Spectre versus the field: Skyfall

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  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    PTS: AVTAK
    Title track: AVTAK
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: AVTAK
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: AVTAK
    Plot: AVTAK
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: AVTAK
    Settings: SP
    Action: AVTAK
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: SP

    AVTAK : 7
    SP: 11
    Hmm, another Spectre victory. AVTAK ranks higher though, Spectre is not more than the sum of its parts, whereas AVTAK is.
  • Posts: 4,023
    I had forgot some of the dumb humour in AVTAK. E.g. Moore hitting the antenna is awkward and embarrassing.

    It was certainly awkward for Bond.
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    Posts: 1,263
    w2bond wrote: »
    ... whereas AVTAK is [more than the sum of its parts].
    Well, you don't see that everyday!
  • Posts: 4,762
    PTS: Spectre
    Title track: A View to a Kill
    Titles: A View to a Kill
    Main villain: A View to a Kill
    Main Bond Girl: A View to a Kill (I didn't buy Bond's supposed starry-eyed love of Madeline; honestly, what was that all about?)
    Henchman: Spectre
    Plot: A View to a Kill
    Dialogue: A View to a Kill
    Score: A View to a Kill
    Settings: Spectre
    Action: Spectre
    Humour: A View to a Kill (Bond's intentionally rude treatment of Sir Godfrey might be the funniest sequence in the entire series)
    Cinematography: Spectre
    Benign Bizarre: Spectre
    Suspense: A View to a Kill
    Minor Characters: A View to a Kill
    Glamour: Spectre
    Bond performance: Spectre (incredibly close here since he is brilliant in AVTAK, but Roger's age is tough to hide; Craig's role simply makes more visual sense)

    A View to a Kill: 10
    Spectre: 8

    This isn't terribly surprising to me. A View to a Kill certainly lacks in the visuals and the action (save for the legitimately thrilling last 20 minutes), but at least its plot doesn't try to hurriedly unify previous Bond adventures, which was extremely dissatisfying for me, especially given the fact that SkyFall truly seemed like a standalone mission.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited October 2016 Posts: 2,252
    Mansfield wrote: »
    w2bond wrote: »
    ... whereas AVTAK is [more than the sum of its parts].
    Well, you don't see that everyday!

    @Mansfield
    Any Bond film that includes a Mr John Barry in the credits is instantly favourable in my books

    With a Newman score the rest of the film would have to be better than [insert your favorite Bond film] to have a chance
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited October 2016 Posts: 1,263
    w2bond wrote: »
    @Mansfield
    Any Bond film that includes a Mr John Barry in the credits is instantly favourable in my books

    With a Newman score the rest of the film would have to be better than [insert your favorite Bond film] to have a chance
    The score is just one part of the film. When you say it's more than the sum of its parts, that's implying an intangible excellence that's achieved through the convergence of its individual units. That's not something I've seen anyone say for AVTAK except for its most ardent supporters.

    I agree with you on Barry enhancing the overall product of any Bond though. My favorite score of his is probably TLD (or OHMSS), which vaults it into my 6-9 range. Without Barry I would place it outside of my Top 10 easily. I wouldn't qualify that all adding up to more of the sum of its parts. I would classify that as the soundtrack being of great significance to the product - much more than many other single elements put together.

    As for Newman, I'm mixed on his work. Within the context of the films, his work is passable and appropriate at times. His soundtracks don't carry the weight of the film, though. Outside of the context of the film I tend to agree with you more strongly -- not the quality of works that stands on its own outside of the picture. His work is best at matching the emotion of the scene. Barry was so good he would dictate the emotion of the scene.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Mansfield wrote: »
    w2bond wrote: »
    @Mansfield
    Any Bond film that includes a Mr John Barry in the credits is instantly favourable in my books

    With a Newman score the rest of the film would have to be better than [insert your favorite Bond film] to have a chance

    I wouldn't qualify that all adding up to more of the sum of its parts. I would classify that as the soundtrack being of great significance to the product - much more than many other single elements put together.

    Yes that would be an appropriate way to phrase it. AVTAK is tired effort, however the emotion of the score is enough to make it more rewatchable than spectre
  • After seven hard rounds of combat against Sir Roger Moore's tenure as Bond, Spectre emerges with its first victory, by a margin of 240-194-18. It also took home the total number of games, by the slightly thinner margin of 14-11-1. I can't imagine it will fare so well against Dalton's two entries, but then half the fun of these games is seeing the individual scores anyway.

