Lashana Lynch as 007 and the Women of 'No Time to Die' (SPOILERS!)

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  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,735
    As long as James Bond's not revealed to have been a lizard all along I'll be happy enough with any eventuality. 🦎
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    edited September 5 Posts: 31,021
    BMB007 wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I’m just hoping they don’t pull a Masters Of The Universe and kill off Bond in the first half hour and have the rest of the film be about the strong liberated no nonsense female character.

    Grow up

    No need to be rude, he's voicing a legitimate concern that you don't agree with. No one on here should be brow-beaten into silence. I'm sick of that stuff and I will curtail it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    edited September 5 Posts: 4,726
    Frankly Aston doesn’t even know what he’s talking about in regards to Masters of the Universe. It just sounds like he’s regurgitating talking points of the Fandom Menace who seems to enjoy being outraged.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    Posts: 31,021
    Frankly Aston doesn’t even know what he’s talking about in regards to Masters of the Universe. It just sounds like he’s regurgitating talking points of the Fandom Menace who seems to enjoy being outraged.

    I’m not sure what the reference is about.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    edited September 5 Posts: 4,726
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Frankly Aston doesn’t even know what he’s talking about in regards to Masters of the Universe. It just sounds like he’s regurgitating talking points of the Fandom Menace who seems to enjoy being outraged.

    I’m not sure what the reference is about.

    There’s a story arc in the new Master of the Universe series where He-Man heroically sacrifices himself and is temporarily killed for a few episodes, but YouTubers like Doomcock and Midnight’s Edge (who are part of the so called Fandom Menace) have been calling that a devious feminist agenda of sorts because there was a female character trying to step up after He Man’s demise. The story arc wasn’t even finished yet, but those YouTubers were crying “misandry!” because they know there’s a segment of fandom that gets instantly triggered by terms like “woke” and “feminist” and that drives up YouTube views.

    It’s incredibly calculated and exploitive of “male fragility”. And Aston strikes me as someone that fell for that narrative.

  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    Posts: 31,021
    I see.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    edited September 5 Posts: 31,021
    Well, like I’ve said here many times, argue the issues without getting personal, regardless of temptation. No one ever changes opinion or responds thoughtfully when confronted in that way.
  • edited September 5 Posts: 1,092
    JamesStock wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    After the last round of trailers, I'm leaning towards her not having been assigned the 007 moniker. I believe that was a red herring.
    Thank you! I'm quite tired of reading people treating 'Nomi is 007' as a undisputed fact and then going on endless rants about wokeness (mostly from this rumor and the one line Lynch delivers in the trailer).

    I realize I am in the minority in this belief, but I also was when everyone was claiming Spectre was going to be OHMSS 2.0.

    Agreed, and even if she is 007, all this “wokeness” mania is from tabloid drivel made to agitate and button-push to drive clicks. From what everything I’ve read from Lashana, Cary, Phoebe, etc. there’s more to Nomi than the tabloids and her demeanour in the trailer would indicate. In fact, it seems like some of the bravado that is rubbing people the wrong way is SUPPOSED to play that way. Let’s watch the movie before we take out the pitchforks and get our undies in a knot. Unfortunately, I know the ship had sailed for some the moment Lashana and her character were announced and those people probably won’t give her a fair shot purely out of a desire to be right (or desire to dislike this character) superseding the desire to enjoy the film.

    On your second point though, I do think Spectre is OHMSS 2.0, it’s just a terrible one 😂.
  • I've also been thinking Nomi may not be 007. Aside from the point that it's unlikely that they would take her number away and give it back to Bond, I don't think the specific 007 designation has ever been a particular point of pride for Bond--the branding/logo is obviously not an in-world thing. It would be a bit odd to have any significant dialogue or sub-plot relating to some irritation Bond has about someone having "his" number years later, wouldn't it?
    mtm wrote: »

    I've not seen it happen yet ;)

    That's because it's also possible to be the equal opposite of the hyperbolic "anti-woke" caricature. :))
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Enemy of the state
    Posts: 41,590
    I've also been thinking Nomi may not be 007. Aside from the point that it's unlikely that they would take her number away and give it back to Bond, I don't think the specific 007 designation has ever been a particular point of pride for Bond--the branding/logo is obviously not an in-world thing. It would be a bit odd to have any significant dialogue or sub-plot relating to some irritation Bond has about someone having "his" number years later, wouldn't it?

