Let's talk about Spectre's torture scene

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 14,784
    I think it’s inarguably Blofeld escaping in those cars. How else would he be alive in London?

    Yeah I'd definitely say you're right about that: I doubt that shot would be in the movie unless that's what they were trying to say.
    I think the debate is whether or not they activated a self destruct on the Lair.

    I guess it could be, but I think the film really only suggests that Bond's actions cause the chain reaction and I'm happy to go with that. Maybe destroy it once he's escaped when you realise he's told the authorities about it but doing so before he's even out of the gates seems a bit hasty, unless it's actually an attempt to blow Bond up too. Do you mean it might be a way for Blofeld to fake his death? I guess that could make sense.

    One thing I quite like about Spectre is that it shows Bond to be double-hard at most opportunities: normal guards and henchmen pose little threat to him and he even basically tells one of the guys at the clinic not to try! And here, because he's an awesome special forces type, he pretty easily picks off most of Blofeld's guards once he has an assault rifle. I rather like that.

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,857
    Is it ever good for a movie to have ambiguity? I was taught in public speaking that you need to not leave loose threads in your speech because the audience will start to focus more on the unanswered then the answered.

    I find the torture scene to be the turning point in the movie. How does Blofeld not damage Bond's brain when he seems so sure that his memory will now be gone? How does Blofeld escape so quickly after Bond leaves? Why or how is there this huge explosion? What's the point of a self destruct when it's only 2 people (one a civilian) escaping? The whole thing is a head scratcher.

    If it was me I would have had the climax of the film here and forget all the London stuff. Have Blofeld escape after a battle with Bond and set it up for the next movie. If everyone suspected this was Craig's farewell and you have plans to use SPECTRE in future films why the bloody hell use them here?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,517
    Years ago someone on this forum sent me the leaked Spectre script (after I expressly asked them not to), and it remained unopened in my messages until yesterday, when I decided to have a look at what this scene looked like in the script. A couple things:
    1. Apparently immediately after the explosion, Bond originally ran to the spot where Blofeld was thrown to kill or capture him, but by the time Bond got to that spot, Blofeld was gone and there was only a blood splatter left from where he was. This obviously didn't make it into the final film.
    2. It was made clear in the script that Bond caused the entire explosion. There was some exposition where Bond sees the gas tanks, shoots them, and they're engulfed in flames, and then Bond says to Swann, "If the gas tanks are all connected underground, then--" or something to that effect, right before our award winning explosion of Blofeld's lair.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    To be honest, a single explosion from a Michael Bay film beats the Blofeld explosion....no proper Camera angles, No low-angle shots, no aerial shots of the explosion. The explosion looks like something from a Spanish TV series. Hard to believe it's the same Director who filmed the Helicopter Crash in Skyfall's Lodge.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,157
    They could've done something pretty inventive and clever with Bond being seriously incapacitated by the torture - hell, Blofeld waxes poetic enough about how debilitating it will be - only for Bond to magically have super-soldier aim and abilities immediately after. The sequence as a whole doesn't work for me and it builds up to a pretty mediocre explosion and escape sequence.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    To be honest, a single explosion from a Michael Bay film beats the Blofeld explosion....no proper Camera angles, No low-angle shots, no aerial shots of the explosion. The explosion looks like something from a Spanish TV series. Hard to believe it's the same Director who filmed the Helicopter Crash in Skyfall's Lodge.

    They definitely could have done more, but Bay explosions to me always just look like a fireworks display.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    To be honest, a single explosion from a Michael Bay film beats the Blofeld explosion....no proper Camera angles, No low-angle shots, no aerial shots of the explosion. The explosion looks like something from a Spanish TV series. Hard to believe it's the same Director who filmed the Helicopter Crash in Skyfall's Lodge.

    They definitely could have done more, but Bay explosions to me always just look like a fireworks display.

    Yeah I rather like that it's a very straight and simple shot showing you that it's a huge explosion. I think it looks great.
    Must've been pretty nerve-wracking for the actors! Imagine messing that up!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    They could've done something pretty inventive and clever with Bond being seriously incapacitated by the torture - hell, Blofeld waxes poetic enough about how debilitating it will be - only for Bond to magically have super-soldier aim and abilities immediately after. The sequence as a whole doesn't work for me and it builds up to a pretty mediocre explosion and escape sequence.

