SKYFALL: FANS' REACTIONS - GUARANTEED SPOILERS

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  • Been having a few problems lately that's all

    But yes, I saw the movie and I was really impressed

    I was even hoping it would go on and on..

    Quite a difference from the last release
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,327
    I see the members that don't like Skyfall are still trying desperately to force their opinions down everyones throat, that they are in fact in the majority really, its just all a conspiracy, and that anyone who does like Skyfall are dumb, or are not seeing the light, and will eventually come round to their way of thinking.

    The other criticism I keep reading is that Skyfall didn't feature enough large action set-pieces. Yet if you check the early Connery films (the first 3) and OHMSS, they didn't feature that many either. There are still probably more action sequences in Skyfall.

    Either way, give me the thriller type, down-to-earth Bond film any day of the week. I'd much rather see Bond chasing Silva on a tube train than an ice palace car chase with invisible cars.

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,274
    The other criticism I keep reading is that Skyfall didn't feature enough large action set-pieces. Yet if you check the early Connery films (the first 3) and OHMSS, they didn't feature that many either. There are still probably more action sequences in Skyfall.
    There are two. In the PCS and the final showdown at Skyfall. The train crashing through the roof can't be considered an "action set piece", IMO. So for the entire runtime of QoS there's not a single action setpiece.

    And OHMSS had plenty. Two skichases, a stockcar race and the final showdown at Piz Gloria. So did FRWL and GF. SF is Daniel Craig's TMWTGG.

    I really believe that gklein nailed it here:
    gklein wrote:
    There should be about five set-pieces (interspersed with smaller action bits).Many Bond movies make the mistake of never topping the pre-credit action. Worse, more still have very weak finales. Well, in "Skyfall", the pre-credit set-piece is all we get. Period. "For Your Eyes Only" is a great example of a Bond movie with a large number of set-pieces held together by an engaging, down-to-earth, realistic story with a few twists.
    (...)
    This Bond movie had pretensions of being taken as a serious thriller. It has an academy award winning director at its helm and is filled with top-tier actors and actresses. It has a celebrated writing team. The producers have publicly bragged about this script and all the time (YEARS) that they had to perfect it. All this and they give us a story no more cohesive than that of "Moonraker" -- but with none of that movie's stunts, sets, or special effects to hide the craters.

    This is our 50 year anniversary gift for all our support over the years -- and the new formula!? Old formula -- the plot and story must never make sense and we'll have great panache-laden action set-pieces to hide the fact. New formula -- the plot and story must never make sense and we'll have scenes with great acting to hide the fact -- and the action set-pieces are to be thrown-out (baby with the bath water)
  • Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    The other criticism I keep reading is that Skyfall didn't feature enough large action set-pieces. Yet if you check the early Connery films (the first 3) and OHMSS, they didn't feature that many either. There are still probably more action sequences in Skyfall.
    There are two. In the PCS and the final showdown at Skyfall. The train crashing through the roof can't be considered an "action set piece", IMO. So for the entire runtime of QoS there's not a single action setpiece.

    And OHMSS had plenty. Two skichases, a stockcar race and the final showdown at Piz Gloria. So did FRWL and GF. SF is Daniel Craig's TMWTGG.

    I really believe that gklein nailed it here:
    gklein wrote:
    There should be about five set-pieces (interspersed with smaller action bits).Many Bond movies make the mistake of never topping the pre-credit action. Worse, more still have very weak finales. Well, in "Skyfall", the pre-credit set-piece is all we get. Period. "For Your Eyes Only" is a great example of a Bond movie with a large number of set-pieces held together by an engaging, down-to-earth, realistic story with a few twists.
    (...)
    This Bond movie had pretensions of being taken as a serious thriller. It has an academy award winning director at its helm and is filled with top-tier actors and actresses. It has a celebrated writing team. The producers have publicly bragged about this script and all the time (YEARS) that they had to perfect it. All this and they give us a story no more cohesive than that of "Moonraker" -- but with none of that movie's stunts, sets, or special effects to hide the craters.