    Exactly. To Bond it would be as meaningful as someone taking over his phone number. A non-existing concern.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython "I want you looking FABULOUS."
    Posts: 4,726
    I don’t think Bond gets his number back. This is it for Craig Bond’s run. If Nomi is 007, she presumably keeps it in Craig’s timeline. Regarding Bond 26, Bond will be 007 per reboot.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 5 Posts: 8,389
    JamesStock wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    After the last round of trailers, I'm leaning towards her not having been assigned the 007 moniker. I believe that was a red herring.
    Thank you! I'm quite tired of reading people treating 'Nomi is 007' as a undisputed fact and then going on endless rants about wokeness (mostly from this rumor and the one line Lynch delivers in the trailer).

    I realize I am in the minority in this belief, but I also was when everyone was claiming Spectre was going to be OHMSS 2.0.

    Agreed, and even if she is 007, all this “wokeness” mania is from tabloid drivel made to agitate and button-push to drive clicks. From what everything I’ve read from Lashana, Cary, Phoebe, etc. there’s more to Nomi than the tabloids and her demeanour in the trailer would indicate. In fact, it seems like some of the bravado that is rubbing people the wrong way is SUPPOSED to play that way. Let’s watch the movie before we take out the pitchforks and get our undies in a knot. Unfortunately, I know the ship had sailed for some the moment Lashana and her character were announced and those people probably won’t give her a fair shot purely out of a desire to be right (or desire to dislike this character) superseding the desire to enjoy the film.

    +1 Great post
    I've also been thinking Nomi may not be 007. Aside from the point that it's unlikely that they would take her number away and give it back to Bond, I don't think the specific 007 designation has ever been a particular point of pride for Bond--the branding/logo is obviously not an in-world thing. It would be a bit odd to have any significant dialogue or sub-plot relating to some irritation Bond has about someone having "his" number years later, wouldn't it?

    This Bond doesn’t care outwardly about anything, it’s not really his style; but making her 007 would take it one step closer to him, make it a little more personal. I think if she’s not 007 then it’s a missed dramatic opportunity.
    mtm wrote: »

    I've not seen it happen yet ;)

    That's because it's also possible to be the equal opposite of the hyperbolic "anti-woke" caricature. :))

    I expect it is, that’s nothing to do with what I said though. At the point we’re at, ‘woke’ is pretty much a term of hyperbole in itself.
    I don’t think Bond gets his number back. This is it for Craig Bond’s run. If Nomi is 007, she presumably keeps it in Craig’s timeline. Regarding Bond 26, Bond will be 007 per reboot.

    Yep, it’s hard to see any circumstances where he would get it back, and I doubt he rejoins MI6 full time. Maybe they both get called 007 like in the Niven CR :D
  • edited September 5 Posts: 998
    I think Lynch has refered to Nomi as having some bravado, actually. Not only will she definitely stop being irritating at some point, we'll likely learn something of the source of that bravado.
    mtm wrote: »
    I expect it is, that’s nothing to do with what I said though. At the point we’re at, ‘woke’ is pretty much a term of hyperbole in itself.

    I was referring to the apparent inability to have ever detected fair points about overreach among members of one's own tribe, and a seeming inability to even imagine such overreach.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 5 Posts: 8,389
    I think Lynch has refered to Nomi as having some bravado, actually. Not only will she definitely stop being irritating at some point, we'll likely learn something of the source of that bravado.
    mtm wrote: »
    I expect it is, that’s nothing to do with what I said though. At the point we’re at, ‘woke’ is pretty much a term of hyperbole in itself.

    I was referring to the apparent inability to have ever detected fair points about overreach among members of one's own tribe, and a seeming inability to even imagine such overreach.

    Indeed, and you’ll notice I said I expect that’s true, but still nothing to do with what I said. ‘Woke’ is a term of innate hyperbole which just replaces the discussion topic of ‘progress’. To use the term is to be hyperbolic.