    Speaking of which, it's time for my score, as SP faces off against The Living Daylights!

    PTS: TLD (I'm a bit lower on both than the consensus, but prefer TLD)
    Title track: SP (blech)
    Titles: SP (blech)
    Main villain: SP (Brad Whittaker is the second weakest in the series)
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: SP (my irrational fondness for Big Dave colors my perception)
    Plot: TLD (overly complicated is better than nonexistent)
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: SP (Afghanistan is, by definition, not a great location. I am sorry.)
    Action: TLD (Necros has his revenge!)
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP (again, Afghanistan)
    Bond performance: TLD (overly hammy, as Dalton tended to be, but enough to squeak past SP)

    10-8 for The Living Daylights! I suspect this will be the narrowest victory for TLD in the whole game, but let's see how you score it, shall we?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687


    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: TLD
    12 to 6 for TLD.

  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited October 2016 Posts: 2,721
    PTS: TLD (I love SP's - but TLD is a top 5 PTS for me. Wonderful introduction to the new Bond)

    Title track: TLD (SP's is among my least favourite. I like A-Ha's - especially for nostalgia! And I think it ties in with the Barry themes so well.)

    Titles: SP (Giving this to SP - TLD's is in Binder uninspired phase)

    Main villain: SP (As much as I have issues with Blofeld in SP - he beats Whittaker.)

    Main Bond Girl: TLD (I like the delicate romance with Kara. It feels like Bond is more protective of her. Then sometimes his instincts kick in and he barks orders at her. I think it's quite believable dynamic between them.)

    Henchman: TLD (This is one area where SP has been cleaning up in these head-to-heads. BUT - I think Necros is excellent. He really impacts on the plot significantly. His attack on the Bladen's Safe House compound is one of the finest sequences in the series that doesn't involve Bond. His killing of Saunders and his fight on the cargo plane. He has three or four standout scenes versus Hinx's two - Spectre meeting and Train fight.)

    Plot: TLD (I really like the double cross from Koskov. The film gets tangled up in complication from Afghanistan sequence onwards but I really like the mystery and set up. SP's is a real problem for me.)

    Dialogue: TLD (I like SP's but TLD's is great. Many scenes with koskov and the one between Pushkin and Bond. I love the way Dalton delivers Bondian dialogue.)

    Score: TLD (Slam dunk!!! TLD is a fine score - Into Vienna is a wonderful romantic score that Barry excels at. Hercules Takes Off and Ice Chase are excellent. This is an all round well crafted and ambitious soundtrack. One of my favourites.)

    Settings: TLD (I love SP's settings - but TLD has iconic Gibraltar opening, Vienna 'Third Man' Ferris Wheel, Tangier's rooftop chase and the way they film that early morning Afghanistan Sequence is a highlight. Most importantly it has a Cold War setting - and like Octopussy - I'm a sucker for that as a Bond setting!)

    Action: TLD ( the truck chase in the opening, the car ice chase and the Afghanistan Battle Sequences paired with the Necros fight. I even like the atmosphere in the final Whittaker fight - just narratively it's a problem for me.)

    Humour: TLD (I like SP's humour - but I really enjoyed the whole 'Pig! Cake! Bosch!' exchange - and Dalton delivers the 'you're the first' with Roger Moore cool. Koskov is very good with his humour - both when he's playing a part and when he has been revealed as a traitor.)

    Cinematography: TLD (This could really be a tie but I'll give this to TLD for the Sniper sequence, the fairground sequence and the car chase. And of course the way the foreground miniatures are filmed and that wonderful shot Afghanistan I mentioned earlier)

    Benign Bizarre: TLD (Smiert Spionam, Milk Bottle grenades, Saunder's death, Heart in diamonds, Whitaker's gallery of 'butchers')

    Suspense: TLD (TLD has suspense across the film and in individual scenes. Especially the Sniper scene.)

    Minor Characters: TLD (Q, Moneypenny - always like Caroline Bliss, the pipeline operative, Kamran Shah.)

