Two whole years later- No Time To Die. A fitting end to a particular timeline, or a Bond faux pas?

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,043
    echo wrote: »
    How would people have felt if FRWL was the last novel, or YOLT?

    Or With A Mind To Kill, for that matter?

    I don't mind an ambiguous ending, but the last Bond movie was far from that.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,615
    I can't imagine Campbell or Mendes making Bond's death so blatant.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 1,043
    Would Craig have settled for an ambiguous ending though? From what I've read, he pretty much wanted to do the full-on death of Bond scene, or no film at all.
    It was very important to him, so I've heard.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,682
    The kicker for me is Craig needing Bond to die on screen so he could be done with the role instead of just...being done. I would've been much happier if it was left to ambiguity and not explicitly shown.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,128
    He had Madeleine on the island, why make a big deal of taking Mathilde? It was weird that the child bites him, he puts her down and asks if she wants to go. She says yes and he lets her??? What the hell? If he wanted Madeleine I would have thought he would keep the child? Or at least not her just wander around his island.

    Can someone who loves NTTD please explain what was Safin's plan after offing Blofeld? Take over the world? Become rich selling his tech? Wiping out the earth population? To me it was never clear. Except some tankers were coming to an island, to get tech that previously had fit into a small tube and carried in a pocket, what were they going to do with it?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,128
    I can't imagine Campbell or Mendes making Bond's death so blatant.

    Then Craig would sack them, just like he tossed Boyle out. He was determined to get his grand death no matter how it served the story or the series. Too bad when a star thinks he is bigger than the character and can get his vanity ending.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,340
    Definitely a faux pas. Skyfall was the true ending of Craig's run imo.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited March 2023 Posts: 1,615
    thedove wrote: »
    I can't imagine Campbell or Mendes making Bond's death so blatant.

    Then Craig would sack them, just like he tossed Boyle out. He was determined to get his grand death no matter how it served the story or the series. Too bad when a star thinks he is bigger than the character and can get his vanity ending.

    Yeah, I think more like Campbell and Mendes walking out of the film before being fired. I can also imagine the other Bond directors from the older era doing the same. I don't think Fukunaga is really a Bond fan. It shows in the way he directed Craig and even in his choice of weapons and outfits for Bond.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited March 2023 Posts: 24,262
    The pre title sequence is great I absolutely love it, I don't get beyond that part of the film now.

    The first act is good though I don't feel compelled to continue with the film as I know where it is heading.

    Despite me loathing how the film ends and many aspects of the script, in isolation there are good scenes in the second and third acts.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited March 2023 Posts: 9,048
    thedove wrote: »
    I can't imagine Campbell or Mendes making Bond's death so blatant.

    Then Craig would sack them, just like he tossed Boyle out. He was determined to get his grand death no matter how it served the story or the series. Too bad when a star thinks he is bigger than the character and can get his vanity ending.

    You're wrong about Craig sacking Boyle about his "screen death"; absolutely wrong.

    Boyle was released when he refused script doctors punching up his writer's script. He absolutely didn't want any script doctors on board (which for big, tent-pole entertainment is just par for the course). According to those close to the process, the script was a bore and really needed writers that could elevate the plot points and action.

    And once again, if the distributors (who market and sell the film to different markets), had an issue with the death, they could've asked for a better ending.

    They didn't.

    Because it worked narratively.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    echo wrote: »
    How would people have felt if FRWL was the last novel, or YOLT?

    Or With A Mind To Kill, for that matter?

    I don't mind an ambiguous ending, but the last Bond movie was far from that.

    Loved the ending of that book. The whole thing was very LeCarré.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,730
    Okay, to tell the truth I'd have to watch NTTD pretty drunk to enjoy it. Which I will definitely try at some point in future when I have the following day off to recover
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,340
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Okay, to tell the truth I'd have to watch NTTD pretty drunk to enjoy it. Which I will definitely try at some point in future when I have the following day off to recover

    I don't think any amount of booze would get me to enjoy it. :))
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,824
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Okay, to tell the truth I'd have to watch NTTD pretty drunk to enjoy it. Which I will definitely try at some point in future when I have the following day off to recover
    If it helps you to see the truth about how great NTTD really is, you should give it a try. And it's actually magnificent, as a lot of us realize even while sober.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,730
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Okay, to tell the truth I'd have to watch NTTD pretty drunk to enjoy it. Which I will definitely try at some point in future when I have the following day off to recover

    I don't think any amount of booze would get me to enjoy it. :))
    He died to save us.
    To save his family. To make sure they never asked him back. To never say never again.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,340
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Okay, to tell the truth I'd have to watch NTTD pretty drunk to enjoy it. Which I will definitely try at some point in future when I have the following day off to recover

    I don't think any amount of booze would get me to enjoy it. :))
    He died to save us.
    To save his family. To make sure they never asked him back. To never say never again.

