Let's talk about Spectre's torture scene

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  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,595
    In terms of aesthetics it's pretty damn great, and Madelaine's dress is to die for. Love that hazy whiteness it has. But yeah, cool scene, but the aftermath is atrocious (cool explosion though without a doubt).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I pretty much agree with what's already been said. The scene would've been one of the best in the film for me if 1) Bond was shown to have actual damage in his ability to move or aim his gun 2) it took great effort for him to shoot his way out of the compound and 3) Madeleine was forced to pick up a gun and help him, adding another layer of her character that was planted during the gun scene on the train.

    I honestly can't believe Mendes and co. let this scene pass the way it is. It makes no sense the way it's constructed, and it would have been so damn easy to make it better. Just show Bond being affected...somehow, for crying out loud!

    Still loved it as I was well happy to see that scene from CS utilised but everything you say is spot on.

    How much better would it have been if Madeline had had to support a groggy Bond and took out a couple of goons then gets herself into a grapple whereupon a still disorientated Bond launches himself at the guy and together they desperately choke/beat the guy to death in a scene similar to the stairwell in CR?

    We dont really need the place to blow up but if it must it can be a chain reaction from the watch blowing, say, a tank of oxygen that they use to help resuscitate Bond earlier in the scene or something.

    And instead of the helicopter, Madeline bundles Bond onto the back seat of a car and floors it and its Blofeld who flies out of there instead.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,595
    @TheWizardofIce Yeah those CS lines were pretty cool although the needles in ears somehow unsettles me more than what we got.
    Great alternative ideas, both of you.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Birdleson wrote: »
    @TheWizardofIce Yeah those CS lines were pretty cool although the needles in ears somehow unsettles me more than what we got.
    Great alternative ideas, both of you.

    I would have rather seen it done closer to what was done in COLONEL SUN. In fact, I wish that the novel had just been adapted in whole.

    Well can't argue with that. Would rather have had the needles than the computer controlled drills but I took that on the chin as a modern update like I had to with the poker in CR. The fact we got it at all, pretty graphically for a 12 cert and with a hefty chunk of dialogue from the novel was the highlight of the film for me.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Why do they need to thank the estate? I understood it that EON had bought up the film rights to every novel just to avoid a repeat of someone trying to do a McClory.
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,817
    Murdock wrote: »
    @Birdleson
    I suppose you might be right ostensibly, but I think if any era was missing an homage it was the Dalton era.
    I would actually argue that superficially, SP is a throwback to the Connery and Lazenby days, but that's just the coat with which the movie is painted. On the inside, SP is really another Brosnan flick - another overblown movie with explosive and contrived action, but with little emphasis on plot.

    Like that's a bad thing. What Bond movie doesn't have explosions or contrived action? It's escapist fantasy not a documentary or police procedural. The Bond series has always been that way not Citizen Kane. Just because a Bond movie has explosions and actions scenes doesn't make it bad. And to single out Brosnan's run as just that? Really? I can think of examples in Every Bond film that had a contrived sequence and over blown explosion.

    I didn't say it was a bad thing, and I'm sure that's the style many admire. All I'm saying is that it is more pronounced generally in the Brosnan era - TND and TWINE having lots of fun but mindless action and DAD not really paying attention to its plot. Nor am I a Brosnan hater, since GE is my favourite.

    EDIT: and of course I don't think explosions and action scenes don't belong in Bond, without them they'd be colourless and dull!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,338
    Murdock wrote: »
    @Birdleson
    I suppose you might be right ostensibly, but I think if any era was missing an homage it was the Dalton era.
    I would actually argue that superficially, SP is a throwback to the Connery and Lazenby days, but that's just the coat with which the movie is painted. On the inside, SP is really another Brosnan flick - another overblown movie with explosive and contrived action, but with little emphasis on plot.

    Like that's a bad thing. What Bond movie doesn't have explosions or contrived action? It's escapist fantasy not a documentary or police procedural. The Bond series has always been that way not Citizen Kane. Just because a Bond movie has explosions and actions scenes doesn't make it bad. And to single out Brosnan's run as just that? Really? I can think of examples in Every Bond film that had a contrived sequence and over blown explosion.

    I didn't say it was a bad thing, and I'm sure that's the style many admire. All I'm saying is that it is more pronounced generally in the Brosnan era - TND and TWINE having lots of fun but mindless action and DAD not really paying attention to its plot. Nor am I a Brosnan hater, since GE is my favourite.

