NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Critical Reaction and Box Office Performance

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Comments

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Given the circumstances
    Posts: 7,346
    Omicron wasn't even prevalent during B25's boxoffice run, spidey has a much harder path, but is crushing it because the film is quality. The demand is higher for spidey now than it ever was before the pandemic, which means you have to ask why the same isn't true for Bond? We can make assumptions about what would or could have happened, or we can accept all we actually have to go on is the numbers, and spidey is doing crazy numbers because regardless of "the circumstances" the demand is there. Bond dropped off, another 100 million between SP and B25, but spidey, released during the same pandemic (with the omicron varient active) has soared to new heights. There's still no explanation for this difference.
  • Posts: 699
    There is a rather easy explanation if you know what happens in NWH.
  • @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Given the circumstances
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,346
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited December 2021 Posts: 4,292
    Omicron wasn't even prevalent during B25's boxoffice run, spidey has a much harder path, but is crushing it because the film is quality. The demand is higher for spidey now than it ever was before the pandemic, which means you have to ask why the same isn't true for Bond? We can make assumptions about what would or could have happened, or we can accept all we actually have to go on is the numbers, and spidey is doing crazy numbers because regardless of "the circumstances" the demand is there. Bond dropped off, another 100 million between SP and B25, but spidey, released during the same pandemic (with the omicron varient active) has soared to new heights. There's still no explanation for this difference.

    You clearly know nothing about what you’re saying. I already gave you the explanation posts above but you are too blinded by your hate. Pathetic.
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 214
    Box Office Mojo has NTTD at 773.7m ww but with no weekend update in the US. Spidey, as expected, sucked all the air out lol

    https://www.boxofficemojo.com/releasegroup/gr1812943365/?ref_=bo_hm_YEARLY_WW_3

  • edited December 2021 Posts: 12,724
    It really is mental how much of a phenomenon Marvel has become. I thought superhero fatigue would have set in by now to be honest, but here we are and they’re still top of the league after all this time and all those films. Really unprescedented, and to be honest I’m not sure we’ll ever see anything like it again. DC seem
    to have given up on their universe and have gone back to stand alones, and even Star Wars has shifted back to a more staggered release schedule again. I know a lot of that is down to how consistent in quality Marvel have been in comparison, but even if the DC films had been better, I don’t know if they’d be able to recreate that effect. Lightning in a bottle. I’m not a fan but you’ve got to give them credit for pulling that off.
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    At the end of the day it outdid predictions and made a lot more than many of us thought it would even pre-pandemic (you weren’t the only one to get it wrong, someone else was predicting 500-600 million, and I didn’t think it’d make this much myself). The US box office was disappointing, but it’s still done very well in very difficult circumstances. It’s not a world wide cultural phenomenon like Marvel, but I think it’s fair to call it a pretty big success.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 22,005
    peter wrote: »
    Yes @matt_u … he’s trying to get a rise. Best to ignore.

    People like that are seemingly frustrated and they want others to feel the same.

    Also, what's with "B25"? The film has a name. Is denying it its name also a form of protest? If so, childishness had reached new heights.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited December 2021 Posts: 4,292
    Guys No Way Home would’ve been a $2B dollar hit if COVID didn’t happened. He’s the most beloved superhero of the world we are talking about a film designed as the greatest hit of the last 19 years of Spider-Man movies. It’s an Endgame kind of event, on a slightly smaller scale. Because of the circumstances, even Spidey will suffer from the pandemic but at least comic book movies benefit from having the less reluctant demographic of all to come back to the theaters. Venom 2, which is total garbage and even worse than the first one, is pulling off numbers perfectly in line with its pre COVID predecessor. Comic book movies are the ones that are suffering less from the pandemic and the main factor is their very young demographic. It’s not my opinion it’s the general opinion of box-office analysts. It’s also just logic.
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 214
    I'll be seeing Spidey 2x this week and getting NTTD on steelbook 4k, so win-win.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Given the circumstances
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,346
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    But I'm not comparing Bond to Marvel or Star Wars, I'm comparing it to Bond. It's the lowest grossing Bond film in a decade, and only just outgrossed qos when adjusted for inflation. There's no sleight of hand, those are the numbers, you can check for yourself.

    (also people had no quarms comparing bond with Marvel films such as black widow. Its only after NWH came out that its suddenly become an unfair comparison.)
  • Posts: 297
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    But I'm not comparing Bond to Marvel or Star Wars, I'm comparing it to Bond. It's the lowest grossing Bond film in a decade, and only just outgrossed qos when adjusted for inflation. There's no sleight of hand, those are the numbers, you can check for yourself.

