Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 12,243
    Not really sure what this opinion is getting at. How would you replace the film's first act, if not by giving Bond's character more exposition and setting up what comes in the second act? You also lose the early scenes with Le Chiffre and seeing how all the characters are set up in the story.
  • Controversial opinion.

    The entire first act of CR adds nothing to the film.

    I would say the first act adds very little to the film. I've often thought if you wanted to do your own homemade edit of CR, you could splice the end of the opening titles into the train ride with Vesper and have a much more potent, more streamlined film. There would be a couple brief scenes I'd miss in there, but you'd get rid of a lot of drag.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Controversial opinion.

    The entire first act of CR adds nothing to the film.

    I would say the first act adds very little to the film. I've often thought if you wanted to do your own homemade edit of CR, you could splice the end of the opening titles into the train ride with Vesper and have a much more potent, more streamlined film. There would be a couple brief scenes I'd miss in there, but you'd get rid of a lot of drag.
    To some extent I agree. I did like the Bahamas scenes very much though. I think the SUV keys sequence, the card game & the seduction of Solange were all quite helpful in establishing this new Bond as more of a throwback (character wise) to the Bonds of old than his immediate predecessor. There was a familiarity there which ingratiated him to me.
  • Posts: 676
    I love all the stuff in the Bahamas, though, regardless of what it might add to the plot.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Controversial opinion.

    The entire first act of CR adds nothing to the film.

    I would say the first act adds very little to the film. I've often thought if you wanted to do your own homemade edit of CR, you could splice the end of the opening titles into the train ride with Vesper and have a much more potent, more streamlined film. There would be a couple brief scenes I'd miss in there, but you'd get rid of a lot of drag.
    To some extent I agree. I did like the Bahamas scenes very much though. I think the SUV keys sequence, the card game & the seduction of Solange were all quite helpful in establishing this new Bond as more of a throwback (character wise) to the Bonds of old than his immediate predecessor. There was a familiarity there which ingratiated him to me.

    They also ooze Fleming. A little indulgence and time spent building atmosphere. Nothing about Fleming was streamlined. He went to great effort to coax the reader in, without it being over as quickly as possible as some seem to require.
  • The early scenes in CR were useful in characterizing Craig's Bond, but they did little in serving the story. I think it's a case of a material/characterization that perhaps could have been condensed into fewer scenes, as with the Bond and Vesper falling in love set of scenes toward the end.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 7,975
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Not really sure what this opinion is getting at. How would you replace the film's first act, if not by giving Bond's character more exposition and setting up what comes in the second act? You also lose the early scenes with Le Chiffre and seeing how all the characters are set up in the story.

    That's true, the scenes with Le Chiffre were good.

    I guess I just don't agree that anything in the first act sets up anything that happens latter. Well, except for those couple of short scenes with Le Chiffre.

    When you boil it down, the first third of the film equates to this - Bond foils Le Chiffre's plan. We see all that play out in the Miami section, so it makes what comes before kinda redundant.

    If you're asking what I would replace it with, my answer would be set up which better matches up with what transpires later on in the film. Once Bond meets Vesper, the whole subplot about him being fresh in the field is basically dropped. As far as she is concerned, he's a functioning agent like any other she might be chosen to work with. Bond's true arc in this film has nothing to do with him being a fresh 00 agent, that was just something they added to make a splash in the media, and shake up the snow globe so to speak. The real arc is how someone who has no problem being emotionally detached ends up fall in love, and how it turns his world upside down. That's the kernel of the story, the part people can relate too. Bond was happy until he was with Vesper, and yet something about her made him want to quit it all. That's the part that needed exploring more in depth. Instead, we have endless scenes about whether or not M can trust Bond or not, which ultimately doesn't leave an impact.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 7,975
    RC7 wrote: »

    Nothing about Fleming was streamlined.

    Where do you get that idea? CR was a pamphlet. There might well be more pages to the script than the book itself.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 12,243
    I respect your opinions, but I personally disagree with saying M's trust issues of Bond don't have impact. It was something that wasn't touched on much in previous Bond films, so it's a unique relationship in CR. It shows a Bond less liked by his office and more isolated than ever. I think the M/Bond dynamic of CR is good and is a big part of what help gives Craig's Bond a unique identity and position compared to the actors before him.
  • Posts: 14,800
    peter wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Roger Moore, in TMWTGG, is a layered performance; everything from him being taken "to school" (showing discomfort and genuine fear), to his first meeting with Scaramanga ("nut?") to his "last supper" with Scaramanga--

    Is this RM's best performance????