    I still wonder why Nomi hasn’t been a surname in publicity. Is there something being hidden (like ‘Eve’ in Skyfall) or is it just Eon’s style? I guess the other guest characters are all known by one name too.
  • MalloryMallory Are you ready to get back to work?
    Posts: 1,444
    @mdm It’s a Craig era thing.

    Solange
    Fields
    Camille
    Eve
    Severine
    Paloma
    Nomi

    Etc...
  • edited September 5 Posts: 998
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Lynch has refered to Nomi as having some bravado, actually. Not only will she definitely stop being irritating at some point, we'll likely learn something of the source of that bravado.
    mtm wrote: »
    I expect it is, that’s nothing to do with what I said though. At the point we’re at, ‘woke’ is pretty much a term of hyperbole in itself.

    I was referring to the apparent inability to have ever detected fair points about overreach among members of one's own tribe, and a seeming inability to even imagine such overreach.

    Indeed, and you’ll notice I said I expect that’s true, but still nothing to do with what I said. ‘Woke’ is a term of innate hyperbole which just replaces the discussion topic of ‘progress’. To use the term is to be hyperbolic.

    Well, you make an assumption that attacks on "wokism" are attacks on "progress". You don't seem to consider that the "woke" moniker, which was not invented by opponents, is meant to refer exclusively to overreaching or silly levels of social justice activism. And just as some may mischaracterize actual progress as being silly and woke, others mischaracterize critics of actual silliness as critics of progress. Equal opposites: people think that folks standing slightly left or right of them are no different to more extreme versions and are providing cover for them. This is relevant to your suggestion that you've never heard a legitimate critique of anything falling under this "woke" umbrella.

    You'll recall our previous conversation about my finding the overly-contrived diversity casting of Rogue One annoying. Despite my saying that the problem would disappear if they had cast fewer white people, my opinion was characterized as "making excuses" for "not wanting to see BAME people onscreen", which is obviously ridiculous. There are folks on both sides tilting at windmills and assuming the worst about everything.

    I entered this discussion critiquing an anti-woke view, but instead of seeing an ally, you seem to have seen an opportunity to suggest that I'm no different to a position I dismissed as "caricature". It'd be nice to see less of the "brow-beating" @Birdleson mentioned.
    mtm wrote: »

    I still wonder why Nomi hasn’t been a surname in publicity. Is there something being hidden (like ‘Eve’ in Skyfall) or is it just Eon’s style? I guess the other guest characters are all known by one name too.

    I've wondered this too. Nomi and Paloma are, I think, the only characters without surnames. The male characters all have them, I'm pretty sure....
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 11,528
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t think Bond gets his number back. This is it for Craig Bond’s run. If Nomi is 007, she presumably keeps it in Craig’s timeline. Regarding Bond 26, Bond will be 007 per reboot.

    Yep, it’s hard to see any circumstances where he would get it back, and I doubt he rejoins MI6 full time. Maybe they both get called 007 like in the Niven CR :D
    Let's also consider that Bond could spare Safin's life if he agrees to make a clone of both Bond and Nomi. That way they can both be 007 and not-007 at the same time.
  • QBranch wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t think Bond gets his number back. This is it for Craig Bond’s run. If Nomi is 007, she presumably keeps it in Craig’s timeline. Regarding Bond 26, Bond will be 007 per reboot.

    Yep, it’s hard to see any circumstances where he would get it back, and I doubt he rejoins MI6 full time. Maybe they both get called 007 like in the Niven CR :D
    Let's also consider that Bond could spare Safin's life if he agrees to make a clone of both Bond and Nomi. That way they can both be 007 and not-007 at the same time.

    :)) If this film can resemble DAF in any way, I'm all for it!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Enemy of the state
    Posts: 41,590
    QBranch wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t think Bond gets his number back. This is it for Craig Bond’s run. If Nomi is 007, she presumably keeps it in Craig’s timeline. Regarding Bond 26, Bond will be 007 per reboot.

    Yep, it’s hard to see any circumstances where he would get it back, and I doubt he rejoins MI6 full time. Maybe they both get called 007 like in the Niven CR :D
    Let's also consider that Bond could spare Safin's life if he agrees to make a clone of both Bond and Nomi. That way they can both be 007 and not-007 at the same time.