    Yes i guess the idea was for the "I'd recognise you anywhere" line to sort of be the cue for Madeline to realise how much she cares for Bond, but none of it quite lands- and it may have been better if Bond had used a gadget to disrupt the equipment or stop the needle from going in. I remember first seeing it and being quite excited by the idea that the drill actually went in and we're likely about to see Bond the most vulnerable he's ever been, but it just... doesn't work. And that is a little bit of a cheat- you can't really give the audience information like that and just decide not to follow up on it. It's unsatisfying.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,810
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

    Sure but that's not really how movie storytelling works: if you tell the audience something then you have to treat that as being true unless you make it clear that it's not. For the same reason the Mathis thing makes the end of CR rather muddled and confusing.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    mtm wrote: »
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

    Sure but that's not really how movie storytelling works: if you tell the audience something then you have to treat that as being true unless you make it clear that it's not. For the same reason the Mathis thing makes the end of CR rather muddled and confusing.

    Agreed. Hate Le Chiffre's Mathis line.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,961
    mtm wrote: »
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

    Sure but that's not really how movie storytelling works: if you tell the audience something then you have to treat that as being true unless you make it clear that it's not. For the same reason the Mathis thing makes the end of CR rather muddled and confusing.

    Agreed. Hate Le Chiffre's Mathis line.

    Yes, me too. It's one of the only blemishes on the film script wise. They kind of clear it up during the phone call at the end; but it's one of the things I would have liked them to touch upon with a bit more clarity in QoS, where they instead use it as a punchline.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,810
    There is dialog, and there is the evidence on screen for what occurs. Regarding Casino Royale I understand the issue with something not resolved within the movie.

    With Spectre what plays out on screen is clear to me storywise.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    mtm wrote: »
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

    Sure but that's not really how movie storytelling works: if you tell the audience something then you have to treat that as being true unless you make it clear that it's not. For the same reason the Mathis thing makes the end of CR rather muddled and confusing.

    Agreed. Hate Le Chiffre's Mathis line.

    Yes, me too. It's one of the only blemishes on the film script wise. They kind of clear it up during the phone call at the end; but it's one of the things I would have liked them to touch upon with a bit more clarity in QoS, where they instead use it as a punchline.

    If he had said something along the lines of "some of your friends are, in fact, my friends" (but better written), or something similar to what he said but more vague, it would have been much better. Would have confirmed Bond's suspicion of Mathis in the minds of the audience, but then at the end, the audience would have realized he was talking about Vesper.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 14,784
    mtm wrote: »
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

    Sure but that's not really how movie storytelling works: if you tell the audience something then you have to treat that as being true unless you make it clear that it's not. For the same reason the Mathis thing makes the end of CR rather muddled and confusing.

    Agreed. Hate Le Chiffre's Mathis line.

    Yes, me too. It's one of the only blemishes on the film script wise. They kind of clear it up during the phone call at the end; but it's one of the things I would have liked them to touch upon with a bit more clarity in QoS, where they instead use it as a punchline.

    Yeah I think the foggiest bit is where Vesper leaves Bond in the restaurant and he has a little think and says ‘Mathis..!’ before running to his car. I’m still not entirely clear on what he was thinking here and I’ve seen it quite a few times! :)


    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,564
    I think the debate is whether or not they activated a self destruct on the Lair. (...) Showing the cars driving away from the exploding lair is just for us. Bond doesn’t see it.
    Yes, the debate is on the self destruct, but you also used the cavalcade as an argument. It just makes Bond look a bit stupid that the careful viewers see Blofeld escaping and Bond only needs to turn his head to see the cars with his archenemy, too. And why didn't Bond check to see whether there are survivors, possibly Blofeld?
    thedove wrote: »
    I was taught in public speaking that you need to not leave loose threads in your speech because the audience will start to focus more on the unanswered then the answered.
    I agree, but it doesn't bother me too much in SP's ending because there are also several things I like about it. While I agree with what has been said about CR's ending being muddled and confusing; extremely so, IMO. They should have given Vesper a very different death.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Yeah, @marc....I think if they wanted Vesper to die the way she did in the Novel, maybe it might have been too Shakespearean. Casino Royale was true to Fleming on screen, but they did make some changes....like depicting Le Chiffre as a younger man, but in the Novel, he was older and even calls Bond-'My Dear Boy'.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,961
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,517
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Blofeld could simply be wrong. Or be using misdirection like Le Chiffre proposing Bond's friend Mathis is really his friend Mathis.

    He's the villain, after all.

    Sure but that's not really how movie storytelling works: if you tell the audience something then you have to treat that as being true unless you make it clear that it's not. For the same reason the Mathis thing makes the end of CR rather muddled and confusing.

    Agreed. Hate Le Chiffre's Mathis line.

    Yes, me too. It's one of the only blemishes on the film script wise. They kind of clear it up during the phone call at the end; but it's one of the things I would have liked them to touch upon with a bit more clarity in QoS, where they instead use it as a punchline.