    This is our 50 year anniversary gift for all our support over the years -- and the new formula!? Old formula -- the plot and story must never make sense and we'll have great panache-laden action set-pieces to hide the fact. New formula -- the plot and story must never make sense and we'll have scenes with great acting to hide the fact -- and the action set-pieces are to be thrown-out (baby with the bath water)

    We probably see action differently then. For me I counted -

    PTS
    Fight scene in Shanghai
    Fight scene in Macao
    Gunfight in London with Silva
    Tube chase
    Shootout at Skyfall

    I agree that SF could maybe have done with one more action set-piece, but give me the tube chase any day of the week, over a speedboat chase with Sherrif J.W., an ice-palace CGI fest, or an action tick box list which plagued the Moore and Brozza films.


  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    So did FRWL and GF.

    Please list me the action set-pieces in FRWL and GF, and see how they compare with SF. If you are going to state the fight scene in the train with Grant is an action scene, then you also have to include the Shanghai fight scene in SF.

    The speedboat chase at the end of FRWL is fairly naff, and again if you include that as a sequence, you should also include the gunfight in London with Silva.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,327
    edit

  • Posts: 3,274
    Zekidk wrote:
    The other criticism I keep reading is that Skyfall didn't feature enough large action set-pieces. Yet if you check the early Connery films (the first 3) and OHMSS, they didn't feature that many either. There are still probably more action sequences in Skyfall.
    There are two. In the PCS and the final showdown at Skyfall. The train crashing through the roof can't be considered an "action set piece", IMO. So for the entire runtime of QoS there's not a single action setpiece.

    And OHMSS had plenty. Two skichases, a stockcar race and the final showdown at Piz Gloria. So did FRWL and GF. SF is Daniel Craig's TMWTGG.

    I really believe that gklein nailed it here:
    gklein wrote:
    There should be about five set-pieces (interspersed with smaller action bits).Many Bond movies make the mistake of never topping the pre-credit action. Worse, more still have very weak finales. Well, in "Skyfall", the pre-credit set-piece is all we get. Period. "For Your Eyes Only" is a great example of a Bond movie with a large number of set-pieces held together by an engaging, down-to-earth, realistic story with a few twists.
    (...)
    This Bond movie had pretensions of being taken as a serious thriller. It has an academy award winning director at its helm and is filled with top-tier actors and actresses. It has a celebrated writing team. The producers have publicly bragged about this script and all the time (YEARS) that they had to perfect it. All this and they give us a story no more cohesive than that of "Moonraker" -- but with none of that movie's stunts, sets, or special effects to hide the craters.

    This is our 50 year anniversary gift for all our support over the years -- and the new formula!? Old formula -- the plot and story must never make sense and we'll have great panache-laden action set-pieces to hide the fact. New formula -- the plot and story must never make sense and we'll have scenes with great acting to hide the fact -- and the action set-pieces are to be thrown-out (baby with the bath water)

    We probably see action differently then. For me I counted -
    PTS
    Fight scene in Shanghai
    Fight scene in Macao
    Gunfight in London with Silva
    Tube chase
    Shootout at Skyfall
    There's a difference between an action sequence and an action set piece. An action set piece is a car chase that turns into a rooftop motorcycle chase and ends up on the roof of a speeding train. Two guys fistfighting for 30 seconds isn't an action set piece, no matter how well it's choreographed. Bond movies are all about action set pieces. Strip away these and you have Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    There's a difference between an action sequence and an action set piece. An action set piece is a car chase that turns into a rooftop motorcycle chase and ends up on the roof of a speeding train. Two guys fistfighting for 30 seconds isn't an action set piece, no matter how well it's choreographed. Bond movies are all about action set pieces. Strip away these and you have Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.
    So how many action set pieces in FRWL then?
    Or Dr. No?
    Or GF?
  • Posts: 3,274
    Zekidk wrote:
    So did FRWL and GF.

    Please list me the action set-pieces in FRWL and GF, and see how they compare with SF. If you are going to state the fight scene in the train with Grant is an action scene, then you also have to include the Shanghai fight scene in SF.
    First of all FRWL had a plot that made sense, SF didn't. FRWL had: a gypsy camp "war", a speedboat-chase, the NBNW set piece; GF had the carchase at GF's factory and the final showdown at Fort Knox. But both movies also had something that SF doesn't: originality. These were different times.