    EDIT: and of course I don't think explosions and action scenes don't belong in Bond, without them they'd be colourless and dull!

    My mistake. The Brosnan bashing got pretty hard here not to long ago and I admit I can be a little defensive. He's my favorite Bond and GE is my favorite Bond movie. No hard feelings. :)>-
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2016 Posts: 17,936
    Like the Wizard has already said I was just over the moon that they used part of the torture from Colonel Sun with the added bonus of the verbatim dialogue. The overt use of a continuation Bond novel easily places Spectre at number three on my list of Bond films after OHMSS and SF. Long may this sort of thing continue!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Like the Wizard has already said I was just over the moon that they used part of the torture from Colonel Sun with the added bonus of the verbatim dialogue. The overt use of a continuation Bond novel easily places Spectre at number three on my list of Bond films after OHMSS and SF. Long may this sort of thing continue!

    'Easily places SP at number 3'?

    Come along now Draggers. Are you seriously suggesting use of continuation material is enough to raise it above films that use solid chunks of Fleming material like DN, FRWL, GF, TLD and CR?

    I do hope this theory would not extend to ranking DAD top if only the villains name had been David Dragonpol?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2016 Posts: 17,936
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Like the Wizard has already said I was just over the moon that they used part of the torture from Colonel Sun with the added bonus of the verbatim dialogue. The overt use of a continuation Bond novel easily places Spectre at number three on my list of Bond films after OHMSS and SF. Long may this sort of thing continue!

    'Easily places SP at number 3'?

    Come along now Draggers. Are you seriously suggesting use of continuation material is enough to raise it above films that use solid chunks of Fleming material like DN, FRWL, GF, TLD and CR?

    I do hope this theory would not extend to ranking DAD top if only the villains name had been David Dragonpol?

    No, of course not. However, it did please me to see some Amis on the screen. I'm a continuation saddo but of course Fleming comes first!

    And no, not even John Gardner could have salvaged the train-wreck that is DAD, even though it did already feature an Ice Palace. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I remember once an article in 007 Magazine referring to how in the 80s AVTAK and TLD nicked from Gardner.

    In AVTAK there's the horse racing sequence and fight in the airship and in TLD the fight in the back of the plane.

    I guess they are more nicked in concept than anything because each scene is very different to how it plays out in the books but I guess there's something to the theory tha CS wasn't the first to pilfer from the continuation stories.

  • MrBondMrBond Station S
    Posts: 2,044
    How late of a addition was this scene?
    We know that the November script that they started to shoot on had the dinner-scene in place of the torture scene. I read somewhere, I think it was in "James Bond Archives" that the scene was written by Purvis and Wade in April.
    If that is so, would that explain the lack of context with the following shootout where Bond isn't wounded in any way?

    How did Bond escape the dinner and how did Blofelds lair blow up in the original script?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,936
    I remember once an article in 007 Magazine referring to how in the 80s AVTAK and TLD nicked from Gardner.

    In AVTAK there's the horse racing sequence and fight in the airship and in TLD the fight in the back of the plane.

    I guess they are more nicked in concept than anything because each scene is very different to how it plays out in the books but I guess there's something to the theory tha CS wasn't the first to pilfer from the continuation stories.

    Yes, it was probably this (updated) one by the masterful John Cox of The Book Bond:

    http://www.thebookbond.com/2011/11/deja-vu-mr-bond-surprising-similarities.html
  • Posts: 4,325
    I haven't actually read Colonel Sun, but I get the impression this scene may have been shoehorned in by P&W down to their love of literary Bond. If so I admire the intent but perhaps not the execution.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I remember once an article in 007 Magazine referring to how in the 80s AVTAK and TLD nicked from Gardner.

    In AVTAK there's the horse racing sequence and fight in the airship and in TLD the fight in the back of the plane.

    I guess they are more nicked in concept than anything because each scene is very different to how it plays out in the books but I guess there's something to the theory tha CS wasn't the first to pilfer from the continuation stories.

    Yes, it was probably this (updated) one by the masterful John Cox of The Book Bond:

    http://www.thebookbond.com/2011/11/deja-vu-mr-bond-surprising-similarities.html

    I'm talking late 80s mate. There was Bond fandom pre Internet too!