    He should also make a few clones of Paloma.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 11,528
    QBranch wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don’t think Bond gets his number back. This is it for Craig Bond’s run. If Nomi is 007, she presumably keeps it in Craig’s timeline. Regarding Bond 26, Bond will be 007 per reboot.

    Yep, it’s hard to see any circumstances where he would get it back, and I doubt he rejoins MI6 full time. Maybe they both get called 007 like in the Niven CR :D
    Let's also consider that Bond could spare Safin's life if he agrees to make a clone of both Bond and Nomi. That way they can both be 007 and not-007 at the same time.
    He should also make a few clones of Paloma.
    10514600.jpg
    Get her away from him!
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 333
    QBranch wrote: »
    Let's also consider that Bond could spare Safin's life if he agrees to make a clone of both Bond and Nomi. That way they can both be 007 and not-007 at the same time.

    A sort of Schrödinger's 007 :D.
  • I've also been thinking Nomi may not be 007. Aside from the point that it's unlikely that they would take her number away and give it back to Bond, I don't think the specific 007 designation has ever been a particular point of pride for Bond--the branding/logo is obviously not an in-world thing. It would be a bit odd to have any significant dialogue or sub-plot relating to some irritation Bond has about someone having "his" number years later, wouldn't it?

    Exactly. To Bond it would be as meaningful as someone taking over his phone number. A non-existing concern.

    I'm imagining Bond sitting at his desk, turning the sevens on printed material into little guns, just like EON's logo. :)) "What the hell can I do with a 004?!"
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 333
    Exactly. To Bond it would be as meaningful as someone taking over his phone number. A non-existing concern.

    I'm imagining Bond sitting at his desk, turning the sevens on printed material into little guns, just like EON's logo. :)) "What the hell can I do with a 004?!"

    Agreed. Look - Bond knows the job he does and that he's very much expendable. The number is too. I think he made his peace with it the minute Le Chiffre thwapped his knackers around. He may have one little minor 5 to 10 second gripe (albeit, quite possibly internal), but it's not going to be made out to be an all singing and dancing part of the movie like "ha ha, I have your number, you do not."
  • Posts: 782
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Well, like I’ve said here many times, argue the issues without getting personal, regardless of temptation. No one ever changes opinion or responds thoughtfully when confronted in that way.

    Thank you!

  • edited September 5 Posts: 998
    007 or not, I'd love it if Nomi loses and abuses her gadgets, and sleeps with a bunch of guys to get information, and Bond could find it all somewhat distasteful. A fun bit of hypocrisy a la Q tossing his radio broom in LTK...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 5 Posts: 8,389
    Mallory wrote: »
    @mdm It’s a Craig era thing.

    Solange
    Fields
    Camille
    Eve
    Severine
    Paloma
    Nomi

    Etc...

    Yes I think you're right. Bit weird, really.
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Lynch has refered to Nomi as having some bravado, actually. Not only will she definitely stop being irritating at some point, we'll likely learn something of the source of that bravado.
    mtm wrote: »
    I expect it is, that’s nothing to do with what I said though. At the point we’re at, ‘woke’ is pretty much a term of hyperbole in itself.

    I was referring to the apparent inability to have ever detected fair points about overreach among members of one's own tribe, and a seeming inability to even imagine such overreach.

    Indeed, and you’ll notice I said I expect that’s true, but still nothing to do with what I said. ‘Woke’ is a term of innate hyperbole which just replaces the discussion topic of ‘progress’. To use the term is to be hyperbolic.

    Well, you make an assumption that attacks on "wokism" are attacks on "progress".

    I do, yes, because it is. Or attacks on diversity.
    Just because it's occasionally done clumsily is no reason to be suspicious of it or to be 'anti' it, any more so than a Bond fan who didn't enjoy the way Spectre was made should be suspicious of the whole idea of Bond films.
    You don't seem to consider that the "woke" moniker, which was not invented by opponents, is meant to refer exclusively to overreaching or silly levels of social justice activism. And just as some may mischaracterize actual progress as being silly and woke, others mischaracterize critics of actual silliness as critics of progress. Equal opposites: people think that folks standing slightly left or right of them are no different to more extreme versions and are providing cover for them. This is relevant to your suggestion that you've never heard a legitimate critique of anything falling under this "woke" umbrella.