    It really is fine with me if they want to keep the action at a minimum and make a more thriller-based entry. But then they have to come up with a better script and story than SF. Good acting isn't gonna cut it.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    Zekidk wrote:
    So did FRWL and GF.

    Please list me the action set-pieces in FRWL and GF, and see how they compare with SF. If you are going to state the fight scene in the train with Grant is an action scene, then you also have to include the Shanghai fight scene in SF.
    First of all FRWL had a plot that made sense, SF didn't. FRWL had: a gypsy camp "war", a speedboat-chase, the NBNW set piece; GF had the carchase at GF's factory and the final showdown at Fort Knox. But both movies also had something that SF doesn't: originality. These were different times.

    It really is fine with me if they want to keep the action at a minimum and make a more thriller-based entry. But then they have to come up with a better script and story than SF. Good acting isn't gonna cut it.
    So at least we've agreed now that action set-pieces don't have to be essential to make a decent Bond movie. The action set-pieces you stated for FWRL and GF are no different to SF. The gypsy camp war was basically lots of gun fighting, so we can also include the gunfight in London then for SF.

    I find SF very original, and probably the strongest script since OHMSS (although LTK comes close).

  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,274
    I find SF very original, and probably the strongest script since OHMSS (although LTK comes close).
    Let's just agree to disagree.

    Not much of the story, like Silva's motivation made any sense. But that's okay if they instead went for an escapist action adventure. They didn't.

    I thought the script was awful for many reasons, fx:

    I know that a lot of Bond movies have been inspired from other movies. But SF was just an all-out copy/paste assault, IMO there where loads of scenes that reminded me of, or was lifted from, another movie:
    I saw Octopussy, Patriot Games, Die Hard 3 and 4, Home Alone, Silence of the Lambs, Nolan's Batman-movies, Goldeneye, TWINE, Moonraker and Mission Impossible in there. Too much for my taste.

    IMO, they shouldn't have taken an action adventure film series that doesn't take it self too serious and try to make it into a pseudo-realistic, serious trying-to-get Oscars type movie, which is what they clearly wanted to do with Skyfall, since action was kept at a bare minimum (two action setpieces from the storyboard were scrapped.) It's just pretentious, dull and tedious, IMO.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    I find SF very original, and probably the strongest script since OHMSS (although LTK comes close).
    Let's just agree to disagree.

    Agreed. It's getting dull now hearing the anti-SF brigade state why the film didn't work, and why the pro-SF gang (including me) say it does work.
  • Posts: 3,274
    @jetsetwilly

    This is a discussion forum. And I don't find discussing SF "dull."
  • Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    @jetsetwilly

    This is a discussion forum. And I don't find discussing SF "dull."
    No, but I find endless repeats of the same old argument very dull. `Not enough action, too many plot holes....wahhh wahhhh wahhhhhh!'



  • Posts: 6,601
    Zekidk wrote:
    @jetsetwilly

    This is a discussion forum. And I don't find discussing SF "dull."

    Well, its a bit shaky, if people do the wrong maths, for example, to make their points.

    You say, there are 800 reviews on IMDB, of which 1/3 are negative. So - we have a 8,10 rating. With 266 negaive reviews, we would be at around 7.40.
    I see the members that don't like Skyfall are still trying desperately to force their opinions down everyones throat, that they are in fact in the majority really, its just all a conspiracy, and that anyone who does like Skyfall are dumb, or are not seeing the light, and will eventually come round to their way of thinking.


    =D> =D> =D>
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,327
    Germanlady wrote:
    Zekidk wrote:
    @jetsetwilly

    This is a discussion forum. And I don't find discussing SF "dull."

    Well, its a bit shaky, if people do the wrong maths, for example, to make their points.

    You say, there are 800 reviews on IMDB, of which 1/3 are negative. So - we have a 8,10 rating. With 266 negaive reviews, we would be at around 7.40.
    I see the members that don't like Skyfall are still trying desperately to force their opinions down everyones throat, that they are in fact in the majority really, its just all a conspiracy, and that anyone who does like Skyfall are dumb, or are not seeing the light, and will eventually come round to their way of thinking.