    (also people had no quarms comparing bond with Marvel films such as black widow. Its only after NWH came out that its suddenly become an unfair comparison.)

    I’m just confused about the point you want to make. Can you clarify what it is you’re getting at?
  • One thing worth noting is that the new Spiderman movie has likely benefitted from the successes of the releases before it. I'm not saying that Spiderman would've done poorly otherwise, nor that it wouldn't have topped Bond if the movie releases were flipped, but rather, it is standing on the consumer confidence built from the movies before it, including NTTD. Word of mouth is a powerful force.
  • JamesStock wrote: »
    One thing worth noting is that the new Spiderman movie has likely benefitted from the successes of the releases before it. I'm not saying that Spiderman would've done poorly otherwise, nor that it wouldn't have topped Bond if the movie releases were flipped, but rather, it is standing on the consumer confidence built from the movies before it, including NTTD. Word of mouth is a powerful force.

    To be fair that could be said for the entire Craig era, especially for SP and NTTD.

    Spider-Man's cinematic journey has been a bit tricky. SM3 kind of soured the brand and the rebooted films with Garfield made less than SM3. The Hollabd films have progressively grossed more and finally crossed the $Billion mark with FFH. NWH will undoubtedly gross more than FFH but as is the intention, the success has been built upon and cultivated.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,292
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    But I'm not comparing Bond to Marvel or Star Wars, I'm comparing it to Bond. It's the lowest grossing Bond film in a decade, and only just outgrossed qos when adjusted for inflation. There's no sleight of hand, those are the numbers, you can check for yourself.

    (also people had no quarms comparing bond with Marvel films such as black widow. Its only after NWH came out that its suddenly become an unfair comparison.)

    Didn’t know the other Craig films came out 22 months after the first trailer dropped because of a pandemic that re shaped the movie industry and made its general core demographic one the most reluctant to come back to a movie theater.
    Still, it’s the 2nd highest grossing Hollywood film of 2021 after Spider-Man.
    You’re a joke mate…
  • edited December 2021 Posts: 12,724
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    But I'm not comparing Bond to Marvel or Star Wars, I'm comparing it to Bond. It's the lowest grossing Bond film in a decade, and only just outgrossed qos when adjusted for inflation. There's no sleight of hand, those are the numbers, you can check for yourself.

    (also people had no quarms comparing bond with Marvel films such as black widow. Its only after NWH came out that its suddenly become an unfair comparison.)

    This decade has been an exceptional one for Bond though, far above how they usually do. I think it would’ve had a good chance of outgrossing SP too in normal circumstances, as it managed it in the UK, but even if it didn’t, why does that mean it isn’t a big success? You’re still holding it to a very high standard set by exceptional performances. And I still don’t see how it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    To be honest I think it’s a bigger surprise that interest hasn’t waned more. Craig has been Bond for sixteen years, all his films have been direct sequels, and we’ve just had a six year gap. NTTD doing so well despite that (and despite all the other factors you seem determined to ignore) shows how popular he still is. I know that’s probably a tough pill for you to swallow, but it’s just getting a bit embarassing at this point.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 565
    Why are you all still feeding the troll?
  • 00Heaven wrote: »
    Why are you all still feeding the troll?

    Because I don’t think he is a troll. Trolls are wind up merchants. I think Mendes genuinely believes the stuff he comes out with. Which is why I responded, but you’re right, waste of time, the record’s been broken for years at this point. He’ll be predicting a flop again when the next Bond isn’t Aidan Turner.
  • Posts: 7,424
    matt_u wrote: »
    You don’t have any point.

    :))
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Given the circumstances
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,346
    Burgess wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    But I'm not comparing Bond to Marvel or Star Wars, I'm comparing it to Bond. It's the lowest grossing Bond film in a decade, and only just outgrossed qos when adjusted for inflation. There's no sleight of hand, those are the numbers, you can check for yourself.

    (also people had no quarms comparing bond with Marvel films such as black widow. Its only after NWH came out that its suddenly become an unfair comparison.)

    I’m just confused about the point you want to make. Can you clarify what it is you’re getting at?

