You appreciate that aspect, I don't. I'm very fine with it. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 2,677
    IMO both movies drag. Whenever I watch 'em I stop caring about both as they reach the climax on the Antonov and in London.

    The Antonov finale has great music and I especially love Graves' demise (Time to face gravity!) but to be honest I'd be happier had the movie climax taken place at the Ice Palace and had it been shorter.

    I'm afraid there's nothing salvageable about SPECTRE's London chase. The music is just a rehash of The Moors, Blofeld's photo tunnel makes no sense. Though I love Blofeld's line "Look around you, James. This is what's left of your world. Everything you stood for, everything you believed in, a ruin."

    Overall SPECTRE is the one I enjoy the most, but there are many things I'd change about both anyway.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited February 8 Posts: 1,412
    As it goes, it all boils down to personal tastes. You appreciate that aspect, I don't. I'm very fine with it. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

    At least here we can all agree. :)

    I just want to add that I clearly don't think SP is perfect and it's pretty evident that Blofeld ended up half baked, as u like to say. But I always loved the overall product. I think I saw it 20 times, something like that.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited February 8 Posts: 15,423
    matt_u wrote: »
    As it goes, it all boils down to personal tastes. You appreciate that aspect, I don't. I'm very fine with it. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

    At least here we can all agree. :)

    I just want to add that I clearly don't think SP is perfect and it's pretty evident that Blofeld ended up half baked, as u like to say. But I always loved the overall product. I think I saw it 20 times, something like that.
    Hey, no harm done. My apologies if I came off as antagonistic.

    Spectre isn't perfect, but there are a lot of scenes that are quite Bondian. Despite what the majority of fans think of the pre-title sequence, I for one find it compelling enough to say it's one of the best in the series. Especially the bit where Bond exits the balcony and walks forward with the tracking shot as the Bond Theme plays. I wish we could get more of that in the future.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 1,412
    matt_u wrote: »
    As it goes, it all boils down to personal tastes. You appreciate that aspect, I don't. I'm very fine with it. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

    At least here we can all agree. :)

    I just want to add that I clearly don't think SP is perfect and it's pretty evident that Blofeld ended up half baked, as u like to say. But I always loved the overall product. I think I saw it 20 times, something like that.
    Hey, no harm done. My apologies if I came off as antagonistic.

    Spectre isn't perfect, but there are a lot of scenes that are quite Bondian. Despite what the majority of fans think of the pre-title sequence, I for one find it compelling enough to say it's one of the best in the series. Especially the bit where Bond exits the balcony and walks forward with the tracking shot as the Bond Theme plays. I wish we could get more of that in the future.

    That was a really good sequence, yes. I also love the sequences in the train + the arrival at Blofeld's liar. Very Bondian. In that train I felt like being in a time machine. I quite liked also Newman's score in that scenes.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    matt_u wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    As it goes, it all boils down to personal tastes. You appreciate that aspect, I don't. I'm very fine with it. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

    At least here we can all agree. :)

    I just want to add that I clearly don't think SP is perfect and it's pretty evident that Blofeld ended up half baked, as u like to say. But I always loved the overall product. I think I saw it 20 times, something like that.
    Hey, no harm done. My apologies if I came off as antagonistic.

    Spectre isn't perfect, but there are a lot of scenes that are quite Bondian. Despite what the majority of fans think of the pre-title sequence, I for one find it compelling enough to say it's one of the best in the series. Especially the bit where Bond exits the balcony and walks forward with the tracking shot as the Bond Theme plays. I wish we could get more of that in the future.

    That was a really good sequence, yes. I also love the sequences in the train + the arrival at Blofeld's liar. Very Bondian. In that train I felt like being in a time machine. I quite liked also Newman's score in that scenes.
    Agreed. Loved the Casablanca vibes it left. Newman's character themes (for Lucia and Madeleine) were great pieces. The front garden in Blofeld's lair was a great production design, something you'd see in an old Bond film. Wish there was more of that, though. The Blofeld lair needed a lot more to be explored.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    edited February 8 Posts: 1,454
    I've always enjoyed the hell out of DAD, apart from some of the terrible CGI and dialogue. It knows what it is and fully embraces the sillier side of Bond films. Don't take it too seriously.

    I enjoyed SP quite a bit the first couple times I watched it and had it in the middle of my ranking. Unfortunately, apart from the Rome and Morocco scenes, it bores the mod edit out of me now. It's the only film in the series that I wouldn't mind never watching again.
  • 00Agent00Agent Has no problem with female authority.
    edited February 8 Posts: 4,625
    I actually feel much the same way about the two.
    They both start out amazingly, in the first third i would almost say they are my favorite movie of their respective lead actors. And then around the halfway point everything starts going downhill, and the last third of each movie is a complete mess.