    You'll recall our previous conversation about my finding the overly-contrived diversity casting of Rogue One annoying. Despite my saying that the problem would disappear if they had cast fewer white people, my opinion was characterized as "making excuses" for "not wanting to see BAME people onscreen", which is obviously ridiculous. There are folks on both sides tilting at windmills and assuming the worst about everything.

    Is it though? The characters in Star Wars are supposed to all come from different planets- one of them is even a seven-foot dog. Two of them are robots. But somehow the idea that some of them being women or BAME is too much? That's too diverse? It's a bit rum isn't it. Was Mads Mikkelson too Danish?
    What is the solution to your complaint about Rogue One? How would you fix the casting in it to feel less contrived to you? Is there an answer to that which feels good to say?
    I entered this discussion critiquing an anti-woke view, but instead of seeing an ally, you seem to have seen an opportunity to suggest that I'm no different to a position I dismissed as "caricature". It'd be nice to see less of the "brow-beating" @Birdleson mentioned.

    Don't invent arguments in order to try to draft allies please.
    007 or not, I'd love it if Nomi loses and abuses her gadgets, and sleeps with a bunch of guys to get information, and Bond could find it all somewhat distasteful. A fun bit of hypocrisy a la Q tossing his radio broom in LTK...

    That would be great! :D

  • edited September 5 Posts: 998
    mtm wrote: »
    I do, yes, because it is. Or attacks on diversity.

    What is the solution to your complaint about Rogue One? How would you fix the casting in it to feel less contrived to you? Is there an answer to that which feels good to say?

    @-)
    Sure, the one I mentioned: they could not have the white actors. But in lieu of clogging up the thread with this rubbish, I'm always game for an absolutist brow-beating by PM.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 5 Posts: 8,389
    mtm wrote: »
    I do, yes, because it is. Or attacks on diversity.

    What is the solution to your complaint about Rogue One? How would you fix the casting in it to feel less contrived to you? Is there an answer to that which feels good to say?

    @-)
    Sure, the one I mentioned: they could not have the white actors.

    You don't like having white and non-white actors together? I just find it a struggle to get into this mindset. And you wouldn’t watch an all-white version?
    As I said: they had the seven foot dog with white actors. And the Danish one too.
    But in lieu of clogging up the thread with this rubbish, I'm always game for an absolutist brow-beating by PM.

    I doubt I'll read it to be honest, I barely did last time.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited September 5 Posts: 4,625
    For me personally, the frustration lies in that the term "woke" has just become a blanket statement and has allowed for unfair criticism to be at the forefront before these pieces for media have even been given a chance. It seems to just be a way for some to try and stop diversity and inclusivity from going any further because, before a piece of media has even had a chance to prove itself in what it's trying to do, it has over the top headlines and angry ranting videos calling out the "wokeness", when ten years ago, the casting of a black woman in the role of an agent, no matter whether she's 007 or not, would've just happened and people would've judged for whatever it was.

    It's like the chicken and the egg. Are the film's choices really "leftist" or "feminist propaganda", therefore incredibly "woke", or have people just created a term that allows them to create unfair criticisms so that they can avoid any kind of positive change or even just natural decision making on the part of filmmakers?

    Let's not forget, people of different ethnicities or even strong female characters aren't new to the franchise. Yes, the franchise isn't innocent in perpetuating views that are no longer accepted in most societies today, but at this point in time, how do people know that the character Nomi isn't just a natural addition to the franchise? Because now, in 2021 following the #MeToo movement and Hollywood's attempts at progress in terms of race and sex, opposing audiences now have this term that creates this cage of argument around anything that resembles strong female characters? If that makes sense.

    Now, don't get me wrong I understand there are cases where Hollywood just seems to be checking boxes, but these criticisms have now become such a juggernaut of opposition that it is just going to stunt any kind of process to the point where those who are against these choices have shot themselves in the foot before they've even seen whats on offer. And it's already happened with a lot of media recently.

    Again, I hope what I've said makes sense.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson San Jose, CAModerator
    Posts: 31,021
    Makes your point very well.
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