Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 15,801
    I have to admit I'm a little sweet on Kara. She can be a bit daft, sure, but I chalk it up to her being an ingenue artiste in over her head, as a "normal" girl would be in those kinds of crazy situations. Yes, she nearly crashes her and Bond into a cliffside and yes, she could've helped more in the Afghan prison escape, but she makes up for it in moments where she quite endearingly does all she can to get back with Bond and protect him in any way she can. There's shades of Tatiana in her, which is fitting considering that TLD feels in many ways like it's trying to be a more modern FRWL. Bond girl unknowingly in cahoots with main villain? Check. Plot set around divided Cold War nations? Check. Necros is an obvious Grant tribute/rehash, and of we get a retread of a FRWL-like plot where Russians and Brits are manipulated into axing each other by a third party profiting from it.

    I have my issues with Kara, but as I said, they can be explained by her not being ready for what she is facing, just as Tatiana isn't. We can't credibly take her to task for not knowing how to pilot an aircraft or fight defensively, as her entire life has been spent with a cello that uses skill sets entirely divorced from what she's faced with in the film. If she did know how to do that stuff, we would fault the script for randomly giving her those abilities just because the story needed her to do them, and that's even worse; that said, she doesn't do that bad a job at any of what she's asked.

    For my money, Kara remains one of the more fully-formed Bond girls of the series, as we really get to know her in ways we usually don't others. She's never made a sex object or paraded around in a bikini, she's given passions that endear her to Bond (music), and her love of that music is a defining part of her character and overall personality. She comes off as a very real woman to me, someone I could actually run into and not a Venus-like goddess only attained in fantasy. That's also the appeal of Tatiana, and why I love her too.

    She ranks pretty high for me, as far as Bond girls go, looking beyond just looks (though she has those too) and also examining their personality, actions and relevancy in the plot.

    Well said. She's one of my favorites as well.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    edited January 2017 Posts: 3,000
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I guess sales would confirm or disabuse that theory. Remember, there are tons of people my age who don't even know a thing about the world of video games, but we all know the movies.

    I'm really on the fence with this one. On the one hand, you have a hugely popular film franchise, of which Goldeneye is a well known and respected member. It has a good fan-base, and airs on TV regularly. On top of that, the game has no doubt helped the popularity of the film.

    On the other hand, many people in younger generations have little experience with Bond movies. There are many people I know that either have never seen a Bond film, or have only seen one. They often have a low opinion of Bond, thinking of the whole thing as nerdy or cliched. My brother (who is 15 years older than me) has only seen SF and found it disappointing, and a friend of mine has only seen QOS and hated it. Both of them, however, have played and love Goldeneye. Reading discussions about the game online, you find many people who are huge fans of the game, and yet have never seen the movie. Goldeneye N64's popularity extends well outside of the Bond fandom. For those who have seen the film, a common insult leveled against Brosnan within the video game community is that he starred in the only film in history where the game based on it was far superior to the film itself.

    The game sold 8.09 million copies according to Wikipedia, making it the third best selling game on the Nintendo 64, but this doesn't take into account the fact that going over to a friend's house to play 4 player multiplayer was an incredibly popular thing to do. So, many people may have very fond memories of the game, and they might never have even purchased their own copy. That was the case with my brother. Also, downloading pirated copies of old Nintendo 64 games like GE, and running them on your computer is a very popular thing on the internet right now. These copies would not be taken into account in the original sales numbers, and the game has been out of official print for a long time. There is also a free fan-made recreation of the game with updated graphics called Goldeneye: Source, which is a testament to its popularity and yet another thing that wouldn't be counted in sales numbers. Download numbers for the fan game are currently at 173,470 just for the current update of the game (there have been many), and just on one site that hosts the download.

    It's a tough call for me to make, but I'm erring on the side that @TellyBlofeld is right.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    edited January 2017 Posts: 3,000
    Birdleson wrote: »
    "airing"?

    Right. I'm running on only 3 hours of sleep. I'll be surprised if that is my only mistake.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,965
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I have to admit I'm a little sweet on Kara. She can be a bit daft, sure, but I chalk it up to her being an ingenue artiste in over her head, as a "normal" girl would be in those kinds of crazy situations. Yes, she nearly crashes her and Bond into a cliffside and yes, she could've helped more in the Afghan prison escape, but she makes up for it in moments where she quite endearingly does all she can to get back with Bond and protect him in any way she can. There's shades of Tatiana in her, which is fitting considering that TLD feels in many ways like it's trying to be a more modern FRWL. Bond girl unknowingly in cahoots with main villain? Check. Plot set around divided Cold War nations? Check. Necros is an obvious Grant tribute/rehash, and of we get a retread of a FRWL-like plot where Russians and Brits are manipulated into axing each other by a third party profiting from it.