    Glamour: SP (For the Train sequence costumes and setting, Rome and Day of the Dead opening)

    Bond performance: TLD (I really like Dalton's performance. I'm a fan of Craig's in SP too. But Dalton could win for the sniper sequence alone. The Pushkin confrontation alone. Even that look when he says 'I got the message' could win him it. Overall I actually prefer this performance to LTK's)

    TLD = 15
    SP = 3

    SP could have won the Cinematography and fought well for Settings - but everything else is rock solid TLD. Don't feel too bad SP - TLD is my fourth favourite Bond film and the first 007 cinema experience and will always be close to my heart.
  • MooseWithFleasMooseWithFleas Philadelphia
    Posts: 3,333
    PTS: SP (Both are top 5 at the moment, but give me SP slightly for now)
    Title track: TLD (Hard to compare these two polar opposite songs, but A-Ha gets my vote by a slim margin)
    Titles: TLD (Features one of my favorite title sequence images of the girl popping out of the champagne flute)
    Main villain: SP (Slim margin here as main villain is a weakspot for both)
    Main Bond Girl: TLD (Love Kara, one of my favorites. Sweet and innocent and D'Abo plays her perfectly)
    Henchman: TLD (Necros!!!! Making milkmen relevant again. Hinx is solid, but Necros is better)
    Plot: TLD (One of the best plots in the series)
    Dialogue: TLD (Maibaum turns in a solid effort that is more consistent than SP)
    Score: TLD (One of Barry's best. Absolutey adore the end credits by The Pretenders)
    Settings: SP (Close one, but HVH makes gets slightly more out of his locales)
    Action: TLD
    Humour: TLD (Are you calling me a horse's ass?)
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD (Shah, Pushkin, Rosika, all make for a great ensemble)
    Glamour: TLD
    Bond performance: TLD

    14-4 TLD. I expected a near clean sweep given that TLD is #2 in my rankings, but SP managed to squeak a few categories in
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2016 Posts: 23,883
    SP vs TLD

    PTS: TLD (not even close. SP has the tracking shot. TLD has everything else)
    Title track: TLD (AhA's track is a classic. Smith's isn't)
    Titles: SP (I can't remember TLD)
    Main villain: TLD (Whittaker is dull but still superior to the latest Blofeld, who I find ridiculously poor)
    Main Bond Girl: SP (A rare win because Kara is horrendous rather than because Swann is any good)
    Henchman: TLD (Necros takes Hinx)
    Plot: TLD (It's a classic cold war plot)
    Dialogue: TLD (Saunders/Bond is enough for the win, but Pushkin/Bond & Jorgi/Bond are there too just in cas)
    Score: TLD (please)
    Settings: SP (much better locations in the latest film even though they were wasted for the most part)
    Action: TLD (Action is a Glen speciality and the PTS & mid air fight take it)
    Humour: SP (Dalton was never any good with this)
    Cinematography: SP (Despite the yellow hue because cinematography is not a Glen strong suit)
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD (Glen knew how to dial it up)
    Minor Characters: TLD (Pushkin & Saunders take White)
    Glamour: SP (the train trumps Vienna only because Glen wastes the location)
    Bond performance: TLD (I'm not a Daltonite by any means, but he is better by some distance in TLD than Craig is in SP imho)

    TLD: 11
    SP: 7
  • SP vs TLD

    PTS: SP
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: SP (assuming Whitaker is the main villain)
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: SP
    Action: TLD
    Humour: TLD
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 12
    SP: 6
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    SP vs TLD

    PTS: SP
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: SP
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: TLD
    Settings: SP
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: SP

    SP - 13
    TLD - 5
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: SP (on looks)
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: SP
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 11
    SP: 7

    Easy victory for my 1st ranked film vs last rank

    I've become less biased against Spectre's individual elements, because much of it is quite good. It's the complete package that falls apart.
  • walter1985walter1985 Rotterdam
    Posts: 91
    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: SP (close call, don't like-em both...)
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: SP
    Action: TLD
    Humour: TLD
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 11
    SP: 7
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    SP vs TLD

    PTS: TLD (my favourite)
    Title track: TLD (top 3 for me)
    Titles: SP (don't like both)
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: Tie
    Henchman: TLD (Necros is so much better and also very successfull)
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD (one of the very best)
    Settings: TLD (locations are used much better)
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: Tie
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: Tie
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 12
    SP: 3
    Tie: 3

    TLD is my No. 1, SP is my No. 22
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 13
    SP: 5
  • Posts: 12,243
    PTS: SP (both greats in the series IMO. SP's is one of my all-time favorites, edges out)
    Title track: TLD (mixed feelings on Writing's on the Wall. TLD's title song has grown on me)
    Titles: SP (really liked SP's titles, not so much TLD's)
    Main villain: SP (I like Waltz Blofeld)
    Main Bond Girl: SP (close call. Both middleish Bond girls for me)
    Henchman: TLD (I'll give this one to Necros. More original than Hinx)
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD (SP's dialogue can be a weak point sometimes)
    Score: TLD (great send-off for Barry)
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD (close call, but TLD has some really original, memorable side characters)
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: SP (Craig seemed so comfortable as Bond. Dalton was ok, but better in LTK IMO)