    Some of these are pretty desperate as well:

    'Key West is used as a location'

    That's using continuation source material? Really?
  • edited February 2016 Posts: 1,661
    Pierce2Daniel wrote:

    "It almost feels like the sequence was hurried together quickly as an afterthought"

    It was kinda. It was not in the leaked screenplay. The scene was added after the film was shooting. Perhaps it was written earlier and then removed from the final screenplay or the writers made it up during filming. I didn't mind the scene. Blofeld is a horrible bloke so he's entitled to torture James Bond!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,936
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I remember once an article in 007 Magazine referring to how in the 80s AVTAK and TLD nicked from Gardner.

    In AVTAK there's the horse racing sequence and fight in the airship and in TLD the fight in the back of the plane.

    I guess they are more nicked in concept than anything because each scene is very different to how it plays out in the books but I guess there's something to the theory tha CS wasn't the first to pilfer from the continuation stories.

    Yes, it was probably this (updated) one by the masterful John Cox of The Book Bond:

    http://www.thebookbond.com/2011/11/deja-vu-mr-bond-surprising-similarities.html

    I'm talking late 80s mate. There was Bond fandom pre Internet too!

    Some of these are pretty desperate as well:

    'Key West is used as a location'

    That's using continuation source material? Really?

    Well as I was only 5 in 1989 I don't recall that period and obviously didn't become a fan until about 1993.

    Interesting though that there was such an article in 007 Magazine. I recall that John Cox article being on the CBn Main Page in 2001.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    As soon as the scene started I thought of Colonel Sun. I was glad because that torture in the novel is very nasty and the film nicely updated it. Bond's escape was a bit naff but there you go.
    Would love to see Colonel Sun adapted and updated with Craig's Bond
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The whole sequence in the sterile room is a masterpiece from start to finish.
    The camera work, the set, the editing, the sound editing, the acting, the lighting, really everything.
    Waltz and Seydoux and Craig deliver Oscar worthy performances.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,338
    The whole scene is terrifying. I love it.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Am I the only one here who thinks that idea is utter bollocks?

    God knows the final reel wasn't brilliantly put together but I'm at a loss as to how this theory would improve upon anything.

    No, you most certainly are not.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,700
    Murdock wrote: »
    The whole scene is terrifying. I love it.
    And as one who read Colonel Sun I immediately 'got' the reference. That was really cool lemme tell you. ;)
  • It just feels very jarring somehow. Like it doesn't 'fit' in the picture.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    It just feels very jarring somehow. Like it doesn't 'fit' in the picture.

    I agree, but maybe that was intentional, and I'm not sure that it doesn't work (except the BS escape, that definitely doesn't work).

    I guess it kind of feels half-intentional, half-thrown in there at the last minute, since it wasn't in the leaked script.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,700
    The alarm was loud.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,338
    Bang on time. ;)
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The sterile room setting and the overall tone of that sequence is one more astonishingly well made scene in SP that stands out. Most memorable and already a timeless classic.
    Only comparable to the laser table scene in Goldfinger.
  • edited April 2016 Posts: 2,483
    The sterile room setting and the overall tone of that sequence is one more astonishingly well made scene in SP that stands out. Most memorable and already a timeless classic.
    Only comparable to the laser table scene in Goldfinger.

    You've just helped me pinpoint something about SP that's been nagging at me for some time. Specifically, I have, for the past few months felt that there's something rather cold and remote about SP's tone, but was at a loss for recalling another film that has the same strange tone. Your use of the word sterile, however, jogged something in my memory--SP has the same tonal feel as 2001: A Space Odyssey. Thank you!

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    SP felt quite Kubrickian to me on more than one occasion, actually. Especially that Rome meeting scene; very Eyes Wide Shut. And everyone was originally supposed to be in masks, which'd driven that creepiness home even further; I really wish we'd have gotten that.

    Combine that with the Shining-esque establishing shots of Scotland in SF and you can see that Mendes is a big Kubrick fan.
  • edited April 2016 Posts: 4,325
    SP felt quite Kubrickian to me on more than one occasion, actually. Especially that Rome meeting scene; very Eyes Wide Shut. And everyone was originally supposed to be in masks, which'd driven that creepiness home even further; I really wish we'd have gotten that.

    Combine that with the Shining-esque establishing shots of Scotland in SF and you can see that Mendes is a big Kubrick fan.

    yes, I remember there being a documentary on the BBC about A Clockwork Orange when it was re-released after Kubrick's death and he was interviewed on that - it was how I first came across Sam Mendes in fact.
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