    =D> =D> =D>

    Thanks GL. B-)
  • Posts: 6,601
    With pleasure. You nailed it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Ahh...could we actually talk about the film now? This is getting old.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Ahh...could we actually talk about the film now? This is getting old.
    Only if it doesn't include talking about plot holes or not enough action......

    ;)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Ahh...could we actually talk about the film now? This is getting old.
    Only if it doesn't include talking about plot holes or not enough action......

    ;)

    Exactly, away from that.
  • Posts: 6,601
    Ahh...could we actually talk about the film now? This is getting old.

    Brady, I don't really appreciate it, if you always try to save the day in stepping on the feet of those, who are tired of the same ole. Its not that critisme isn't valid, but its about repeating the same ole points over and over and over. What to make of that? Like Willy said, its become more of a desperate effort to convince everybody, then making points out of which you can make a decent conversation.

    I think, its all been said and that is the problem. Its getting tiresome for BOTH sides, I believe.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Germanlady wrote:
    Ahh...could we actually talk about the film now? This is getting old.

    Brady, I don't really appreciate it, if you always try to save the day in stepping on the feet of those, who are tired of the same ole. Its not that critisme isn't valid, but its about repeating the same ole points over and over and over. What to make of that? Like Willy said, its become more of a desperate effort to convince everybody, then making points out of which you can make a decent conversation.

    I think, its all been said and that is the problem. Its getting tiresome for BOTH sides, I believe.
    This thread shouldn't be about arguing, just simple conversation on aspects of the film, like acting and cinematography for example. I don't think it is heroic to want it to end, I just think it's common sense to make the pointless arguments stop. We have had too many Skyfall threads close already, don't let this one join the pack.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,274
    Let's see...

    @jetsetwilly

    Anyone who likes Skyfall are "dumb"? According to you, that's what those who criticize SF think of "anyone" who actually like it.

    You really need to come up with some examples. Can you do that?

    @Germanlady. I find it hilarious that you accuse those who don't agree with you of posting "the same ole points over and over" when you yourself just felt a need to repost jetsetwilly's earlier comment without even commenting on it.

    I see that some really don't want to discuss SF's flaws. I can understand that. But since this is a discussion forum, telling - or advising - other members what they should or shouldn't focus on regarding the movie, either because these other members are very happy about it or frustrated, could backfire.

    So...

    Yes...either give me a large full-blown action adventure with plot holes and not much logic and reason, like most other Bond-movies or give me a more down-to-earth thriller that is intelligently scripted and largely makes sense, like the Bourne-movies.

    Don't just give me a pseudo-thriller like SF, full of illogical "wtf?"-moments, plot holes and plot elements that don't make any sense.
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 6,601
    @Zek - how about the maths? You didn't answer to that. Now THAT might be a fine discussion point.

    @Brady - I believe, its in the human nature to argue, when discussing. Its pro and contra and going from there. Its illusion to believe - at this point, where EVERYTHING and beyond has been already said - a decent discussion can be hold. I doubt it. Its contra, like Zek stared it just AGAIN and someone will post a pro, etc etc etc.

    Its at a dead point now. The film is almost 4 weeks in...
  • edited November 2012 Posts: 3,274
    @Germanlady
    I thought you wanted to discuss the movie and not the maths about the IMDB ranking system? But fair enough, if you think that makes for a better discussion point than the movie itself:
    Germanlady wrote:
    You say, there are 800 reviews on IMDB, of which 1/3 are negative. So - we have a 8,10 rating. With 266 negaive reviews, we would be at around 7.40.
    I was referring to the 800+ users who wrote reviews only. These are usually the passionate ones. I wasn't referring to the score of 8,1 given by 123.000 users at all. You are (it is possible to give a score without reviewing it, you know). And like I said: Of more than 800 user reviews, one third of them are negative. It actually surprises me since these obvisually don't represent the overall consencus.
    Germanlady wrote:
    Its at a dead point now. The film is almost 4 weeks in...
    And OHMMS is 43 years old and is still being discussed as of right now in another thread. I don't see your point.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    Let's see...