    Because what is the point in even looking at the data if we can't see things in context? If you want to forget that B25 is a part of a series with a rich heritage going back decades with a huge pedigree and view it as its own commercial entity, then you can say it was a success, because it did make its money back. B25 is a success, but in the context of the Craig era, its a middling to lower entry. I don't know whether its the least profitable Craig film, but it's not far from the bottom. That should be a completely uncontroversial statement of fact. You wouldn't try to argue that Dr No was more successful than thunderball, or that TMWTGG is more successful than TSWLM. We know they aren't because we have the figures to prove it. Well, the figures for Craigs films tell us B25 is near the bottom. Except, for some reason, people don't talk about it like this is the case, they present it as if B25 was some kind of smash hit that broke all expectations and absolutely crushed it. Remember, this is the 4th highest grossing film in a tenure of 5 films.
    It seems to me like because Skyfall and Spectre were both bigger hits, that people can't help but try and make B25 to be something bigger than it is. But the numbers are what they are, you can't change it, and that's the only data we have to go off. Once you start taking stabs in the dark at what you think a film should have made, then we might as well throw all the boxoffice stats out the window because you can literally make anything up. But if we are gonna stick to the facts and figures, then it should be uncontroversial to simply state where a movie sits in relation to the tenure of the actor and franchise as a whole. So in answer to your question, the point is to be accurate, and reflective of the actual figures that we have at our disposal, so that the discussion that's leads from it can also be accurate to reality.
  • Interestingly enough, Spidey actor Tom Holland seems keen on becoming Bond.

    I think he's only 5ft 7 though....007 shouldn't be shorter than me.
  • Posts: 5,863
    B25 had no chance at success with that title.
  • BennyBenny Classified Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 13,145
    OMG is this still going on!
    I say we all agree to disagree at this point, and move on. It's just going in circles.
  • Interestingly enough, Spidey actor Tom Holland seems keen on becoming Bond.

    I think he's only 5ft 7 though....007 shouldn't be shorter than me.

    I’m not bothered about height, I think that’s easy to work around, but yeah I don’t think he’s right for Bond at all. Good actor (I remember being really impressed by him in The Impossible when he was just a kid, no surprise he’s doing well), but he’s got one of those faces and voices that’ll have him playing high school/college kids until he’s well into his 30s.

    I do think they should go younger next time though. I think part of the reason Holland is so popular is because of the appeal he has to Gen Z. Bond could probably do with a bit of that, to boost the US numbers up again. And it’d feel very fresh. I’ve always been resistant to the idea of someone too fresh faced doing it, but lately I’ve been thinking they need to shake things up again following Craig, and going younger could be a fun way of doing that. A less seasoned Bond would give it a whole different feel.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Given the circumstances
    Posts: 7,346
    Benny wrote: »
    OMG is this still going on!
    I say we all agree to disagree at this point, and move on. It's just going in circles.

    As you wish.
  • Posts: 297
    Burgess wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe I went back to the start of this thread, because I remembered you predicting a box office disaster. And you did as well, those were your exact words in fact, so it’s no surprise you’re now trying to downplay the film’s success. But I also found this from you, on page 2

    “I think it would be seriously impressive if Bond 25 reached somewhere in the ballpark of 750 - 800 million”

    So, NTTD’s gross would be seriously impressive, in your own words, even if we don’t take the pandemic and all those other factors into account. And we obviously should take the pandemic into account, so, to sum up. NTTD did numbers that would be “seriously impressive” in normal circumstances, while there’s a global pandemic going on, after multiple delays affected everything from marketing (can’t re-release the theme song, and there’s only so many times you can make a new trailer) to the release schedule (Bond was up against Venom, Dune, Eternals). And to top it all off, it’s literally the third highest grossing film of all time in the UK.

    That’s not a reasonable success like LTK. It’s a very big success, and Spiderman being even more successful doesn’t change that.

    Yes, and the context of me saying that is that I would be seriously impressed given the amount of mistakes they have made with production, ie firing Boyle, delays, etc. Because my expectations were so low for the final product. I didn't say that B25 was a mega hit if it made 750 mil, which is a big difference.

    So what you’re saying is you’re impressed ;) I agree it’s not a global mega hit in the age of Marvel and Star Wars breaking all those records. But I don’t think that’s a fair standard to hold Bond to (SF was a perfect storm of a number of factors) and I definitely wouldn’t say it’s at all comparable to LTK.

    But I'm not comparing Bond to Marvel or Star Wars, I'm comparing it to Bond. It's the lowest grossing Bond film in a decade, and only just outgrossed qos when adjusted for inflation. There's no sleight of hand, those are the numbers, you can check for yourself.

    (also people had no quarms comparing bond with Marvel films such as black widow. Its only after NWH came out that its suddenly become an unfair comparison.)

    I’m just confused about the point you want to make. Can you clarify what it is you’re getting at?

