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Spectre versus the field: Skyfall

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  • IncompetentHenchmanIncompetentHenchman
    Posts: 1,817
    Dalton's portrayal in LTK is misunderstood.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,269
    I do like it - much more than his performance in TLD - but it's still not one of the best Bond performances IMO.
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,880
    Spectre versus Licence To Kill

    PTS: SP
    Title track: SP
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: SP
    Henchman: LTK
    Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: SP
    Score: LTK
    Settings: SP
    Action: LTK
    Humour: SP
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: LTK
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: SP
    Glamour: SP
    Bond performance: LTK

    SP - 10
    LTK - 8

    Spectre wins this round for me.


  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Mansfield wrote: »
    I'm glad to see some people share the dissenting view of Dalton's performance in LTK. I really like what Dalton brought to Bond, but for me LTK is the weaker of his two works. It would have been great if he had the chance to suit up under a different director.

    Agreed. The film needed a new director and writer if they were going in a new direction.

    The crap revenge story just didn't give Dalton a chance after his nuanced turn in TLD.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    PTS: SP
    Title track: SP
    Titles: SP
    Main villain: LTK
    Main Bond Girl: LTK
    Henchman: LTK
    Plot: LTK
    Dialogue: LTK
    Score: LTK
    Settings: SP
    Action: LTK
    Humour: LTK
    Cinematography: SP
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: LTK
    Minor Characters: LTK
    Glamour: LTK
    Bond performance: LTK

    SP 6
    LTK 12

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited November 2016 Posts: 5,131
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Mansfield wrote: »
    I'm glad to see some people share the dissenting view of Dalton's performance in LTK. I really like what Dalton brought to Bond, but for me LTK is the weaker of his two works. It would have been great if he had the chance to suit up under a different director.

    Agreed. The film needed a new director and writer if they were going in a new direction.

    The crap revenge story just didn't give Dalton a chance after his nuanced turn in TLD.

    Licence to Kill is intense and violent and shares little in common with the Roger Moore era (it goes back to Fleming). Audiences weren’t ready for a film ahead of its time and its summer release alongside a series of blockbusters meant its one of the least remembered Bond films. Interestingly, the stripped down and violent formula of Licence to Kill was back with Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace where it was met with almost hysterical praise. Licence to Kill was 17 years too early and modern audiences should be able to see it for what it is – a stunning film - the best Bond film at the time since LALD.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 6,819
    Exactly my thoughts.A well told story with excellent characters, a compelling Bond lead, and tremendous action set pieces! John Glen, in his book, slates the studio for doing little or no publicity for it. It tested better with American audiences than any previous Bond movie up to then, and just got buried in the year of Batman, Indiana Jones and Lethal Weapon 2. All inferior films imho! Still under-rated, its a superb film, still fresh and exciting today!
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Mansfield wrote: »
    I'm glad to see some people share the dissenting view of Dalton's performance in LTK. I really like what Dalton brought to Bond, but for me LTK is the weaker of his two works. It would have been great if he had the chance to suit up under a different director.

    Agreed. The film needed a new director and writer if they were going in a new direction.

    The crap revenge story just didn't give Dalton a chance after his nuanced turn in TLD.

    Licence to Kill is intense and violent and shares little in common with the Roger Moore era (it goes back to Fleming). Audiences weren’t ready for a film ahead of its time and its summer release alongside a series of blockbusters meant its one of the least remembered Bond films. Interestingly, the stripped down and violent formula of Licence to Kill was back with Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace where it was met with almost hysterical praise. Licence to Kill was 17 years too early and modern audiences should be able to see it for what it is – a stunning film - the best Bond film at the time since LALD.

    Sorry can't agree that it's a 'stunning' film.

    It's ugly, nasty for the sake of it and just doesn't work. It want's to be taken seriously with a vengeful new Bond but then has a Truck doing an inexplicable wheelie. And after all the bloodshed we're asked to swallow a soppy epilogue where Bond gets the girl and Felix Leiter is ready to go fishing (presumably after he's arranged the funeral of his murdered wife)

    Dalton overacts terribly and looks as if he's just trying too hard to be this tough no-nonsense Bond. It just comes across as awkward.

