Music in SPECTRE

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  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    @Gustav_Graves, funny you choose chose words, as I find Newman's scores emotionless - quite detached. I can see how they suit a certain type of movie, but he doesn't seem to have much range. I've seen most of these movies and the scores are completely forgettable. Wall-E? Nice animation but the score made absolute no impact whatsoever. I appreciate that some people see that as a sign of 'sophistication' or 'subtlety'. You call it 'taste'. I just call it forgettable.

    John Barry wipes the floor with someone line Arnold, who essentially inherited a job in the family firm. Barry got to the top through sheer talent, not family contacts. Do you really think someone with Newman's very average talent would have made it if it wasn't for his name?

    But that's why I stress my sentence: "It's all about personal taste" ;-). You can discuss it endlessly, but it's also quite useless at a certain point I think :-).
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    May be. But who sticks the soundtrack to any of those Newman films in the CD player?
  • Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    May be. But who sticks the soundtrack to any of those Newman films in the CD player?

    That's quite a rhetorical question. But to answer it in all honesty. Movie scores have never been really money-makers in the first place....chart-wise. They never bring in huge chunks of money. So while we can discuss which composer is more popular: Thomas Newman or David Arnold...or whatever kind of composer, the fact is not many people care :-).

    But I truly like Thomas Newman :-).

  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    Getafix wrote: »
    May be. But who sticks the soundtrack to any of those Newman films in the CD player?

    What about the Shawshank score? I listen to that one all the time!

  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    May be. But who sticks the soundtrack to any of those Newman films in the CD player?

    What about the Shawshank score? I listen to that one all the time!

    Another one that didn't register...
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Here's my review of Skyfall's OST

    I didn't hate Newman's score but I don't think it's all that great. I've done a tally of what I think is good, bad and alright. I'm surprised their were more tracks I liked than disliked. But I really hope Newman incorporates more Bond theme into SPECTRE's score. Craig's Bond has more than earned it. He's begging for it.

    Tracks I like(14)
    Grand Bazaar, Istanbul.
    Severine
    Brave New World
    Silhouette
    Modigliani
    Komodo Dragons
    The Chimera
    Close Shave
    Enquiry
    Breadcrumbs
    She's Mine
    Mother
    Old Dog, New Tricks

    Tracks I don't like.(12)
    New Digs
    Shanghai Drive
    Day Wasted
    Quartermaster
    Enjoying Death
    Health and Safety (I absolutely hate this track. It belongs in Wall-E)
    Granborough Road (DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN that's all I hear.)
    Skyfall (not Adele's song.)
    Kill them First
    Welcome to Scotland
    The Moors
    Adrenaline

    Tracks with mixed opinions.(7)
    Voluntary Retirement
    Jellyfish (I don't care for the beginning but when Bond is sneaking in the glass rooms that's where the song picks up.)
    Someone Usually Dies.
    The Bloody Shot (don't care for the first minute but the rest of the track is solid.)
    Tennyson
    Deep Water.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Murdock wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    You can post as many examples of Arnold era Brosnan as you like, he has nowhere the skill that Barry had in weaving the JB theme in and out of the score.

    Look you are satisfied with a tribute Bond act, to me Brosnan fans just like his films because they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, every cliche thrown at the screen in order to convince you that you are watching a Bond film and for me Arnold was a big part of that.

    Yeah, I never debated that Arnold is better than Barry. I was pointing out that Arnold weaves the Bond theme into his score. Which you kept claiming he just played the same Bond theme over and over again.

    And for your information, I like Brosnan's films because they introduced me to the damn Franchise. I'm not one of those Bond fans who clamor for super serious grittyness and realism. I like Brosnan's films because they entertain me and make me happy. I enjoy all the Bond films and the actors. Though I don't like all the soundtracks. I don't like the scores to Dr. No, TSWLM or Skyfall. Sorry I want someone better than Newman. I like Arnold's music better. I think he's a Better Bond composer. I'll happily take Barry Homages and pastiches over bland theme-less unmemorable tunes that put me to sleep as I try to remember what they sounded like.

    I want my Bond music to have Ooompf and Class not Newman's been there done that approach.

    You don't like Arnold, I don't like Newman. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You claim that Arnold can't weave the Bond theme into his scores and I proved that he could.

    Post of the day.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Don't know the names but I love the following cues:

    Open shot of Shanghai
    Bonds arrival at Macau by boat
    Bond and Severine on the boat approaching Silvas island
    New digs
    The Aston driving through Scotland

    There are others.
  • Posts: 12,436
    Just wondering when we got confirmed information about Adele performing the title song for SF? As I was thinking about when we may hear who is doing Spectre?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Walecs wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    You can post as many examples of Arnold era Brosnan as you like, he has nowhere the skill that Barry had in weaving the JB theme in and out of the score.