    I have my issues with Kara, but as I said, they can be explained by her not being ready for what she is facing, just as Tatiana isn't. We can't credibly take her to task for not knowing how to pilot an aircraft or fight defensively, as her entire life has been spent with a cello that uses skill sets entirely divorced from what she's faced with in the film. If she did know how to do that stuff, we would fault the script for randomly giving her those abilities just because the story needed her to do them, and that's even worse; that said, she doesn't do that bad a job at any of what she's asked.

    For my money, Kara remains one of the more fully-formed Bond girls of the series, as we really get to know her in ways we usually don't others. She's never made a sex object or paraded around in a bikini, she's given passions that endear her to Bond (music), and her love of that music is a defining part of her character and overall personality. She comes off as a very real woman to me, someone I could actually run into and not a Venus-like goddess only attained in fantasy. That's also the appeal of Tatiana, and why I love her too.

    She ranks pretty high for me, as far as Bond girls go, looking beyond just looks (though she has those too) and also examining their personality, actions and relevancy in the plot.

    Well said. She's one of my favorites as well.

    I'm a Kara fan

  • NSGWNSGW London
    edited January 2017 Posts: 299
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 nicely put I've always liked her too. Just getting a brief glimpse of her home and regular life in the scene where Bond first meets her face to face helps to humanize her a lot too I think.
  • NSGWNSGW London
    edited January 2017 Posts: 299
    deleted
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The GE game was/is a unique moment in video game history, the only thing comparable in the film world is probably GF. GE was a phenomenon.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,972
    NSGW wrote: »
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 nicely put I've always liked her too. Just getting a brief glimpse of her home and regular life in the scene where Bond first meets her face to face helps to humanize her a lot too I think.

    d'Abo has genuine chemistry with Dalton, which is somewhat rare in the films. I'd say Connery had it 2 or 3 times, Lazenby 1, Moore 2, Dalton 1, Brosnan 1 or 2, and Craig 1.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2017 Posts: 28,694
    Yes, Timothy and Maryam's chemistry was excellent. One of the best dynamics in Bond. I compare The Living Daylights to From Russia with Love a lot, and even here it's true. Sean and Daniela had that same effortless chemistry, and watching both them and Timothy and Maryam act so naturally around each other in their respective films, I think to myself, "You all really got on, didn't you?" When the Bond actor and actress are really in it together, it improves everything immensely, because you care about them and their connection all the more. I think that's an element we take for granted at times.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,779
    Yes, Timothy and Maryam's chemistry was excellent. One of the best dynamics in Bond. I compare The Living Daylights to From Russia with Love a lot, and even here it's true. Sean and Daniela had that same effortless chemistry, and watching both them and Timothy and Maryam act so naturally around each other in their respective films, I think to myself, "You all really got on, didn't you?" When the Bond actor and actress are really in it together, it improves everything immensely, because you care about them and their connection all the more. I think that's an element we take for granted at times.

    I agree, while OHMSS and CR are the more obvious 'romantic' Bond films, FRWL and TLD are right behind them in terms of believable romance.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2017 Posts: 23,883
    TLD undoubtedly has some elements in the earlier half that are highly reminiscent of FRWL, perhaps deliberately. It's clear that EON were trying to draw parallels to the 60's films with Dalton's debut. They did something similar with CR.

    However, to my eyes at least, D'Abo doesn't come close to capturing the captivating, alluring and yet innocent personality, nor the incredible physical presence of Bianchi. One can attempt to create a nuanced relationship and character, and perhaps they succeeded at that level (in fairness, I think they did), but I've always felt that one should inject a necessary level of glamour and essential 'sexiness' in a Bond film as well. It is here that TLD fails for me (just like TND fails similarly on that front) and this is why I can't relate to comparisons to FRWL, which was complete classic Bond style in every way.

    EON seemed to have learnt their lesson, because even though they created complex and complete characters in CR, they also ensured that the Bondian glamour and style levels were suitably 'amped up' as well.

    It's all about the balance when it comes to Bond.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I dunno, one of the things that I think makes Kara special is that Maryam wasn't the classic Miss Universe style woman and Venus-like goddess, nor was she made an object of sexual desire in ways that cheapened her. It's okay to have a bikini-clad Honey Ryder or bosom bursting Fiona Volpe from time to time, but not every Bond girl should fit that same image, or have to, as it becomes very tired over time.

    Kara is in that same category as Tracy for me. Both are women who were given some serious character building by strong scripts, and who weren't asked to strip down to nothing to appear captivating. What makes characters like Tracy and Kara wonderful and so unique is their minds, and how tantalizing they are on top of their resonant beauty. When I think of those two, I don't immediately think of sex. I'd want to buy Tracy a drink and discuss literature and poetry with her by the firelight, just as much as I'd like to take Kara on a trip to famous conservatories and hear her play me some original cello compositions until midnight. They offer so much more than their bodies, unlike far too many Bond girls of the past who had only that to rely on.

    Kara's presence represents some of the best character writing we've seen in the series, because the filmmakers strived to show us a real woman with an actual personality. I will always be thankful she exists for that reason and many more.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I hear where you're coming from, and don't disagree. Not every Bond girl must be a busty or model-esque type, or emphasize these elements.