    I can never understand how people think it 'goes back to Fleming' Its nothing like Fleming.

    And to liken it to CR and QoS is insulting to those two excellent films.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 6,819
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,504
    @Leonard, you nailed it perfectly ("old buddy").
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!

    As is the aquarium scene with the exploding fish tanks.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!

    Yeah it nicks two scenes from LALD but they're not in the same context as the novel and are kind of shoehorned into the naff un-Fleming revenge plot we are served up.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    peter wrote: »
    @Leonard, you nailed it perfectly ("old buddy").

    :))
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    I also find it quite strange that people call LTK so extremely "Flemming-esque" on the one hand and "ahead of its time" on the other hand. I mean Flemming died in 1964, 25 years before LTK was produced. If he had ever thought of something like LTK, then he was very much ahead of his time.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2016 Posts: 23,883
    SP vs LTK

    PTS: LTK (I realize this might be controversial, but apart from the tracking shot, I'm not a fan of the SP pretitles at all. LTK has the incredible mid air stunt, which was so good that it was recently copied by Nolan in TDKR, and it also has Sanchez at his best. "What did he promise you? His heart? Give her his heart!". Priceless)
    Title track: LTK (Love Gladys's soulful title track. Can't stand Smith's tripe)
    Titles: LTK (Just so I can listen to Gladys).
    Main villain: LTK (probably one of the most one sided thrashings on this thread. Davi's Sanchez is one of the best Bond villains of all time, and carries the film, along with Dalton)
    Main Bond Girl: SP (Much as I dislike Seydoux's Swann of "can't any of you speak?!" fame, I'm afraid Carey Lowell's Pam Bouvier is one of the most annoying leading ladies in Bondom. "Why can't you be my executive assistant?" Indeed. Well, because it's a bloody James Bond film Pam.)
    Henchman: LTK (Benicio del Toro's charismatic and intense Dario easily dispatches the generic and derivative Hinx)
    Plot: LTK (One of the best plots in my view. A simple revenge tale, but beautifully told and acted, with some very smart elements of deception and psychological manipulation)
    Dialogue: LTK (although the best lines are from Sanchez rather than Bond, the earlier film is a clear winner here)
    Score: LTK (Kamen is no Barry, but he did a wonderful job of incorporating his trademark Lethal Weapon/Die Hard suspense scoring with the Bond style)
    Settings: SP (much better locations in the latest film)
    Action: LTK (Glen doing what he does best again. Bond's escape from the Wavecrest and the finale with the tankers are highlights)
    Humour: LTK (some great vicious lines from Sanchez. "Launder it")
    Cinematography: SP (I can't stand the piss yellow but the cinematography is very good in the latest film)
    Benign Bizarre: SP
    Suspense: LTK (incredibly tense in various places - particularly when you wonder whether Sanchez, Dario or Heller would catch onto Bond's plan)
    Minor Characters: LTK (Heller, Hawkins, Sharky, Krest, Joe Butcher, Killifer & Della trump White)
    Glamour: SP (just for the train sequence in SP, although LTK is also very nice in the casino)
    Bond performance: LTK (absolute thrashing imho. LTK was made for Dalton and he delivers an incredibly intense performance. SP was not made for Craig's strengths, and regrettably it shows imho)

    LTK: 13
    SP: 5

    LTK for the win.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 6,819
    LTK was gleaned ahead of its time as it portrayed a darker, gritty Bond. One that many years later was lauded when Craig took over! The plot, re drug dealer (LALD notwithstanding) and the more violent tone was also out of the norm for a Bond movie!
    It holds up really well today, compared to GE which came years later, which now looks horribly dated and old fashioned!
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    LTK was gleaned ahead of its time as it portrayed a darker, gritty Bond. One that many years later was lauded when Craig took over! The plot, re drug dealer (LALD notwithstanding) and the more violent tone was also out of the norm for a Bond movie!
    It holds up really well today, compared to GE which came years later, which now looks horribly dated and old fashioned!