    Look you are satisfied with a tribute Bond act, to me Brosnan fans just like his films because they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, every cliche thrown at the screen in order to convince you that you are watching a Bond film and for me Arnold was a big part of that.

    Yeah, I never debated that Arnold is better than Barry. I was pointing out that Arnold weaves the Bond theme into his score. Which you kept claiming he just played the same Bond theme over and over again.

    And for your information, I like Brosnan's films because they introduced me to the damn Franchise. I'm not one of those Bond fans who clamor for super serious grittyness and realism. I like Brosnan's films because they entertain me and make me happy. I enjoy all the Bond films and the actors. Though I don't like all the soundtracks. I don't like the scores to Dr. No, TSWLM or Skyfall. Sorry I want someone better than Newman. I like Arnold's music better. I think he's a Better Bond composer. I'll happily take Barry Homages and pastiches over bland theme-less unmemorable tunes that put me to sleep as I try to remember what they sounded like.

    I want my Bond music to have Ooompf and Class not Newman's been there done that approach.

    You don't like Arnold, I don't like Newman. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You claim that Arnold can't weave the Bond theme into his scores and I proved that he could.

    Post of the day.

    There are enough people on this thread, myself included, who are not convinced of this after listening to 11 years of his work on Bond. I just heard regurgitation, and not incorporation and finessing. Even George Martin and Bill Conti did a far better job of weaving the theme into their own compositions in their respective one shot endeavors.

    Arnold just wasn't good enough for many of us. Music is, as @Gustav_Graves said, a matter of taste, and while there is universal praise for Barry, there isn't for Arnold. The recent Soundtrack Elimination Game proved it yet again. As I've said, he was not, for the most part, worthy of this high stakes job.

    I'd rather EON shake it up post-Newman and go with someone else (even if it's a change for every movie) than go back to Arnold.

    I personally preferred every new composer they've brought on (including the legendary Marvin Hamlisch) to David Arnold's entire body of work for James Bond, except of QoS. There were far more memorable action scores in other movies during his Bond tenure, and that was particularly disappointing for me, when the franchise set the standard for so many years.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I agree that all the other non-Barry composers did a pretty good job, apart from Serra, who delivered hands down the worst score.

    I prefer Arnold to Newman, but am not bowled over by either of them.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 2,898
    Actually, I'm going to cut Newman some slack here, now I realise he did the Shawshank Redemption score, which is superb, particularly the end scene and credits.

    Why didn't we hear any of this in SF, instead of the mostly bland stuff he churned out? At least I know he has it in him now to pull out a decent tune, I hope he turns it around for SP.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Murdock wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    You can post as many examples of Arnold era Brosnan as you like, he has nowhere the skill that Barry had in weaving the JB theme in and out of the score.

    Look you are satisfied with a tribute Bond act, to me Brosnan fans just like his films because they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, every cliche thrown at the screen in order to convince you that you are watching a Bond film and for me Arnold was a big part of that.

    Yeah, I never debated that Arnold is better than Barry. I was pointing out that Arnold weaves the Bond theme into his score. Which you kept claiming he just played the same Bond theme over and over again.

    And for your information, I like Brosnan's films because they introduced me to the damn Franchise. I'm not one of those Bond fans who clamor for super serious grittyness and realism. I like Brosnan's films because they entertain me and make me happy. I enjoy all the Bond films and the actors. Though I don't like all the soundtracks. I don't like the scores to Dr. No, TSWLM or Skyfall. Sorry I want someone better than Newman. I like Arnold's music better. I think he's a Better Bond composer. I'll happily take Barry Homages and pastiches over bland theme-less unmemorable tunes that put me to sleep as I try to remember what they sounded like.

    I want my Bond music to have Ooompf and Class not Newman's been there done that approach.

    You don't like Arnold, I don't like Newman. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You claim that Arnold can't weave the Bond theme into his scores and I proved that he could.

    I think if you look at my posts you'll see I'm no Newman fan boy I was mostly underwhelmed by his score for SF and would have probably preferred Arnold to do it in hindsight but I only think that DA has come into his own with CR and QOS.

    I'm just not impressed with much after TLD, fine you like Brosnan, I don't. I actually think Arnold would probably have produced his best Bond score if he'd done SP after the promise he showed with QOS but the Brosnan scores are just pastiches or techno beats to me. He actually started to show some restraint by CR and then produced his best Bond score with QOS.

    Arnold at the moment is a better Bond composer but then again he's had 5 Bond scores to proves it and some would say that to them he hasn't proved nothing. I'm neither a Arnold hater or a fan boy, I'm kind of not convinced on the whole, he's had his moments though.

