"SPECTRE" Appreciation Topic (...and why you think the 24th Bond film was the best spy film of 2015)

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  • Posts: 11,425
    The last act of SP is not terrible, but it sort of dropped the ball. The problem is that the last trial in the Mi6 building did not test Bond's wits or intelligence or even his physicality. He really just ran around until Madeleine decided to scream (when she had a gag in her mouth) and then jumped down onto a conveniently placed net to get into a conveniently placed boat to then shoot down a surprisingly vulnerable helicopter. Hmm. This is Bond, they could have done better...

    Shades of DAF and TWINE
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The last act of SP is not terrible, but it sort of dropped the ball. The problem is that the last trial in the Mi6 building did not test Bond's wits or intelligence or even his physicality. He really just ran around until Madeleine decided to scream (when she had a gag in her mouth) and then jumped down onto a conveniently placed net to get into a conveniently placed boat to then shoot down a surprisingly vulnerable helicopter. Hmm. This is Bond, they could have done better...
    ...this just keeps getting better and better. What were they thinking?
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    I blame P+W, Mendes and EON. The writing has been a shambles for three decades now - basically since Maibaum left. Either woefully sub-par or hastily cobbled together at the last minute, or both.

    Why on earth can't they get this right?

    The writing was better back in the days when they banged a film out once every year or two. MGW could have done a better job on his own probably.

    Meanwhile Babs is focused on addressing nepotism in the British film industry - presumably she's a big advocate for it?

    It's embarrassing.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    I blame P+W, Mendes and EON. The writing has been a shambles for three decades now - basically since Maibaum left. Either woefully sub-par or hastily cobbled together at the last minute, or both.

    Why on earth can't they get this right?

    The writing was better back in the days when they banged a film out once every year or two. MGW could have done a better job on his own probably.

    Meanwhile Babs is focused on addressing nepotism in the British film industry - presumably she's a big advocate for it?

    It's embarrassing.

    Hear hear.

    Babs making a laughing stock of herself campaigning for a stop to nepotism and people getting work because of who they know and not talent when she's grooming the Wilson brothers for the family business and has been allowing P&W to steal a living for the past 20 years.

    If you're an up and coming writer bristling with ideas for Bond that Fleming would be proud to call his own what chance of you getting the opportunity to script a Bond film?

    I think about the same as Grant letting you have a cigarette when he's got you on your knees with a gun pointed at you.

    I know MGW's commitment to the cause can't be questioned and he deserves to retire but please Michael just do one more Bond script. The 80s screenplays piss all over what we've had for the last 25 years.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    I blame P+W, Mendes and EON. The writing has been a shambles for three decades now - basically since Maibaum left. Either woefully sub-par or hastily cobbled together at the last minute, or both.

    Why on earth can't they get this right?

    The writing was better back in the days when they banged a film out once every year or two. MGW could have done a better job on his own probably.

    Meanwhile Babs is focused on addressing nepotism in the British film industry - presumably she's a big advocate for it?

    It's embarrassing.

    I really think P&W are given a very unfair (and undeserved as well) bad rap by all of you. For all we know TWINE is the only script of them in which their work either wasn't tinkered with or simply completely thrown overboard. And despite what many of you are thinking it's an almost perfect script for a spy movie. The fact alone that it has a completely original plot, which by the way is today just as up-to-date as it was then, speaks for itself, especially when it comes to our most beloved franchise. I know they have their problems (for example the trust issue which is a dead horse they have really beaten as thoroughly as possible) but many of the things people here are complaining about are to my mind not their fault. And when it comes to SP they stated in interviews that they were working very much on the fly with this one, with executives of EON and MGM/Sony practically calling on them every hour demanding changes for whatever reason.
  • Posts: 11,425
    TWINE is probably my least favourite Bond film of all time. I'm guessing the screenplay was an element of that toxic cocktail of cliche and boredom.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    TWINE is probably my least favourite Bond film of all time. I'm guessing the screenplay was an element of that toxic cocktail of cliche and boredom.

    You and many others here may not realize it, but movie Bond is very rarely more Flemingesque than in it. Also, go and try to find a plot hole in it, then go and repeat that exercise with all the Bond movies of this millennium. And let me repeat its plot is absolutely original and on the height of time, which in this day and age in the movie industry is as rare as a virgin in the porn business.
  • Posts: 11,425
    It's still the worst Bond film ever made. Much worse than DAD.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I haven't had time to contemplate TWINE's plot in detail because I can't stand the film. 24 out of 24 for me. So firmly implanted at the bottom that even the return of Mendes, Waltz and Seydoux for B25 won't change that.

