Music in SPECTRE

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  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bond music needs to be loud and in your face. Not subtle and in the background.

    I think some of both has always worked for me personally. Off the top of my head I think AVTAK and TLD are decent examples.

    Those work because the melodies were memorable.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Craigs bond is more subtle. Newmans score in SF was perfect IMO.
  • Posts: 12,436
    Murdock wrote: »
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Bond music needs to be loud and in your face. Not subtle and in the background.

    I think some of both has always worked for me personally. Off the top of my head I think AVTAK and TLD are decent examples.

    Those work because the melodies were memorable.

    Absolutely! I find that the Bond scores that resonate with me more have the melody dotted throughout the film where appropriate?
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    I've always mentioned that in the Barry era, that music was a character in the film itself. It follows Bond where he goes and helps tell his story. I never felt that with Skyfall.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I agree that Bond music s/b loud & brassy. However, it should never be harsh. It should have finesse. Barry was a master at both. Arnold was loud but harsh & lacking in subtle finesse for the most part (to my ears), particularly in the action scoring. Newman has the finesse but he needs more oomph. He seems too timid. Barry set the bar very high....maybe too high.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    I think Michael Giacchino would be perfect for Bond. His score for the Incredible's was a Barry score without Barry himself.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Agreed @Murdock. The Incredibles score was outstanding to me. I'd even call it incredible :)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,534
    Giacchino would be awesome.

    I'd like to suggest Antonio Pinto for a future outing









    But as @bondjames said, Newman certainly has more finesse than Arnold, he just needs to be more 'loud and in your face' in SPECTRE. But if his SF soundtrack was him getting his marks, I am very excited to see what he has in store for SPECTRE.
  • Posts: 11,425
    But Arnold wrote better themes IMo.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Getafix wrote: »
    But Arnold wrote better themes IMo.

    Agreed.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,534
    IMO I can easily listen to Arnold's soundtracks on the own, while SF's score I am unable to do that. That's what I want from Bond score, it should work like a charm while watching the film and be endlessly listenable on it's own. That's why Barry was a genius, no matter how many times I listen to OHMSS or TLD soundtrack, I am still moved by the tracks when I rewatch the respective films.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I agree about Barry @DaltonCraig007. I can never tire of his scores and I've had them on rotation in my car for years. Timeless. Almost classical in nature to my ears (and I admit to knowing little about classical music). When I watch the movies again I too am still moved by the tracks.

    I don't have the SF soundtrack and have no interest in buying it although it sounds good enough when watching the movie, and there are some fine cues, if not enough of them.

    I do have some of Arnold's soundtracks for Bond, but don't listen to them much. Personally I was never all that impressed with him. Just seemed to be trying too hard and inferior to Barry imho. QoS is the one I like the most.

    I remember liking bits of the Lord of War music when I saw the movie many years ago. I especially liked the track called Rahman which I have on a Cafe Del Mar CD.

    Personally I love some of what Henry Jackman and Matthew Margeson have come up with for Kingsman (not all of it though). Some is very Bondesque to me although there's also a lot of standard superhero stuff as well. Jackman did something similar for Winter Soldier in parts (when Jackson's character was being attacked in his car in that film the whole thing seemed very Bond like)

    As @Gustav_Graves posted in the Kingsman thread, this track is my favourite:



    This reminds me a lot of the start of the gypsy fight scene in FRWL



    This one is really good imho, especially how it builds to about 1:26 to about 1:45

  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Barry was in a class of his own. TLD is a final masterpiece. Pretty much anyone pales in comparison. But I do think we should be expecting more than Arnold or Newman have given us. Arnold gave us Barry homages, which were inferior, although sometimes memorable. It seemed to suit the Brosnan greatest hits approach. He upped his game in the Craig era and gave us two above average scores. Newman gave us Fifty Shades of Dull, but at least didn't completely blow it like Serra.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think it's only fair to give Newman a 2nd chance, as he did rather well on his freshman outing, apparently with a reduced budget for orchestra (they were relatively tight with the SF budget after blowing money with QoS).

    Since they're spending an alleged $300m this time, I'm sure Newman will have money to give us a suitable sophomore tribute to Barry, but only if he's forced to do so by EON and Mendes.

    He's a pretty creative guy from what I know, so he can do wonders if he puts his mind to it.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Can any one point me to a wonderful Newman score? I've searched but cannot find anything that stands out for me, apart perhaps from American Beauty.