    Barry was just too damn good at this for a bunch lowly pretenders to take up the baton but while EON have upped in many departments they seem to accept hired hands like Davey boy or the directors choice. I hope that the directors going forward aren't just allowed to impose the composer of their choice like Mendes has been able to.

    Anyway Newman has another chance to impress us but if I was going for any factor of SP that is going to be underwhelming then the score would be no. 1

    So I am neither damning Arnold or promoting Newman but I just don't want the JB theme for the sake of it. I think Arnold did his best weaving in the CR score when he couldn't use the JB theme but it was there only subtle but he also created a great theme with the YKMN instrumental, pity he couldn't use it again, maybe he'll get a chance before DC's era plays out.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Bond music needs to be Bold and memorable not vanilla. That's all I'm saying.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    You can post as many examples of Arnold era Brosnan as you like, he has nowhere the skill that Barry had in weaving the JB theme in and out of the score.

    Look you are satisfied with a tribute Bond act, to me Brosnan fans just like his films because they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, every cliche thrown at the screen in order to convince you that you are watching a Bond film and for me Arnold was a big part of that.

    Yeah, I never debated that Arnold is better than Barry. I was pointing out that Arnold weaves the Bond theme into his score. Which you kept claiming he just played the same Bond theme over and over again.

    And for your information, I like Brosnan's films because they introduced me to the damn Franchise. I'm not one of those Bond fans who clamor for super serious grittyness and realism. I like Brosnan's films because they entertain me and make me happy. I enjoy all the Bond films and the actors. Though I don't like all the soundtracks. I don't like the scores to Dr. No, TSWLM or Skyfall. Sorry I want someone better than Newman. I like Arnold's music better. I think he's a Better Bond composer. I'll happily take Barry Homages and pastiches over bland theme-less unmemorable tunes that put me to sleep as I try to remember what they sounded like.

    I want my Bond music to have Ooompf and Class not Newman's been there done that approach.

    You don't like Arnold, I don't like Newman. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You claim that Arnold can't weave the Bond theme into his scores and I proved that he could.

    I think if you look at my posts you'll see I'm no Newman fan boy I was mostly underwhelmed by his score for SF and would have probably preferred Arnold to do it in hindsight but I only think that DA has come into his own with CR and QOS.

    I'm just not impressed with much after TLD, fine you like Brosnan, I don't. I actually think Arnold would probably have produced his best Bond score if he'd done SP after the promise he showed with QOS but the Brosnan scores are just pastiches or techno beats to me. He actually started to show some restraint by CR and then produced his best Bond score with QOS.

    Arnold at the moment is a better Bond composer but then again he's had 5 Bond scores to proves it and some would say that to them he hasn't proved nothing. I'm neither a Arnold hater or a fan boy, I'm kind of not convinced on the whole, he's had his moments though.

    Barry was just too damn good at this for a bunch lowly pretenders to take up the baton but while EON have upped in many departments they seem to accept hired hands like Davey boy or the directors choice. I hope that the directors going forward aren't just allowed to impose the composer of their choice like Mendes has been able to.

    Anyway Newman has another chance to impress us but if I was going for any factor of SP that is going to be underwhelming then the score would be no. 1

    So I am neither damning Arnold or promoting Newman but I just don't want the JB theme for the sake of it. I think Arnold did his best weaving in the CR score when he couldn't use the JB theme but it was there only subtle but he also created a great theme with the YKMN instrumental, pity he couldn't use it again, maybe he'll get a chance before DC's era plays out.

    Just listening to the TLD soundtrack. A masterpiece. Why are we even having this debate? No one comes close to Barry. His orchestrations, melodies, themes are incredible.

    Arnold is a pail imitation, although his CR and QoS scores really showed significant signs of improvement. Newman is a nonentity when you compare him to Barry - he just brings zilch to the table. Sorry to offend the Newman fans, but he's a complete nonentity compared to Barry.
  • Posts: 2,898
    Getafix wrote: »
    Newman is a nonentity when you compare him to Barry - he just brings zilch to the table. Sorry to offend the Newman fans, but he's a complete nonentity compared to Barry.

    Newman is also a bit of a nonentity when compared to Arnold too, IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Newman is a nonentity when you compare him to Barry - he just brings zilch to the table. Sorry to offend the Newman fans, but he's a complete nonentity compared to Barry.

    Newman is also a bit of a nonentity when compared to Arnold too, IMO.

    On this I disagree. I think it's too early to write him off after only one critically acclaimed and underivative shot.

    I have no problem with those wanting someone other than Newman post-SP but I don't agree with those holding up Arnold as that choice. He had his 5. He improved, but like Brosnan, to me, it was a case of too little, too late. The majority of his 5 remain sub-standard to me and that is not on.

    Time for something, and someone, new post-Newman imho.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,119
    Well, I will always be a lone voice in the desert when it comes to Newman's score for SF :-).