    When I want to stop something I stop. I don't go. "Boy I'd like to be annihilated by dodgy cgi missile rain." ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,730
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Okay, to tell the truth I'd have to watch NTTD pretty drunk to enjoy it. Which I will definitely try at some point in future when I have the following day off to recover

    I don't think any amount of booze would get me to enjoy it. :))
    He died to save us.
    To save his family. To make sure they never asked him back. To never say never again.

    When I want to stop something I stop. I don't go. "Boy I'd like to be annihilated by dodgy cgi missile rain." ;)

    Quite.
  • Posts: 2,400
    Still a perfect ending for the Craigverse, still my favourite Bond film and one of my all-time top 25 period.
  • Posts: 1,043
    Still a perfect ending for the Craigverse, still my favourite Bond film and one of my all-time top 25 period.

    The critics and public certainly mostly liked it, and as an action/adventure/romance it's very stylish and well made, and has imagination, (I actually liked the nanobots idea). But for a lot of us it included stuff we didn't want in a Bond film unfortunately.
    I love the first half. It works for me right up till Bond arrives at Maddy's and professes his love, and the kid turns up. Things get to un-Bondian for me, and you can see it's all a set up to get the things ticked off the list for Bond to die.

    It was a seven point plan. Things they needed to do before offing James Bond.

    001, Re-unite with Maddy, the love of his life.
    002, Find his kid, make him DadBond.
    003, Get him infected.
    004, Get him shot to shit.
    005, Save the love of his life. .
    006, Save his kid
    007, Save the world

    And that's it. With the seven-point plan in place, they could work backwards to make sure all that was workable. And just to make sure we knew Bond was brown-bread, we've even got the vital signs clicking off on Q's telly. Perfect!
    A job well done, so to speak.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,615
    Still a perfect ending for the Craigverse, still my favourite Bond film and one of my all-time top 25 period.

    The critics and public certainly mostly liked it, and as an action/adventure/romance it's very stylish and well made, and has imagination, (I actually liked the nanobots idea). But for a lot of us it included stuff we didn't want in a Bond film unfortunately.
    I love the first half. It works for me right up till Bond arrives at Maddy's and professes his love, and the kid turns up. Things get to un-Bondian for me, and you can see it's all a set up to get the things ticked off the list for Bond to die.

    It was a seven point plan. Things they needed to do before offing James Bond.

    001, Re-unite with Maddy, the love of his life.
    002, Find his kid, make him DadBond.
    003, Get him infected.
    004, Get him shot to shit.
    005, Save the love of his life. .
    006, Save his kid
    007, Save the world

    And that's it. With the seven-point plan in place, they could work backwards to make sure all that was workable. And just to make sure we knew Bond was brown-bread, we've even got the vital signs clicking off on Q's telly. Perfect!
    A job well done, so to speak.

    Yeah, that's exactly it. It works as a film on its own. But it doesn't work as a Bond film. Also, I refuse to believe that those who really like the film, weren't shocked at first viewing of the ending. Even if they liked it, Bond's death must have been shocking at first. Maybe after they were shocked, they re-examined it and liked it. But it's really difficult to imagine Bond fans loving the end instantly.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    I loved the end instantly. It just made sense to me, and quite frankly, I couldn’t ever see Craig-Bond ending his tenure any other way.

    Like I said, this is clearly the hero’s journey: we watched his birth, his Calling, the obstacles, his ultimate sacrifice and death. It’s full circle.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,615
    peter wrote: »
    I loved the end instantly. It just made sense to me, and quite frankly, I couldn’t ever see Craig-Bond ending his tenure any other way.

    Like I said, this is clearly the hero’s journey: we watched his birth, his Calling, the obstacles, his ultimate sacrifice and death. It’s full circle.

    Oh, it's nice to know you loved it instantly @peter because it's not easy to imagine someone loving that ending instantly.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    I’m a weirdo that way @SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ 😂.