    It's just that I believe they went out of their way to dial it down for TLD (perhaps reflecting the times) and that didn't quite appeal to me. Too plain Jane. I don't think that way of Tracy, who still has an essential stylishness to her while still being personally relateable. Moreover, I've visited Slovakia, and some of the girls there are unbelievably beautiful and strong willed, but also practical and not quite so naive. More Natalya than Kara. The latter came across more stupidly naive (in a stereotypical way, since she was East European at the height of the Cold War) to me rather than smartly sassy, yet naive (which both Tatianna and Natalya were).

    Still, it's only one film, and it defined the Dalton intro, which was in the middle of the Aids period. I can live with it.
  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    The latter came across more stupidly naive (in a stereotypical way, since she was East European at the height of the Cold War) to me rather than smartly sassy, yet naive (which both Tatianna and Natalya were).

    Yes, I quite like Kara but I still think she reminds me a bit of a puppy at times.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    That is part of her charm.
  • I'm a massive fan of the Gladys Knight's Licence to Kill. Is that controversial? Doesn't seem very well liked.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited February 2017 Posts: 40,461
    GetCarter wrote: »
    I'm a massive fan of the Gladys Knight's Licence to Kill. Is that controversial? Doesn't seem very well liked.

    When I watch LTK, I can be damn sure I'll be whistling that theme song to myself for the rest of the day. It's not my favorite, but I do enjoy it! Gladys had some pipes on her.
  • edited February 2017 Posts: 386
    Double post, sorry
  • Creasy47 wrote: »
    GetCarter wrote: »
    I'm a massive fan of the Gladys Knight's Licence to Kill. Is that controversial? Doesn't seem very well liked.

    When I watch LTK, I can be damn sure I'll be whistling that theme song to myself for the rest of the day. It's not my favorite, but I do enjoy it! Gladys had some pipes on her.

    One of my favorite Bond themes.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    ^I agree on that sentiment.

  • Birdleson wrote: »
    No, Lowell just sucks all around. The film would be far better without her.

    I won't have anyone insult Carey "Legs" Lowell around here.

    http://cdn3-www.craveonline.com/assets/mandatory/legacy/2015/03/man_file_1057387_23careylowell.jpg

    Of course Tim was the lucky one, and he knew it...

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ba/9a/dcba9ab98c7a46d64d498ed671e0e87a.jpg


    Dalton couldn't even charm girls for a cup of coffee haha. Lowell was mediocre and didn't look sexy at all, just an average bond girl, not top10 material.

  • RC7 wrote: »
    The GE game was/is a unique moment in video game history, the only thing comparable in the film world is probably GF. GE was a phenomenon.

    It was great until came along Half life or even perfect dark, the game lasted 2 years, the movie is still extremely popular and plays a lot on cable.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    GetCarter wrote: »
    I'm a massive fan of the Gladys Knight's Licence to Kill. Is that controversial? Doesn't seem very well liked.

    @GetCarter, I'll do you one better: Patti LaBelle's "If You Asked Me To" from the same film is my jam.
  • I like that one too, ha ha.

    Pure 80s goodness.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,779
    I love all the songs in both Dalton films, including LTK.

    Another thing, I don't really adore Donald Pleasence's Bond as much as others do. I prefer Anthony Dawson/Eric Pohlman, Telly Savalas and dare I say Charles Gray over him.

    Speaking of Gray, I just love how he hams it up in an equally silly movie. The guy is a hoot to watch.
  • I like both of LTK's songs. Used to think the Gladys Knight song was pretty disposable, but it's definitely grown on me. LaBelle's I've always loved.

    I'm opposite you on Pleasance and Gray. Savalas is definitely my favorite, but I think Pleasance contributes wonderfully to the weirdness and outlandishness of YOLT, whereas Gray in all his cigarette-chomping pompousness—a caricature of Fleming himself as I believe someone once put it—is just one more thing I don't like about DAF.
  • GBFGBF
    edited February 2017 Posts: 3,195
    I am controversial by thinking that all three Blofelds (Pleasance, Savalas and Gray) are solid but not great. I don't dislike any of them and even though they are very different I guess I find them equally strong. I can enjoy them all for different reasons but I still prefer other villains as well as the hidden Blofelds from FRWL and TB. Blofeld is at his best when he is unrevealed.
  • AntiLocqueBrakesAntiLocqueBrakes The edge
    Posts: 538
    GBF wrote: »
    Blofeld is at his best when he is unrevealed.

    Yes.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    The GE game was/is a unique moment in video game history, the only thing comparable in the film world is probably GF. GE was a phenomenon.

    It was great until came along Half life or even perfect dark, the game lasted 2 years, the movie is still extremely popular and plays a lot on cable.

    GE the game was a phenomenon.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I like to think that the Pleasence, Savalas and Gray Blofelds amount to the three "faces" of one vastly metamorphic shape-shifter. I've studied each of them heavily, and they are largely similar enough to make that sort of leap.
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