    @jetsetwilly

    Anyone who likes Skyfall are "dumb"? According to you, that's what those who criticize SF think of "anyone" who actually like it.

    You really need to come up with some examples. Can you do that?
    It was more a general feeling from the anti-SF gang (you know who you are), with no specific comments as such.

    Either way, you have stated loud and proud that you don't like SF, and you've outlined your reasons why. So there is nothing more to discuss now on that particular subject, unless you are finding it increasingly difficult to understand why fans do like the film, so you keep repeating yourself in the hope some may start to listen to you and change their mind perhaps....?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Germanlady wrote:
    @Zek - how about the maths? You didn't answer to that. Now THAT might be a fine discussion point.

    @Brady - I believe, its in the human nature to argue, when discussing. Its pro and contra and going from there. Its illusion to believe - at this point, where EVERYTHING and beyond has been already said - a decent discussion can be hold. I doubt it. Its contra, like Zek stared it just AGAIN and someone will post a pro, etc etc etc.

    Its at a dead point now. The film is almost 4 weeks in...

    Not much at all has been said between all the arguing.
  • Posts: 6,601

    Not much at all has been said between all the arguing.

    Not true, because this would bash all decent reviews on both sides. But however. Good luck.

  • Posts: 3,274
    @jetsetwilly

    Funny. First you accuse people who criticize SF for something that you cannot back up with any sorts of documentation.

    For the record: Expressing criticism about SF isn't the same thing as expressing criticism about the fans who like SF.

    Then you start guessing on my motives like when you earlier suggested that I "should go back to watching endless repeats of DAD"

    Am I on repeat? Maybe. Maybe not. I can't see any double-postings by me. Maybe just variations of the same points.

    I also see some questions posted by me, left unanswered. You want to silence me, try answering the following with valid argumentation that don't include the word "you":
    Zekidk wrote:
    can someone please point me in the direction of a positive review, explaining to me why SF is a great James Bond-movie, when Mendes clearly wanted to keep the action at a minimum? Are great Bond movies devoid of the usual 3-4 huge action setpieces we are used to? From the 0.13 min mark to to the attack on Skyfall at 1hr55, there's not a single huge action setpiece. That's the entire runtime of QoS. Should I adjust my thinking expecting Bond 24 and 25 to be filed under "drama" or "thriller" and not "action movie"?
  • Posts: 3,327
    Zekidk wrote:
    @jetsetwilly

    Funny. First you accuse people who criticize SF for something that you cannot back up with any sorts of documentation.

    For the record: Expressing criticism about SF isn't the same thing as expressing criticism about the fans who like SF.

    Then you start guessing on my motives like when you earlier suggested that I "should go back to watching endless repeats of DAD"

    Am I on repeat? Maybe. Maybe not. I can't see any double-postings by me. Maybe just variations of the same points.

    I also see some questions posted by me, left unanswered. You want to silence me, try answering the following with valid argumentation that don't include the word "you":
    Zekidk wrote:
    can someone please point me in the direction of a positive review, explaining to me why SF is a great James Bond-movie, when Mendes clearly wanted to keep the action at a minimum? Are great Bond movies devoid of the usual 3-4 huge action setpieces we are used to? From the 0.13 min mark to to the attack on Skyfall at 1hr55, there's not a single huge action setpiece. That's the entire runtime of QoS. Should I adjust my thinking expecting Bond 24 and 25 to be filed under "drama" or "thriller" and not "action movie"?

    There are tons of positive reviews on RT outlining why SF is a great Bond movie. If your argument is that these critics don't understand Bond, then try somewhere closer to home like Graham Rye, who is a huge Bond fan (obviously). His review pretty much says it all - http://www.007magazine.co.uk/bond23/skyfall_review.htm

    But this all a moot point. Who cares what the reviews all say to try and counteract these arguments. It's all personal taste. Do you like the film? No. Do I like the film? Yes.

    You give your reasons for not liking it. Great, well done. We got the point. Now move on to the next subject. Nothing more is to be made on that subject. You've aired your points, flogged it like a dead horse, and everyone on here now knows why you don't like Skyfall - not enough action, and lots of plot holes. Good for you.

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