    But I loved it and it’s become my favourite Bond film.
  • CharmianBondCharmianBond Pett Bottom, Kent
    Posts: 553
    I could guess that Bond was going to die from the way people were skirting around talking about it so I didn't go in completely blind but while I wouldn't say I loved it right from the first viewing I remember being content with it.

    For the reasons others have pointed out, thematically and emotionally it really works for me, and I'm sure a big part of that is because Craig was my Bond. CR asks what happens to the soul of a man who kills and NTTD answers it. This era is sometimes stellar, undoubtedly messy at times but I wouldn't have it any other way.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 1,043
    The 'CraigBond goes full circle' thing could apply to his last three films. That's one of the problems. There was no big plan. Lord of the Rings, it wasn't.
    Skyfall, he's back in M's proper office ready to get back to work. Full circle.
    SPECTRE. He throws away his gun and becomes a civilian. Full circle.

    This is one of the problems with the Craig era. Every film after the first two had to have a bespoke ending, and it ended up with them having nothing else to do than kill him off. They'd done 'back to work' twice, and they'd done retirement too.

    I think most people would have liked Skyfall to be the end of Craig's era.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,730
    The 'CraigBond goes full circle' thing could apply to his last three films. That's one of the problems. There was no big plan. Lord of the Rings, it wasn't.
    Skyfall, he's back in M's proper office ready to get back to work. Full circle.
    SPECTRE. He throws away his gun and becomes a civilian. Full circle.

    This is one of the problems with the Craig era. Every film after the first two had to have a bespoke ending, and it ended up with them having nothing else to do than kill him off. They'd done 'back to work' twice, and they'd done retirement too.

    I think most people would have liked Skyfall to be the end of Craig's era.

    CR was very cool, QOS was too. SF was ludicrous. SP was too, but at least it was a bit of fun as well. NTTD was not even a real movie. It was a 'look what we're doing now' series of 'bold' changes to the formula, loosely strung together. IMO, of course.
  • Posts: 1,707
    If only all previous Bond actors, like Craig, had had the double O's to demand being killed off in their last outing. Could have really changed up OHMSS, DAF, AVTAK, LTK, and DAD. Connery could have led the way by being killed in YOLT only to be resurrected and killed again in DAF. Perhaps killing off Bond will become the new way to end each series. If the producers wish to get really edgy, kill Bond at the end of each film. Whether Bond lives or dies is not a concern of the producers. Audiences will flock to the next film, regardless.
    And in the grand scheme of things it makes no difference as long as the next film makes a profit.

    Lots of opinions in this thread. Few that will change because of what one of us wrote. For me the end of NTTD was the easy way out. I get the analogy of the heroes journey and the guy who died to save his family and the world. All very lofty, but ultimately a typical movie cliche. The bolder and more poignant ending would have been the one in which Bond trades his life as a secret agent for a life of love and retirement. That's more gutsy than death because it is a commitment for the rest of his life.

    This film improves with subsequent showings, but the end does not. It continues to feel arbitrary and misguided.

    My hope for the next series is a fresh start unencumbered by a storyline that will ultimately box in the direction of the series.



  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,048
    I think most people would have liked Skyfall to be the end of Craig's era.

    “Most people”??... Other than half a dozen ppl on this site, I’ve never, ever, ever, heard this claim.

    It’d be nice that people have their opinions, be satisfied with their opinion, without trying to make it a fact. It’s your opinion. Some may agree with it. Others won’t. It’s just an opinion.

    Box office would suggest worldwide success, whether it’s your cup of tea or not.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,610
    I think it'd have impacted me more, had the film felt like it had a sense finality running throughout it, like OHMSS or even Skyfall.

    Had we had a few more solitary moments of Bond reflecting upon his fate, maybe the ending would felt more earned. As it is, it just feels like someone pulled the rug from under you to get a reaction. On first viewing I just felt disappointed they went there, not that Bond had died, if that makes sense.

    I'm glad quite a few members on here appreciate it for what it is though, I'm jealous if anything, because the Craig is my favourite era.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,354
    peter wrote: »
    I loved the end instantly. It just made sense to me, and quite frankly, I couldn’t ever see Craig-Bond ending his tenure any other way.

    Like I said, this is clearly the hero’s journey: we watched his birth, his Calling, the obstacles, his ultimate sacrifice and death. It’s full circle.

    You're in fine company @peter and not a rarity.

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