    Yeah I think the foggiest bit is where Vesper leaves Bond in the restaurant and he has a little think and says ‘Mathis..!’ before running to his car. I’m still not entirely clear on what he was thinking here and I’ve seen it quite a few times! :)


    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was basically process of elimination, and Bonds refusal to view Vesper as a possible turncoat.

    He couldn’t understand how Le Chiffre knew about his own tell... he figured Mathis had told him (he was the only one that Bond told... outside of Vesper).
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,564
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Yeah, @marc....I think if they wanted Vesper to die the way she did in the Novel, maybe it might have been too Shakespearean. Casino Royale was true to Fleming on screen, but they did make some changes....like depicting Le Chiffre as a younger man, but in the Novel, he was older and even calls Bond-'My Dear Boy'.
    Well, sometimes I welcome changes to the novel; I don't mind Chiffre being younger, and they didn't need to keep an outright Shakespearean death, but I would have wished for something closer to that.

    Now finally through this thread I learn Mathis had been an ally all the time. :--) I had wondered in QoS whether he had changed sides because his death bothers Bond. But I admit I didn't care to think about the CR ending or QoS.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

    Yeah I get who the bodies are, but that's Le Chiffre's driver is it? Do we see him in other scenes? Does the car appear elsewhere?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 7,961
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

    Yeah I get who the bodies are, but that's Le Chiffre's driver is it? Do we see him in other scenes? Does the car appear elsewhere?

    The car, no. I don't think so. The driver does though, I think he's seen in the background of the hotel scenes. I'd have to rewatch that to confirm!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

    Yeah I get who the bodies are, but that's Le Chiffre's driver is it? Do we see him in other scenes? Does the car appear elsewhere?

    The car, no. I don't think so. The driver does though, I think he's seen in the background of the hotel scenes. I'd have to rewatch that to confirm!

    Gosh okay, I don’t remember spotting him. Do you get what I mean though? That balcony scene is presented like we’re supposed to recognise those guys and the car.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,961
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

    Yeah I get who the bodies are, but that's Le Chiffre's driver is it? Do we see him in other scenes? Does the car appear elsewhere?

    The car, no. I don't think so. The driver does though, I think he's seen in the background of the hotel scenes. I'd have to rewatch that to confirm!

    Gosh okay, I don’t remember spotting him. Do you get what I mean though? That balcony scene is presented like we’re supposed to recognise those guys and the car.

    Yes, absolutely, I agree. Looking back on it, they should have used one of the goons that was more instantly recognisable. There were a couple of them in there - the distinctly bald chap who was with Le Chiffre on his boat earlier in the film would have been ideal.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,517
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

    Yeah I get who the bodies are, but that's Le Chiffre's driver is it? Do we see him in other scenes? Does the car appear elsewhere?

    The car, no. I don't think so. The driver does though, I think he's seen in the background of the hotel scenes. I'd have to rewatch that to confirm!

    Gosh okay, I don’t remember spotting him. Do you get what I mean though? That balcony scene is presented like we’re supposed to recognise those guys and the car.

    While it's true that each time I've watched Casino Royale, I was never sure who the car belonged to specifically, or who they were arresting specifically, it was never enough to take me out of the film.

    In my mind, it was someone associated with Le Chiffre, and that was enough for me.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    On the subject of odd bits in CR, who are those people that Mathis has the corpses planted in the boot of their car at the hotel? They have a distinctive car so I assume we’re supposed to know them but I’m not sure they appear anywhere else..? Has a scene been chopped?

    That was the African warlord and his henchman that Bond killed in the stairwell. Mathis puts their bodies into Le Chiffre's driver's car.

    "That ought to keep Le Chiffre looking over his shoulder for a while."

    Yeah I get who the bodies are, but that's Le Chiffre's driver is it? Do we see him in other scenes? Does the car appear elsewhere?

    The car, no. I don't think so. The driver does though, I think he's seen in the background of the hotel scenes. I'd have to rewatch that to confirm!

    Gosh okay, I don’t remember spotting him. Do you get what I mean though? That balcony scene is presented like we’re supposed to recognise those guys and the car.

    Yes, absolutely, I agree. If they were going to do it they should have used one of the goons that was more instantly recognisable. There were a couple of them in there - the distinctly bald chap who was with Le Chiffre on his boat earlier in the film would have been ideal.

    Yeah, and it feels to me like a sign of a deleted scene along the way. That car is so distinctive (I think it’s some old American limo or something?) that it feels like it’s there because the audience are supposed to recognise it. I might be wrong but there seemed to be a few bits chopped out of CR (like all that business with the torn playing cards from the trailer).
  • Posts: 12,506
    I wonder if memory loss may play into NTTD? :-?
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