    I suppose its failure is in the casting, acting (one significant character in particular) and the abysmal direction.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    TWINE is probably my least favourite Bond film of all time. I'm guessing the screenplay was an element of that toxic cocktail of cliche and boredom.

    You and many others here may not realize it, but movie Bond is very rarely more Flemingesque than in it. Also, go and try to find a plot hole in it, then go and repeat that exercise with all the Bond movies of this millennium. And let me repeat its plot is absolutely original and on the height of time, which in this day and age in the movie industry is as rare as a virgin in the porn business.

    What are you wittering on about? The villain plans to corner the oil market by orchestrating a disaster to leave her in control of the only working pipeline.

    Just like Goldfinger and Zorin before her.

    Apart from that the only original thing is the personal angle of M knowing the villain - a depressing pit we've only just reached the bottom of with SP.

    The rest of it is by the numbers Bond which, when directed by a guy totally unsuited to big budget action cinema, leads to an extremely pedestrian entry.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,815

    The rest of it is by the numbers Bond which, when directed by a guy totally unsuited to big budget action cinema, leads to an extremely pedestrian entry.

    Well almost every single JB film is "by the numbers" and that has little to no effect on the quality of the film itself. The only films that are in any form "original" might be DN, OHMSS, LTK and CR. This does not mean that the others should be written off by principle.

    Yes, Apted was punching above his weight when it came to directing but with the help of the 2nd unit, it turned out very well. He aced the dialogue-driven moments though.

    Pedestrian? Perhaps, but not even close to Glen's definition of pedestrian. You must really hate those, since 4/5 were completely by the numbers and had no proper originality of concept. I just don't get why you critique TWINE for being like most of the other JB films??
  • Posts: 1,162
    If you apply that kind of logic you could also argue that after "the great train robbery"
    of 1903 there was no new plot in heist movies. After all it's all about getting other peoples money.
    But of course if you use it, you are somehow right, so I stand corrected.
    As I told before, I'm mainly a reader of espionage thrillers and it's one of the few Bond movies that could really stand on its own feet as a serious spy novel plot wise.
    Also, a villain actually just a puppet played by the supposedly victim. To me that's quite new. Not only in Bond movies.
    Finally let me emphasize that you won't find me defending Mr. Apted's direction. I am absolutely aware of the faults of this movie.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's still the worst Bond film ever made. Much worse than DAD.

    Personally I would give that title - without any hesitation - to SF and SP.
    But that's exactly why there is no use in arguing about taste.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I'm no fan of SF but it's superior in every way to TWINE, which is dreary, formulaic film making at its absolute worst
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,117

    Well almost every single JB film is "by the numbers" and that has little to no effect on the quality of the film itself. The only films that are in any form "original" might be DN, OHMSS, LTK and CR. This does not mean that the others should be written off by principle.

    Indeed they are by the numbers but a good director and script mixes up the formula in a satisfying fashion.
    Yes, Apted was punching above his weight when it came to directing but with the help of the 2nd unit, it turned out very well. He aced the dialogue-driven moments though.

    Do me a favour mate. Apart from the PTS the action is extremely average and 'aced the dialogue? Exhibit A: 'There's no point in living if you cant feel aliiive'.
    Hardly Bond and Grant in the train compartment is it?
    Pedestrian? Perhaps, but not even close to Glen's definition of pedestrian. You must really hate those, since 4/5 were completely by the numbers and had no proper originality of concept. I just don't get why you critique TWINE for being like most of the other JB films??

    I'm not criticising by the numbers entries if they are done well but a team of Apted, P&W and Vic Armstrong largely on autopilot isn't going to yield spectacular results.

    FYEO, OP, TLD and LTK batter TWINE to the floor and stomp on its head without even breaking sweat. I'd probably have it shading AVTAK in fairness, but the combination of Glen and a Maibaum & MGW script plus the best collection of action scenes of the series is a very solid run of films.
    If you apply that kind of logic you could also argue that after "the great train robbery"
    of 1903 there was no new plot in heist movies. After all it's all about getting other peoples money.
    But of course if you use it, you are somehow right, so I stand corrected.