    I I know there are lots of people on here who don't like him but the number of times I come out of a film to look up who did the great score and I discover it's Hans Zimmer is crazy. He's way better than Newman IMO, and a keen collaborator with other artists.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    edited March 2015 Posts: 16,184
    I think Zimmer is worse than Newman. Aside from his score for Black Rain, everything else sounds the same but tweaked for every other score he does.

    I'd like to see Alan Silvestri try his hands at a Bond score.
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    IMO I can easily listen to Arnold's soundtracks on the own, while SF's score I am unable to do that. That's what I want from Bond score, it should work like a charm while watching the film and be endlessly listenable on it's own.

    I completely agree.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Although just playing the JB theme lots is not just the answer like some seem to be suggesting.

    If he uses it needs to be weaved in and out of score.

    Maybe if you were satisfied with Brosnan as Bond that will do but some of us require some more imagination than that.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,534
    Mind you, I thnk Newman's SF score works very well in the film, but for me it just doesn't work on it's own like the Barry soundtracks.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Mind you, I thnk Newman's SF score works very well in the film, but for me it just doesn't work on it's own like the Barry soundtracks.

    It's serviceable. In any other popcorn film I'd say it was fine. But as a Bond score I think it's a fail.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote: »
    I think Zimmer is worse than Newman. Aside from his score for Black Rain, everything else sounds the same but tweaked for every other score he does.

    I'd like to see Alan Silvestri try his hands at a Bond score.

    Really? I think Zimmer's Gladiator score is a classic. And I was very impressed by his score for 12 Years a Slave - again, I had no idea it was him until the credits came up, but was enjoying it the entire way through the movie.

    I don't understand the stick Zimmer gets here. Not saying he's necessarily suited to Bond, but he seems infinitely more adaptable than Newman.

    Silvestri might be interesting. Heck, there are a lot of talented people out there. Why Newman? It feels a bit like the Purvis and Wade situation (although not as bad). We get stuck with these guys who clearly are not up to the standard set by the Bond greats, but keep on getting re-hired. Frustrating when you just know that things could be so much better.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Although just playing the JB theme lots is not just the answer like some seem to be suggesting.

    If he uses it needs to be weaved in and out of score.

    Maybe if you were satisfied with Brosnan as Bond that will do but some of us require some more imagination than that.

    Arnold never played the Bond theme over and over like you describe. He always wove it into tracks and played it where Bond did something amazing.






  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,534
    From 1962 to 2002 there were a lot of cliches reaccuring in the Bond films. The Bond theme is not one of them IMO. Its one of the most recognisable theme song in cinematic history, and should be played when Bond does something badass.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    edited March 2015 Posts: 16,184
    From 1962 to 2002 there were a lot of cliches reaccuring in the Bond films. The Bond theme is not one of them IMO. Its one of the most recognisable theme song in cinematic history, and should be played when Bond does something badass.

    Exactly. Newman was forced to use it and even some of Arnold's CR Bond theme was recycled into Skyfall when the DB5 is revealed and during the End credits. I wonder why that was. :-?

    I don't need Bond theme for everything James does. But it should be dominant during Action scenes.

  • Posts: 11,425
    Murdock wrote: »
    From 1962 to 2002 there were a lot of cliches reaccuring in the Bond films. The Bond theme is not one of them IMO. Its one of the most recognisable theme song in cinematic history, and should be played when Bond does something badass.

    Exactly. Newman was forced to use it and even some of Arnold's CR Bond theme was recycled into Skyfall when the DB5 is revealed and during the End credits. I wonder why that was. :-?

    I don't need Bond theme for everything James does. But it should be dominant during Action scenes.

    I don't think it should be seen as automatic for an action Scene. I would like it woven in more organically with other themes and motifs.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    From 1962 to 2002 there were a lot of cliches reaccuring in the Bond films. The Bond theme is not one of them IMO. Its one of the most recognisable theme song in cinematic history, and should be played when Bond does something badass.

    Exactly. Newman was forced to use it and even some of Arnold's CR Bond theme was recycled into Skyfall when the DB5 is revealed and during the End credits. I wonder why that was. :-?

    I don't need Bond theme for everything James does. But it should be dominant during Action scenes.

    I don't think it should be seen as automatic for an action Scene. I would like it woven in more organically with other themes and motifs.

    I'm more in agreement with this. To my ears, Arnold use of the Bond theme was a step back to early Barry, before he refined his Bondian touch. As I've say before, from TB onwards Barry incorporated the Bond tune very delicately into movie specific motifs and themes, and it was a joy to hear what he came up with each time.

    There was an element of refinement to my ears. It always felt like an entire new composition. That's what I want to hear more of. It takes real talent to do that. It reminds me of an artist in a concert ad libbing his signature tune. It's always new and interesting and different from the album cut.