    Because what is the point in even looking at the data if we can't see things in context? If you want to forget that B25 is a part of a series with a rich heritage going back decades with a huge pedigree and view it as its own commercial entity, then you can say it was a success, because it did make its money back. B25 is a success, but in the context of the Craig era, its a middling to lower entry. I don't know whether its the least profitable Craig film, but it's not far from the bottom. That should be a completely uncontroversial statement of fact. You wouldn't try to argue that Dr No was more successful than thunderball, or that TMWTGG is more successful than TSWLM. We know they aren't because we have the figures to prove it. Well, the figures for Craigs films tell us B25 is near the bottom. Except, for some reason, people don't talk about it like this is the case, they present it as if B25 was some kind of smash hit that broke all expectations and absolutely crushed it. Remember, this is the 4th highest grossing film in a tenure of 5 films.
    It seems to me like because Skyfall and Spectre were both bigger hits, that people can't help but try and make B25 to be something bigger than it is. But the numbers are what they are, you can't change it, and that's the only data we have to go off. Once you start taking stabs in the dark at what you think a film should have made, then we might as well throw all the boxoffice stats out the window because you can literally make anything up. But if we are gonna stick to the facts and figures, then it should be uncontroversial to simply state where a movie sits in relation to the tenure of the actor and franchise as a whole. So in answer to your question, the point is to be accurate, and reflective of the actual figures that we have at our disposal, so that the discussion that's leads from it can also be accurate to reality.

    I’ll just say that your plea for facts and figures seems insincere when your analysis begins and ends with one movie making more than another. That matters of course, but you willfully ignore the nuance in how COVID-19 affects demographic habits and how changes in release dates and marketing activation affected NTTD.

    NTTD was never going o make the kind of money that NWH is making so the comparison is apples to oranges when you dig below the surface. Relative success matters too, and NTTD’s position as the second biggest Hollywood film of the year should be looked at in relation to COVID, the Craig era as a whole and other competitors.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,846
    Being the second largest film worldwide with over $700m doesn’t look too bad, no matter how you try to slice it in order to push a narrative that makes NTTD look unfavorable.

    Nice try.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 6,523
    @Burgess , Mendes won't be logical in his arguments; he has Craig/Broccoli Derangement Syndrome and will push and pull the goalposts in whichever direction that makes him feel comfortable in his irrational mission to skew reality.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 22,005
    peter wrote: »
    @Burgess , Mendes won't be logical in his arguments; he has Craig/Broccoli Derangement Syndrome and will push and pull the goalposts in whichever direction that makes him feel comfortable in his irrational mission to skew reality.

    Mendes won't even call NTTD by its name as a form of protest, so he clearly doesn't want to be taken seriously. He predicted this film was going to tank long before the first scene was shot. It hasn't, and now he's doing what he can to save face, all the while making things worse for himself. Call NTTD "B25"; yeah, that'll show them! What's next, a my-dad-versus-your-dad fight from when we were 5? After the hilarious chapter of the hater who weighed in without actually having seen the film, here's another laughable display of childishness: deny the film its name.

    Evidently, we can move on, as @Benny requested.

    What I'm interested in is how the Craig era will be critically received in a few years. It's interesting to see how thoughts on some of Pierces films have continued to change. There's actual love and praise for DAD now, something that would have seemed unthinkable 18 years ago. By contrast, GE has lost some ground. NTTD is neither being unanimously praised, nor hated. So will the polarised views remain or not? In ten years from now, assuming another Bond film or two have been made, how will people look back on these films?
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    What I'm interested in is how the Craig era will be critically received in a few years. It's interesting to see how thoughts on some of Pierces films have continued to change. There's actual love and praise for DAD now, something that would have seemed unthinkable 18 years ago. By contrast, GE has lost some ground. NTTD is neither being unanimously praised, nor hated. So will the polarised views remain or not? In ten years from now, assuming another Bond film or two have been made, how will people look back on these films?

    I think general audiences will continue to look back on Craig fondly, just as they did Brosnan.

    On sites like this though, and in ranking lists on movie sites and things like that, then I think we could possibly see something similar to what happened with the Brosnan films, on a slightly lesser scale. If the next Bond does go in a very different direction (lets say lighter, more “classic”, just Bond on a mission) then it’ll feel very fresh and new, and the Craig era might suddenly seem a bit dated to some. The gritty reboot days, glad we’ve moved on from that. But I don’t think it’ll be as bad as it was for Brosnan when CR came out, because the Craig era is generally more highly regarded anyway. And as with Brosnan, eventually, things will swing back the other way, and he’ll be reappraised. It’s cyclical I think. Kids who grew up with those films grow up, people who hated them at the time gradually soften and start to appreciate them for what they are.

    Of course that hinges on the next guy being good though. If they did miscast it badly and the film was awful, then people would probably be pining for Craig. But I’m fairly confident that won’t happen, I don’t think they’ve ever miscast Bond, and they’ve got a pretty great track record for first films of a new era. It always seem to really energise them and have them firing on all cylinders.
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