    I'm glad you understand how the system works. So many people think its worth their time arguing when we all know I'm right.
    As I told before, I'm mainly a reader of espionage thrillers and it's one of the few Bond movies that could really stand on its own feet as a serious spy novel plot wise.
    Also, a villain actually just a puppet played by the supposedly victim. To me that's quite new. Not only in Bond movies.
    Finally let me emphasize that you won't find me defending Mr. Apted's direction. I am absolutely aware of the faults of this movie.

    You may be correct that, to paraphrase Tiffany Case, 'It reads better than it watches' and the female villain (despite the twist being visible from a mile off) and the personal plot to M were original at the time to be fair, as was the Stockholm syndrome thing. I guess my main gripes (apart from the soap opera stuff between Bond and Elektra) are the average action scenes and the total and utter waste of Robert Carlyle. Hes given this big build up in the briefing that he will get stronger and more impervious to pain and then after one half decent scene with Bond he just peters out with a very average punch up.

    Also although I like M getting kidnapped it came across as an afterthought just tossed in when they should have used it Colonel Sun plot as the basis for a whole film.

    Dont get me wrong I dont loathe TWINE like some and on paper there is so much more to enjoy than TND (which is the very definition of a by the numbers Bond film) but somehow TND just gels together far better and is a much slicker package. I think TWINE gets weighed down under the burden of its dramatic aspirations. Its a story more suited to the Craig era and it would be a far better entry had it been part of the 'this time its personal' Craig era I think.

    It trundles along happily enough and to be fair is pretty competent but never shows any sign of elevating itself above being above average.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    edited June 2017 Posts: 1,815

    Well almost every single JB film is "by the numbers" and that has little to no effect on the quality of the film itself. The only films that are in any form "original" might be DN, OHMSS, LTK and CR. This does not mean that the others should be written off by principle.

    Indeed they are by the numbers but a good director and script mixes up the formula in a satisfying fashion.
    Yes, Apted was punching above his weight when it came to directing but with the help of the 2nd unit, it turned out very well. He aced the dialogue-driven moments though.

    Do me a favour mate. Apart from the PTS the action is extremely average and 'aced the dialogue? Exhibit A: 'There's no point in living if you cant feel aliiive'.
    Hardly Bond and Grant in the train compartment is it?
    Pedestrian? Perhaps, but not even close to Glen's definition of pedestrian. You must really hate those, since 4/5 were completely by the numbers and had no proper originality of concept. I just don't get why you critique TWINE for being like most of the other JB films??

    I'm not criticising by the numbers entries if they are done well but a team of Apted, P&W and Vic Armstrong largely on autopilot isn't going to yield spectacular results.

    FYEO, OP, TLD and LTK batter TWINE to the floor and stomp on its head without even breaking sweat. I'd probably have it shading AVTAK in fairness, but the combination of Glen and a Maibaum & MGW script plus the best collection of action scenes of the series is a very solid run of films.

    The action in TWINE is better than average. The PTS (which you mentioned), the bunker and the finale* aboard the submarine. Also, we get Bond doing some ruthless things in this film. E.g immediately shooting Dr. Arkov twice and who can forget Bond killing Elektra in cold blood??

    The fact that we get a female villain also differentiates it from the rest. At least they were trying out new things and went through with them.

    Edit: That line sounded like it did because of his accent.

    (*I don't understand the hate for this fight.)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,351
    on paper there is so much more to enjoy than TND (which is the very definition of a by the numbers Bond film) but somehow TND just gels together far better and is a much slicker package. I think TWINE gets weighed down under the burden of its dramatic aspirations.
    Agreed. However I think I enjoy both films a lot more that you do (or MOST here, it seems).
  • Posts: 11,425
    TND is Brozza's best. Ranked 21/24. TWINE is abysmal.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    TND is Brozza's best. Ranked 21/24. TWINE is abysmal.

    As I said, to me a good (and somehow original)story is of utmost importance. TWINE qualifies easily
  • Posts: 11,425
    A good story is very important. I'm not sure that TWINE qualifies, and even if it did, the execution is a snore fest.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Since I quite often happen to agree with you I'm really quite curious what makes you think so. Could you please tell me the points in the story that really irk you or strike you as unbondian?
    Oh, and you can spare you the part about Brosnan. I think I have a fair idea of what you have to say about his part in it ( and I agree he does some quite funny faces in it, but since he doesn't display them in his other movies I have to blame Apted for it).
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 34,963
    Back on topic, please. We have countless threads for Brosnan bashing.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,057
    Wretched hives of scum and villainy. Spectre's a fun top fiver for me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    edited June 2017 Posts: 28,231
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Back on topic, please. We have countless threads for Brosnan bashing.