    SP: 11
    TLD: 7

    Both are enjoyable Bond films. Personally prefer SP.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited October 2016 Posts: 13,882
    PTS: The Living Daylights
    Title track: The Living Daylights
    Titles: The Living Daylights
    Main villain: The Living Daylights
    Main Bond Girl: The Living Daylights
    Henchman: The Living Daylights
    Plot: The Living Daylights
    Dialogue: The Living Daylights
    Score: The Living Daylights
    Settings: The Living Daylights
    Action: The Living Daylights
    Humour: The Living Daylights
    Cinematography: The Living Daylights
    Benign Bizarre: The Living Daylights
    Suspense: The Living Daylights
    Minor Characters: The Living Daylights
    Glamour: The Living Daylights
    Bond performance: The Living Daylights


    TLD:18
    SP: 0

    Is Specte ok? I think it might need an ambulance after that..... better make that a hearse.
  • Posts: 19,339
    PTS: TLD
    Title track: SP
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: TLD
    Settings: SP
    Action: SP
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: SP

    SP: 15
    TLD (snore-fest) : 3
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,760
    This is going to be a massacre: PEGI 18.

    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: TLD
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: TLD
    Cinematography: TLD
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: TLD
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 18
    SP: 0
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 13
    SP: 5
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Wow. Some folks actually prefer SP to TLD. That kinda blows my mind. I *love* SP, but I consider TLD the last of the truly classic Bonds.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,255
    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: SP
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: SP

    TLD: 6
    SP: 12

    Apologies to Tim's fans; much of the above were close. I do like TLD on some levels. And, in the end, Bond v Bond, IMO: Dalton was either too angry in scenes (I have never found Fleming's Bond "angry"; he got angry, mainly with himself, but he's not an angry figure. He was also vengeful (but, at least to me, vengeance is more calculated and far different than "angry"). As the literary character got older and older, I found him to be more melancholy and thoughtful, to just downright sad (when he was essentially drinking himself to death after Tracy's death in YOLT; but never angry)); or too theatrical (meeting the girl on the yacht in PTS (his clipped "BetterMakeThatTwo"); his early scenes with Saunders where he was very stiff, instead of wired like an animal (yes, Bond hates to kill in cold blood, but it seems TD was "telegraphing" this instead of "acting" it), speaking to M about Pushkin (shoulders looked up by his ears), Kara hitting him with the pillow/horses ass...), with too few scenes where he nails it (Saunders murder; Pushkin interrogation scene in hotel room, the assassination scene, coaxing information from Kara in the horse drawn carriage; being drugged by Kara and quickly revealing he's actually the good guy, not Koskov; to his dialogue with koskov after awakening on the plane)...
  • Posts: 19,339
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Wow. Some folks actually prefer SP to TLD. That kinda blows my mind. I *love* SP, but I consider TLD the last of the truly classic Bonds.

    TLD is bottom of my list,no love for it or bloody Kara from this member,Chris.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    barryt007 wrote: »
    TLD is bottom of my list,no love for it or bloody Kara from this member,Chris.
    *viciously pops balloon*
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    This is going to be a massacre: PEGI 18.

    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: TLD
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: TLD
    Cinematography: TLD
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: TLD
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 18
    SP: 0

    Seconded.

    DALTON RULEZ™

    TLD 18
    SP 0
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    This is going to be a massacre: PEGI 18.

    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: TLD
    Main villain: TLD
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: TLD
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: TLD
    Cinematography: TLD
    Benign Bizarre: TLD
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: TLD
    Bond performance: TLD

    TLD: 18
    SP: 0

    Seconded.

    DALTON RULEZ™

    TLD 18
    SP 0

    Interesting result :-) I always thought SP is your favourite Bond film. Even I, who think that TLD is the best and SP is the third worst Bond film do think that SP is superiour at least in some categories.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    SP vs TLD

    PTS: TLD
    Title track: TLD
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: SP
    Main Bond Girl: TLD
    Henchman: SP
    Plot: TLD
    Dialogue: TLD
    Score: TLD
    Settings: TLD
    Action: TLD
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: TLD
    Minor Characters: TLD
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: SP

    TLD: 10
    SP: 8
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