    Though If i had to, i would pick DAD for Brosnans best or second best performance in it.
  • Posts: 3,674
    Walecs wrote: »
    IMO both movies drag. Whenever I watch 'em I stop caring about both as they reach the climax on the Antonov and in London.

    The Antonov finale has great music and I especially love Graves' demise (Time to face gravity!) but to be honest I'd be happier had the movie climax taken place at the Ice Palace and had it been shorter.

    I'm afraid there's nothing salvageable about SPECTRE's London chase. The music is just a rehash of The Moors, Blofeld's photo tunnel makes no sense. Though I love Blofeld's line "Look around you, James. This is what's left of your world. Everything you stood for, everything you believed in, a ruin."

    Overall SPECTRE is the one I enjoy the most, but there are many things I'd change about both anyway.

    It's quite funny that they both make the same mistake of moving away from a perfectly good location for a finale to a much weaker one. I don't think it helps Spectre that everything is so dark, everyone is wearing black. Whereas the crater was a quite interesting looking design.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    Posts: 27,211
    In the end, despite it's flaws and interminable third act, DAD is still a Hell of a lot of fun for me; many great moments in the first half. SP still just leaves me bored and cold; and all of the reasoning and arguing can't change that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 17,223
    DAD is loud and chaotic for me, with little pauses and moments to breathe.

    SP is much more my thing, with many of its scenes taking place in remote, somewhat desolate areas, with an atmospheric score full of underrated, charming moments and with characters who prefer an introverted lifestyle to socially overstuffed events. I can see why the film is perceived as cold and even dull. Objectively speaking, I won't even disagree. But I myself am always touched by the film. It's still my second favourite Craig Bond film, second only to CR.
  • Posts: 1,374
    PTS: SP
    Title Track: SP
    Title Credits: dont' care
    Main Villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP hands down
    Overall Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: SP
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP, just compare the 2 car chases
    Humor: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP hands down
    Glamour: SP
    BOND PERFORMANCE: SP

    SP 17
    Don't care 1
    DAD 0
  • Posts: 19,339
    @JohnBarryFan are you saying the SP car chase is better than the DAD chase on the ice ?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing South Florida
    Posts: 3,237
    If I had to choose one to take on a desert island, id choose SP. However, its a very bipolar film for me as my like and dislike changes with every viewing. The first 2/3 of DAD is enjoyable for me. Right up until the ice Palace is melted. Both films in my opinion could have been better with some better writing and final third acts. DAD should have never had the plane finale, yet had it set on the Korean Airbase as early ideas were presented. SP should have kept the whole thing in the lair in Morocco ala DN. Instead of the boring lair room with all of the screens, a meal and interrogation would have been better, then possibly the torture and escape. Rescue Madeline etc.

    Both films have greatness in them, but Tamahori was never right and ruined alot of areas with his changes and Mendes shot his load with SF and never should have come back.
  • Posts: 189
    DAD's first act is salvageable and then it becomes progressively more brutal from the introduction of The Clash onwards, until we reach the embarrassing nadir of Emperor Robocop Maggie Smith Jr doing his thing.

    SP is anaemic and also a chore and long and makes basic errors, but like QoS its thematic ideas sustain a heartbeat of interest that can string you along. It is also a largely professional presentation that isn't quite an embarrassment to be in the same room as. I can't say that for DAD.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    edited February 13 Posts: 27,211
    I have a blast with the bulk of DAD. When it falls, it falls hard, but in that first hour and 15 minutes, aside from Jinx and Madonna and some cringeworthy dialogue, it is an exciting Bond film.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing South Florida
    Posts: 3,237
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I have a blast with the bulk of DAD. When it falls, it falls hard, but in that first hour and 15 minutes, aside from Jinx and Madonna and some cringeworthy dialogue, it is an exciting Bond film.

    As do I. The first hour plus is some of the best in the Brosnan era. 16 years later, im still wrapping my head around how and why it had to go so sci-fi bonkers in the second half. The 14 year old me at the time couldn't get enough of it back in 2002
  • edited February 13 Posts: 618
    Both are not very good and not very fun to watch.

    The real controversial opinion is that I'd rather watch OP than either of them.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing South Florida
    Posts: 3,237
    I never believed in the good and bad when it comes to Bond. I don't flat out hate any of them like most. They're either favorites or least favorites but I'd take all 24 of them over any other movie any time
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    Posts: 27,211
    The only one that does absolutely nothing for me is SP. The only reason I watch it at all is that it's a Bond film.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Hamburg, near the Atlantic Hotel
    Posts: 4,852
    At the risk of repeating myself from several other threads, my principal problem with DAD is that after an overall promising first half (roughly), it lets you down so completely with its utterly idiotic plot, it ridiculous CGI nonsense scenes, and even more its imbecilic dialogue that due to utter disappointment, I fail to see any saving grace in the entire movie. Initially I was delighted that it seemed to be at least better than the convoluted mess that was TWiNE, but unfortunately I had to learn otherwise halfway through the film. It turned out even worse.