    As Bond, I would say it is.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »

    Nothing about Fleming was streamlined.

    Where do you get that idea? CR was a pamphlet. There might well be more pages to the script than the book itself.

    Narratively. By and large he eschewed brevity in favour of a little embellishment and indulgence.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 7,975
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »

    Nothing about Fleming was streamlined.

    Where do you get that idea? CR was a pamphlet. There might well be more pages to the script than the book itself.

    Narratively. By and large he eschewed brevity in favour of a little embellishment and indulgence.

    If Fleming can eschew brevity and still write something using roughly as many words as a Agatha Christie whodunnit, then EON should be able to produce something that manages to eschews brevity without including copious amounts of filler. Pretty much all of the psychoanalysing by Dench in this film could have been portrayed through her tone of voice and through her facial expressions during a M scene, just like the other films.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,948
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »

    Nothing about Fleming was streamlined.

    Where do you get that idea? CR was a pamphlet. There might well be more pages to the script than the book itself.

    Narratively. By and large he eschewed brevity in favour of a little embellishment and indulgence.

    If Fleming can eschew brevity and still write something using roughly as many words as a Agatha Christie whodunnit, then EON should be able to produce something that manages to eschews brevity without including copious amounts of filler. Pretty much all of the psychoanalysing by Dench in this film could have been portrayed through her tone of voice and through her facial expressions during a M scene, just like the other films.

    How would we know what kind of blunt instrument Bond is, and how emotionally detached he can treat women (solange, allthough you can see he isn't that detached when he sees her body) without the first part? It's because of that we know he's willing to risk live and limb for the mission (the amazing crane-jumping chase) and set aside his own pleasures (champagne for one) to get the job done. Because of the first act we know who he already is, nad what he still has to learn (i'll shoot the camera first next time, half monk half hitman). It isn't about trust-issues, it's about learning the job. And yes, in intelligence, trust is a part of that. The whole latter love story, and mission story, rely on this.
    It's nuts, I know.

    Auch.

    Sorry, couldn't resist a joke that would go balls up.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 676
    Alessandro Cremona as Marco Sciarra gives a far more compelling and entertaining performance than Waltz does as Brofeld.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,260
    not controversial @Milovy -- but sooooo correct!
  • June 2017 comments

    1) Judi Dench is the worst thing to happen to the Bond series

    2) The time has come for the Broccoli's/Wilson's to leave the franchise - they've simply run out of steam and good ideas

    3) Goldfinger sees Bond, the character, at his worst - he spends the majority of the movie as prisoner!

    4) For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is better than Spectre Blofeld - such a wasted opportunity and very rushed (see point 2)

    5) Octopussy is the most serious and tense Bond movie of the series - the whole Germany sequence is exquisitively tense!

    6) With each new Craig film, Die Another Day gets better and better

    7) The emotional, Bourne elements of the Craig era will eventually kill the franchise. Has been done to death now
  • Posts: 6,728
    I would be very wary of someone else taking over the Bond franchise from Broccoli/Wilson.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    June 2017 comments

    1) Judi Dench is the worst thing to happen to the Bond series

    2) The time has come for the Broccoli's/Wilson's to leave the franchise - they've simply run out of steam and good ideas

    3) Goldfinger sees Bond, the character, at his worst - he spends the majority of the movie as prisoner!

    4) For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is better than Spectre Blofeld - such a wasted opportunity and very rushed (see point 2)

    5) Octopussy is the most serious and tense Bond movie of the series - the whole Germany sequence is exquisitively tense!

    6) With each new Craig film, Die Another Day gets better and better

    7) The emotional, Bourne elements of the Craig era will eventually kill the franchise. Has been done to death now

    Agreed with everything except 1 and 2. Though, with regards to point 2, I do wonder sometimes.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,586
    June 2017 comments

    1) Judi Dench is the worst thing to happen to the Bond series

    2) The time has come for the Broccoli's/Wilson's to leave the franchise - they've simply run out of steam and good ideas

    3) Goldfinger sees Bond, the character, at his worst - he spends the majority of the movie as prisoner!

    4) For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is better than Spectre Blofeld - such a wasted opportunity and very rushed (see point 2)

    5) Octopussy is the most serious and tense Bond movie of the series - the whole Germany sequence is exquisitively tense!