    Let's not be too hard on Newman until we hear SP. If the budget constraints for SF are true, it's likely that they chose to use Arnold's perfectly good Bond theme composition rather than re-record it. The fact that it was used in limited fashion is not a Newman only issue. It was limited in CR & QoS, so like the gunbarrel, there could be other reasons for the limited use to date in Craig's era.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Murdock wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Although just playing the JB theme lots is not just the answer like some seem to be suggesting.

    If he uses it needs to be weaved in and out of score.

    Maybe if you were satisfied with Brosnan as Bond that will do but some of us require some more imagination than that.

    Arnold never played the Bond theme over and over like you describe. He always wove it into tracks and played it where Bond did something amazing.







    You can post as many examples of Arnold era Brosnan as you like, he has nowhere the skill that Barry had in weaving the JB theme in and out of the score.

    Look you are satisfied with a tribute Bond act, to me Brosnan fans just like his films because they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, every cliche thrown at the screen in order to convince you that you are watching a Bond film and for me Arnold was a big part of that.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,184
    Shardlake wrote: »
    You can post as many examples of Arnold era Brosnan as you like, he has nowhere the skill that Barry had in weaving the JB theme in and out of the score.

    Look you are satisfied with a tribute Bond act, to me Brosnan fans just like his films because they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, every cliche thrown at the screen in order to convince you that you are watching a Bond film and for me Arnold was a big part of that.

    Yeah, I never debated that Arnold is better than Barry. I was pointing out that Arnold weaves the Bond theme into his score. Which you kept claiming he just played the same Bond theme over and over again.

    And for your information, I like Brosnan's films because they introduced me to the damn Franchise. I'm not one of those Bond fans who clamor for super serious grittyness and realism. I like Brosnan's films because they entertain me and make me happy. I enjoy all the Bond films and the actors. Though I don't like all the soundtracks. I don't like the scores to Dr. No, TSWLM or Skyfall. Sorry I want someone better than Newman. I like Arnold's music better. I think he's a Better Bond composer. I'll happily take Barry Homages and pastiches over bland theme-less unmemorable tunes that put me to sleep as I try to remember what they sounded like.

    I want my Bond music to have Ooompf and Class not Newman's been there done that approach.

    You don't like Arnold, I don't like Newman. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You claim that Arnold can't weave the Bond theme into his scores and I proved that he could.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,119
    Getafix wrote: »
    Can any one point me to a wonderful Newman score? I've searched but cannot find anything that stands out for me, apart perhaps from American Beauty.

    This is called "taste". I wanna bet that, especially outside this topic, or this forum, the lovers for many Thomas Newman scores are boundless. The fact is: Most Bond fans want an action-packed score, without complexities, but with the John Barry-esque melody. And because Newman's portfolio so far mostly includes romantic, emotional pieces of music, many Bond fans don't like it. I try to be an open-minded Bond fan, and because I think the emotional drama and personal backgrounds of characters in the Craig-films are highlighted extensively, Thomas Newman really is the man to pull that off.

    Anyway, time for some education:

    "Little Children" (for the lovers of classical music):


    "Wall-E" (mysterious, spy-esque):


    "The Iron Lady" (actually, quite comparable to tracks from "Skyfall"):


    "Revolutionary Road" (emotional theme):


    "Towelhead" (oriental score):


    "Cinderella Man" (John Barry & Thomas Newman: masters of romantic scores):


    "Skyfall" (my favourite track from "Skyfall". And then from 4:00 min onwards. This "heartbeat" rhytmn with drums. F-ing tense!!! I counted 23 of those "heartbeats". A bloody good example where repetitiveness actually works!):


    And an example of why I like Thomas Newman. I have a feeling he manages to add a John Barry-esque crispness to the strings in his score. At least rhythmically I find them better, more consistent, than the string parts from many of David Arnold's scores:


    One more time: I think "personal taste" is the driving force in here when discussing Thomas Newman's wunderful portfolio.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    @Gustav_Graves, funny you choose chose words, as I find Newman's scores emotionless - quite detached. I can see how they suit a certain type of movie, but he doesn't seem to have much range. I've seen most of these movies and the scores are completely forgettable. Wall-E? Nice animation but the score made absolute no impact whatsoever. I appreciate that some people see that as a sign of 'sophistication' or 'subtlety'. You call it 'taste'. I just call it forgettable.

    John Barry wipes the floor with someone line Newman, who essentially inherited a job in the family firm. Barry got to the top through sheer talent, not family contacts. Do you really think someone with Newman's very average talent would have made it if it wasn't for his name?
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