    In comparison, I hate the foster-brother back story of SP and basically the destruction of the Blofeld character and SPECTRE organisation as a nemesis for decades to come. But other than that, I like the overall mood and feeling of SP far more than the puerile attempt at humour that marked the Brosnan films, especially the last two. Brosnan was best when he made no jokes, because the type of stuff that Rog could pull off came out flat and merely cringe-inducing with Broz. Granted he also had worse material than Rog as well.

    Apart from the Bloberhauser issue, SP disappointed me mainly in one regard: It wasn't nearly as good as its predecessor, which I still consider the best (which to me equals most enjoyable) Bond film since FRWL. My only four "9/10" Bond films are FRWL, GF, CR and SF. And overall Craig's films revitalised my love for Bond movies which had severely suffered during the second half of the Brosnan "era". I'm fine with Craig as Bond and his overall record, though it took a bit of a dive in the last installment.
  • ShakenNotStirredShakenNotStirred We All Have Our Secrets
    Posts: 576
    I never believed in the good and bad when it comes to Bond. I don't flat out hate any of them like most. They're either favorites or least favorites but I'd take all 24 of them over any other movie any time

    I share this opinion in bold! I don't hate any Bond film and definitely do not think any are outright terrible. Some I like to re-watch more than others.

    I can watch Spectre pre-titles again and again, the best part of the film.
    DAD is great fun...up until ICE PALACE. Then it's very OTT. But really, not much different than Moonraker or YOLT in terms of realistic 3rd acts :)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf England
    Posts: 3,879
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    At the risk of repeating myself from several other threads, my principal problem with DAD is that after an overall promising first half (roughly), it lets you down so completely with its utterly idiotic plot, it ridiculous CGI nonsense scenes, and even more its imbecilic dialogue that due to utter disappointment, I fail to see any saving grace in the entire movie. Initially I was delighted that it seemed to be at least better than the convoluted mess that was TWiNE, but unfortunately I had to learn otherwise halfway through the film. It turned out even worse.

    In comparison, I hate the foster-brother back story of SP and basically the destruction of the Blofeld character and SPECTRE organisation as a nemesis for decades to come. But other than that, I like the overall mood and feeling of SP far more than the puerile attempt at humour that marked the Brosnan films, especially the last two. Brosnan was best when he made no jokes, because the type of stuff that Rog could pull off came out flat and merely cringe-inducing with Broz. Granted he also had worse material than Rog as well.

    Apart from the Bloberhauser issue, SP disappointed me mainly in one regard: It wasn't nearly as good as its predecessor, which I still consider the best (which to me equals most enjoyable) Bond film since FRWL. My only four "9/10" Bond films are FRWL, GF, CR and SF. And overall Craig's films revitalised my love for Bond movies which had severely suffered during the second half of the Brosnan "era". I'm fine with Craig as Bond and his overall record, though it took a bit of a dive in the last installment.

    Great post. Although, I believe SF to be brilliant yet overrated. I am surprised OHMSS and TB aren't topping your list too.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Hamburg, near the Atlantic Hotel
    Posts: 4,852
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Great post. Although, I believe SF to be brilliant yet overrated. I am surprised OHMSS and TB aren't topping your list too.

    Thanks for the applause. However, to reply to your final remark: OHMSS would be up there if they hadn't had Lazenby as the main character. I think he couldn't really act his way out of a restroom stall and is easily the worst thing about that movie. TB is brilliant in many ways but the only classic Bond film I consider borderline boring...and even NSNA more entertaining, if that's an indication.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf England
    Posts: 3,879
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Great post. Although, I believe SF to be brilliant yet overrated. I am surprised OHMSS and TB aren't topping your list too.

    Thanks for the applause. However, to reply to your final remark: OHMSS would be up there if they hadn't had Lazenby as the main character. I think he couldn't really act his way out of a restroom stall and is easily the worst thing about that movie. TB is brilliant in many ways but the only classic Bond film I consider borderline boring...and even NSNA more entertaining, if that's an indication.

    How about Dr No???
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Hamburg, near the Atlantic Hotel
    Posts: 4,852
    suavejmf wrote: »
    How about Dr No???
    Nice first try, though not as iconic as the later Connery films, with an inferior score (ok, in comparison to Barry you may say that also about CR and SF), a definitely cheap "B-movie" feeling, a few things that might appear questionable today (in terms of "racism", including the "yellow-facing" of Dr. No and Miss Taro), unnecessary goofs (the hearse changing from one car to another when going down the cliff)...and that kind of minor stuff, which makes me "only" give it an 8/10. Which is twice as much as DAD, just to get back on the thread subject.
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