    6) With each new Craig film, Die Another Day gets better and better

    7) The emotional, Bourne elements of the Craig era will eventually kill the franchise. Has been done to death now

    I can't say I agree with any of these. 1, 2, and 4 are ludicrous, in my view.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    June 2017 comments

    1) Judi Dench is the worst thing to happen to the Bond series

    2) The time has come for the Broccoli's/Wilson's to leave the franchise - they've simply run out of steam and good ideas

    3) Goldfinger sees Bond, the character, at his worst - he spends the majority of the movie as prisoner!

    4) For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is better than Spectre Blofeld - such a wasted opportunity and very rushed (see point 2)

    5) Octopussy is the most serious and tense Bond movie of the series - the whole Germany sequence is exquisitively tense!

    6) With each new Craig film, Die Another Day gets better and better

    7) The emotional, Bourne elements of the Craig era will eventually kill the franchise. Has been done to death now

    This is the 'controversial opinions' thread. You're looking for the 'Broadmoor potentials' thread.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    June 2017 comments

    1) Judi Dench is the worst thing to happen to the Bond series

    2) The time has come for the Broccoli's/Wilson's to leave the franchise - they've simply run out of steam and good ideas

    3) Goldfinger sees Bond, the character, at his worst - he spends the majority of the movie as prisoner!

    4) For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is better than Spectre Blofeld - such a wasted opportunity and very rushed (see point 2)

    5) Octopussy is the most serious and tense Bond movie of the series - the whole Germany sequence is exquisitively tense!

    6) With each new Craig film, Die Another Day gets better and better

    7) The emotional, Bourne elements of the Craig era will eventually kill the franchise. Has been done to death now
    Very controversial indeed. I'm not sure if I agree, but I understand your overall perspective. They probably need to consider a new approach to things, and I think they will.
  • RC7 wrote: »
    June 2017 comments

    1) Judi Dench is the worst thing to happen to the Bond series

    2) The time has come for the Broccoli's/Wilson's to leave the franchise - they've simply run out of steam and good ideas

    3) Goldfinger sees Bond, the character, at his worst - he spends the majority of the movie as prisoner!

    4) For Your Eyes Only Blofeld is better than Spectre Blofeld - such a wasted opportunity and very rushed (see point 2)

    5) Octopussy is the most serious and tense Bond movie of the series - the whole Germany sequence is exquisitively tense!

    6) With each new Craig film, Die Another Day gets better and better

    7) The emotional, Bourne elements of the Craig era will eventually kill the franchise. Has been done to death now

    This is the 'controversial opinions' thread. You're looking for the 'Broadmoor potentials' thread.

    Haha brilliant comment that RC7
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Not really sure what this opinion is getting at. How would you replace the film's first act, if not by giving Bond's character more exposition and setting up what comes in the second act? You also lose the early scenes with Le Chiffre and seeing how all the characters are set up in the story.

    That's true, the scenes with Le Chiffre were good.

    I guess I just don't agree that anything in the first act sets up anything that happens latter. Well, except for those couple of short scenes with Le Chiffre.

    When you boil it down, the first third of the film equates to this - Bond foils Le Chiffre's plan. We see all that play out in the Miami section, so it makes what comes before kinda redundant.

    If you're asking what I would replace it with, my answer would be set up which better matches up with what transpires later on in the film. Once Bond meets Vesper, the whole subplot about him being fresh in the field is basically dropped.

    Not really. The mistakes he makes with Vesper are because he's a rookie agent.

  • Roger Moore would have been perfect and the best fit for On Her Majesty's Secret Service
  • Posts: 14,800
    Roger Moore would have been perfect and the best fit for On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    I don't know if he would have been perfect, but I'd agree that he would have been very good.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Roger Moore would have been perfect and the best fit for On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    I think a young Craig would have been perfect for that. Not in 1969 obviously.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,948
    Roger Moore would have been perfect and the best fit for On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    Interesting thought. I think you're right. Moore was a far better actor then he gave himself credit for.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Roger Moore would have been perfect and the best fit for On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    Interesting thought. I think you're right. Moore was a far better actor then he gave himself credit for.
    I always thought Moore could have nailed OHMSS as well. The only problem could have been the physicality, but he moved much better when younger (and on the Saint).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2017 Posts: 5,921
    The MR soundtrack is easily Barry's worst, just lacking in energy.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    echo wrote: »
    The MR soundtrack is easily Barry's worst, just lacking in energy.

    You came to the right thread! It's quite the opposite to me, gives the movies a sense of wonder and scale
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