    --> 1 Grammy win
    --> 1 BAFTA win
    --> 1 ASCAP Film Music Award win
    --> 1 International Film Music Critics Award win
    --> 1 BMI Film Music Award win
    --> 1 Indiana Film Journalists Association Award win
    --> 1 Oscar nomination

    It's all rubbish, and doesn't tell us anything about the tiniest bit of love for the score outside this MI6-forum :-).
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Where's John Barry's awards for his Bond scores?
  • Posts: 11,119
    Murdock wrote: »
    Where's John Barry's awards for his Bond scores?

    Where are the sincere, respectful and grateful congratulations towards Thomas Newman about the SF score :-)?

  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Murdock wrote: »
    Where's John Barry's awards for his Bond scores?

    Where are the sincere, respectful and grateful congratulations towards Thomas Newman about the SF score :-)?
    Having awards doesn't make one immune to criticism.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Murdock wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Where's John Barry's awards for his Bond scores?

    Where are the sincere, respectful and grateful congratulations towards Thomas Newman about the SF score :-)?
    Having awards doesn't make one immune to criticism.

    Did I say that? Or imply that? I don't think so...
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 2,898
    Murdock wrote: »
    Where's John Barry's awards for his Bond scores?

    Where are the sincere, respectful and grateful congratulations towards Thomas Newman about the SF score :-)?
    If awards meant anything, then Barry would have received several Oscars for his Bond tracks. As it is, he was snubbed for all his efforts throughout his entire Bond reign, yet Newman on just one Bond film, has received far more nominations and awards than Barry ever did for Bond.

    So if awards really stood for the quality of the composer and his music, then this means Newman's score for SF is far superior to anything Barry ever wrote for Bond.

    Yet we all know this isn't true in a million years, which is why we can easily disregard these meaningless awards because they mean absolutely nothing, other than a goodwill gesture on a film which was received well by critics, and an inevitable but well-deserved acknowledged nod to a 50 year old franchise of cinema.

    If you think otherwise, and believe Newman really deserved to bag all the awards he did compared to John Barry's unappreciated efforts, then I think you are deluded.

  • Posts: 1,552
    Barry has won 4 Oscars, and been nominated for 2 more. Unfortunately not for a Bond film though.

    2 of his Bond songs were nominated for Golden Globes, AVTAK & FRWL. He's won 1 GG for a non-Bond score and been nominated for 9 more.

    He won a BMI Film & TV Award for TLD. Was nominated for a Grammy for GF and won a Lifetime Achievement Award at the World Soundtrack Awards.

    He's not exactly been snubbed.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 2,898
    JCRendle wrote: »
    Barry has won 4 Oscars, and been nominated for 2 more. Unfortunately not for a Bond film though.

    2 of his Bond songs were nominated for Golden Globes, AVTAK & FRWL. He's won 1 GG for a non-Bond score and been nominated for 9 more.

    He won a BMI Film & TV Award for TLD. Was nominated for a Grammy for GF and won a Lifetime Achievement Award at the World Soundtrack Awards.

    He's not exactly been snubbed.

    You didn't read what I wrote. I said snubbed for a Bond film. All the nominations you listed for Bond, spanning over 20 years and countless movies is nothing short of embarrassing and disgraceful, when compared to what dross Newman served up and was then subsequently awarded for SF.

    8-|
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,534
    @chrisisall, I mean Thomas Newman, has been nominated for 12 Oscars but never won any. I didn't know that, I just looked on imdb.
  • Posts: 2,898
    @chrisisall, I mean Thomas Newman, has been nominated for 12 Oscars but never won any. I didn't know that, I just looked on imdb.

    He certainly shouldn't have received a nomination for SF. That is just laughable.

  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    The fact that OHMSS has never been at least nominated for the best score is simply scandalous.
  • Posts: 2,898
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Newman is a nonentity when you compare him to Barry - he just brings zilch to the table. Sorry to offend the Newman fans, but he's a complete nonentity compared to Barry.

    Newman is also a bit of a nonentity when compared to Arnold too, IMO.

    On this I disagree. I think it's too early to write him off after only one critically acclaimed and underivative shot.

    I have no problem with those wanting someone other than Newman post-SP but I don't agree with those holding up Arnold as that choice. He had his 5. He improved, but like Brosnan, to me, it was a case of too little, too late. The majority of his 5 remain sub-standard to me and that is not on.

    Time for something, and someone, new post-Newman imho.

    I agree about the Brosnan films, but I felt Arnold really came into his own with CR and QoS, which for most part were up there with the best of the Bond soundtracks.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Awards are very much politically driven. To my understanding. Barry was anything but political and was known to speak his mind. Maybe they had something against EON or Cubby. Who knows. It's disgraceful how little recognition Barry received for Bond though.
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