    Well but that is because of the awful score and the focus on 90s computer technology which make GE look and sound a bit dated. The same could however be said about FRWL or FYEO whose plots were about some kind of old fashioned technology (from today's point of view).

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    There is horribly dated, and then there is wonderfully dated.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    There is horribly dated, and then there is wonderfully dated.

    I msut agree somehow.

    WRT to LTK however, I also think that the film is really solid and rewatchable. The pace is good, too. My main problem is that in my eyes it is the least Bondian film of the whole series. If Sharky did not die and had a bigger part, this could easily be Lethal Weapon 2.5. There is hardly anything in it that seperates it from being typical late 80s American action cinema.

  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!

    Exactly.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!

    Yeah it nicks two scenes from LALD but they're not in the same context as the novel and are kind of shoehorned into the naff un-Fleming revenge plot we are served up.

    Leiter maiming scene, reference to Tracy, Milton Krest, whipping scene, tone, Daltons performance. All very very Fleming.....ripped from the pages of his novels.....the only other films like this are CR, DN, FRWL, GF, TB and OHMSS.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!

    Yeah it nicks two scenes from LALD but they're not in the same context as the novel and are kind of shoehorned into the naff un-Fleming revenge plot we are served up.

    Leiter maiming scene, reference to Tracy, Milton Krest, whipping scene, tone, Daltons performance. All very very Fleming.....ripped from the pages of his novels.....the only other films like this are CR, DN, FRWL, GF, TB and OHMSS.
    I would add TLD here, but YES!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Has SP actually won any of these contests? I can't remember.

    It should start to do better now that the Brosnan years will be upon us shortly, although GE is likely to kick its 'a'.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2016 Posts: 17,691
    bondjames wrote: »
    Has SP actually won any of these contests? I can't remember.

    It should start to do better now that the Brosnan years will be upon us shortly, although GE is likely to kick its 'a'.

    TND will also kick its butt (prediction here). :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Has SP actually won any of these contests? I can't remember.

    It should start to do better now that the Brosnan years will be upon us shortly, although GE is likely to kick its 'a'.

    TND will also kick its butt (prediction here). :D
    Funny, but that is precisely when I thought SP would start to move ahead before giving TWINE a resounding thrashing. I prefer TND personally, but I think it will be close fight between it and SP.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    bondjames wrote: »
    I prefer TND personally, but I think it will be close fight between it and SP.
    Me too, and I agree. But TND just has so much character & humour to it.... SP is a bit dry by comparison (though I love it too).
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    chrisisall wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Well it takes the scene of Leiters maiming from LALD! I still claim Daltons Bond is closest to Fleming. He's not invincible, he makes mistakes, he has problems with authority, he's in a dirty job, a trained killer, which he doesn't really like but is very good at it, but he believes in doing the right thing and getting the job done! Coming before Brosnans empty wooden soulless 'performance' as 007, it was a crime he never went on to do more films!

    Yeah it nicks two scenes from LALD but they're not in the same context as the novel and are kind of shoehorned into the naff un-Fleming revenge plot we are served up.

    Leiter maiming scene, reference to Tracy, Milton Krest, whipping scene, tone, Daltons performance. All very very Fleming.....ripped from the pages of his novels.....the only other films like this are CR, DN, FRWL, GF, TB and OHMSS.
    I would add TLD here, but YES!

    True.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Who's got their final entries, before we make the leap to the Brosnan years?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    GBF wrote: »
    Where is @TheWizardOfIce? The forum needs his caustic humour!

    .
    Records show that he visits most days, just choses not to post. I'm sure he will be back.

  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I prefer TND personally, but I think it will be close fight between it and SP.
    Me too, and I agree. But TND just has so much character & humour to it.... SP is a bit dry by comparison (though I love it too).

    It's a different kind of humour. We've had quite a variety - from TB, DAF, to DAD and SP

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