    For SP bashing too apparently, even in its own appreciation thread. ;)
  • Posts: 11,119
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Back on topic, please. We have countless threads for Brosnan bashing.

    For SP bashing too apparently, even in its own appreciation thread. ;)

    Exactly. Would be sweet if a moderator comments on that
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,231
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Back on topic, please. We have countless threads for Brosnan bashing.

    For SP bashing too apparently, even in its own appreciation thread. ;)

    Exactly. Would be sweet if a moderator comments on that

    @Gustav_Graves, after a while you just get used to it. There's no way to go on this forum every day if one gets bugged by it.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,277
    Getafix wrote: »
    I blame P+W, Mendes and EON. The writing has been a shambles for three decades now - basically since Maibaum left. Either woefully sub-par or hastily cobbled together at the last minute, or both.

    Why on earth can't they get this right?

    The writing was better back in the days when they banged a film out once every year or two. MGW could have done a better job on his own probably.

    Meanwhile Babs is focused on addressing nepotism in the British film industry - presumably she's a big advocate for it?

    It's embarrassing.

    I think the blame can be cast upon the decision not to delay production until the script had been 100% smoothed out. Logan's script, delivered in late summer of 2014, by all accounts, was "less-than-stellar." The revision process was too fast, and the script still was not ready...as we are demonstrating in picking out its holes, that seemed a byproduct of simply not thinking things through.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe "I need a year off" Craig
    Posts: 7,305
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I blame P+W, Mendes and EON. The writing has been a shambles for three decades now - basically since Maibaum left. Either woefully sub-par or hastily cobbled together at the last minute, or both.

    Why on earth can't they get this right?

    The writing was better back in the days when they banged a film out once every year or two. MGW could have done a better job on his own probably.

    Meanwhile Babs is focused on addressing nepotism in the British film industry - presumably she's a big advocate for it?

    It's embarrassing.

    I think the blame can be cast upon the decision not to delay production until the script had been 100% smoothed out. Logan's script, delivered in late summer of 2014, by all accounts, was "less-than-stellar." The revision process was too fast, and the script still was not ready...as we are demonstrating in picking out its holes, that seemed a byproduct of simply not thinking things through.

    I agree. I'm glad they're taking their time with Bond 25, unlike Quantum and SPECTRE.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Back on topic, please. We have countless threads for Brosnan bashing.

    For SP bashing too apparently, even in its own appreciation thread. ;)

    Exactly. Would be sweet if a moderator comments on that

    @Gustav_Graves, after a while you just get used to it. There's no way to go on this forum every day if one gets bugged by it.

    As far as I know it has been agreed upon a few weeks ago that appreciation threads may also include negative opinions. Simply for the sake of sheer threads count, as I understood it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2017 Posts: 9,117
    TripAces wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I blame P+W, Mendes and EON. The writing has been a shambles for three decades now - basically since Maibaum left. Either woefully sub-par or hastily cobbled together at the last minute, or both.

    Why on earth can't they get this right?

    The writing was better back in the days when they banged a film out once every year or two. MGW could have done a better job on his own probably.

    Meanwhile Babs is focused on addressing nepotism in the British film industry - presumably she's a big advocate for it?

    It's embarrassing.

    I think the blame can be cast upon the decision not to delay production until the script had been 100% smoothed out. Logan's script, delivered in late summer of 2014, by all accounts, was "less-than-stellar." The revision process was too fast, and the script still was not ready...as we are demonstrating in picking out its holes, that seemed a byproduct of simply not thinking things through.

    How could it not be ready when they waited a year extra for Mendes? Did they all just go on down the pub for a year? Why was the script not largely nailed down by the end of 2013/early 2014 given they originally would have been scheduled to shoot in early 2014 without the Mendes delay? Then they could have spent the next 10 months or so polishing it.

    Instead of which we get to what? June 2014 before anyone notices Logan's script is shite and they have to draft in P&W to do a resuce job?

    Half arsed and incompetent doesnt even come close. This is a $250m investment not a village fete FFS.
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