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Dalton as Bond: TLD vs. LTK

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  • GetafixGetafix
    edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    I don't personally see the tonal difference between Moore and Dalton as being quite as huge as some people make out. On the contrary, TLD is very much in the late Roger vein. LTK is a different matter but I've never been convinced that Dalton was completely happy with the style or tone of that film.

    LTK may have been written for Dalton but it was not a direction that he was particularly pushing for. He was not like Craig being consulted on the script every five minutes - he received it a couple of weeks before filming. I think it's one of the great myths that has emerged around Dalton that he wanted the films to go down this darker route. I don't think that's actually true at all. I think he wanted the balance between light and dark to change but he was not seeking a complete tonal shift. He is on record saying he wanted his third film to be more light hearted. As Bain says, I'm not sure he was all that happy with LTK.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Getafix wrote:
    He was not like Craig being consulted on the script every five minutes - he received it a couple of weeks before filming.
    He participated in the Bond movies under the agreement that they'd be 'closer to Fleming' whatever that was interpreted as at the time. He also got to NIX scenes that offended him, as well as help write dialogue for LTK as the writer's strike was limiting re-writes from the actual writers. No, he did not have nearly as much input as Craig does, and I do suspect that he was ultimately let down by the end result of LTK.

  • SJK91SJK91
    Posts: 1,310
    This is a match-up in which I have long thought about. I think LTK was written more for Dalton in theory, but TLD is a superior film in most aspects (minus villains and Felix of course).

    I say LTK was written for Dalton in theory, because there are also some scenes and aspects in the film that simply have no business being there or hit the wrong note. Much of the pre-titles sequence is over-acted by both Dalton and Hedison. ("Okay! But strictly as an OBSERVER!" or "Let's go FISHING!") Also, take a look at that bar fight scene; it's just silly and doesn't fit in with most of what it has preceded. At the same time there are some other scenes in LTK that Dalton hits the right note. (Initial meeting with Sanchez, "Make a sound...and you're dead!" etc.)

    By default, however, I'm going to give his better performance to TLD. It's a film that I enjoy more and Dalton seems to be a little more constant in it.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    I don't personally see the tonal difference between Moore and Dalton as being quite as huge as some people make out. On the contrary, TLD is very much in the late Roger vein. LTK is a different matter but I've never been convinced that Dalton was completely happy with the style or tone of that film.

    LTK may have been written for Dalton but it was not a direction that he was particularly pushing for. He was not like Craig being consulted on the script every five minutes - he received it a couple of weeks before filming. I think it's one of the great myths that has emerged around Dalton that he wanted the films to go down this darker route. I don't think that's actually true at all. I think he wanted the balance between light and dark to change but he was not seeking a complete tonal shift. He is on record saying he wanted his third film to be more light hearted. As Bain says, I'm not sure he was all that happy with LTK.

    I think Dalton wanted a "more serious" route but I'm not sure sure LTK did it in the right way. It seems Tim ultimately recognised this - hence why he apparently preferrs TLD. LTK has a very "American" "this time its personal" way about it. Thats my point.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    But the great thing about LTK is that it really was "this time it's personal", it hadn't really been done in Bond before.

    That's what bothers me about the last few films in a way. They've all been personal. It's "this time it's personal... again", it's not original anymore. Every film since LTK has been personal in some way. Even TND had the Paris stuff.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Even TND had the Paris stuff.
    Yeah, but Bond, being the b**tard that he is, didn't let the 'personal' last all that long. A kiss & a short boo-hoo, then back to the fight.



  • ReganRegan
    Posts: 173
    I just can't decide. They're both fantastic performances. Honestly I've sat here thinking about it for a good few minutes and it's way too hard for me to do. I suppose that if I had to decide at gunpoint I'd choose LTK just because he really made it personal, and the dramatic strength was just so engrossing. I was absorbed in him all through the movie, it was more self contained to him as Bond and I think he truly took the character to uncharted territories. It was ballsy to a t, and because he made it so believable, the payoff was incredible.
  • 001001
    Posts: 1,575
    Easily TLD. Maybe because i think it's a much better film than LTK.
  • 00130013
    Posts: 1,817
    Both performances are great in my opinion. Sure LTK had more emotional moments and the confrontation with M is very intense but TLD too, specially the one with Pushkin.
    Can't just pick one...
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,350
    At a push, I'd pick Licence To Kill.
  • SharkySharky
    Posts: 266
    I think The Living Daylights is the better film but i think his performance in Licence To Kill is slightly better. As someone else mentioned earlier there was more for him to get his teeth into. He is good in both though and it would've been intresting to see what direction his 3rd film would've gone in.
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    He was great in both- but TLD still had bits of Moore's style lingering in it, while LTK allowed Dalton to really be 'his' Bond, so that gets my vote
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I get what you mean but I'd say there are even a few "Moore-esque" bits in LTK-The Q scene-The bar fight-Bond doing the two-wheeler in the truck
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited December 2012 Posts: 12,837
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I get what you mean but I'd say there are even a few "Moore-esque" bits in LTK-The Q scene-The bar fight-Bond doing the two-wheeler in the truck

    I don't think any of those bits were Moore esque.

    The Q scene, almost every Bond has one. I like the Q scene in LTK, Dalton has one of his funniest lines there.

    The bar fight, not sure how that was like a Moore film. It's not really comedic. That's another bit I like, the look on Bonds face when Pam has a bigger gun than him is great and the fight itself was pretty cool.

    The two wheeler was just a great stunt.
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I get what you mean but I'd say there are even a few "Moore-esque" bits in LTK-The Q scene-The bar fight-Bond doing the two-wheeler in the truck
    Ha, fair point- I had forgotten about those parts :D
    Especially that giant swordfish through the chair; I can almost picture ol' Moore's face with the giant eyes! :))
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    Like I said, the differences between the Dalton and Moore eras are way exagerated on here. Dalton was in the Connery and Moore tradition. Bain is completely right. He did his own thing but he was not reinventing the wheel. For me it's one of the reasons I liked Dalton and regard his films as being the last two proper Bond movies before the series collapsed into tick-box drearyness, partial recovery with DC and recent collapse again with P+W's tick-box laughably bad SF.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited December 2012 Posts: 12,837
    Getafix wrote:
    Like I said, the differences between the Dalton and Moore eras are way exagerated on here. Dalton was in the Connery and Moore tradition. Bain is completely right. He did his own thing but he was not reinventing the wheel.

    That's what I like about him. He was more serious and darker than the Bonds before him but he was still Bond. In QOS, I felt like they'd taken the serious angle too far and it parts of it didn't even feel like a Bond film.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Like I said, the differences between the Dalton and Moore eras are way exagerated on here. Dalton was in the Connery and Moore tradition. Bain is completely right. He did his own thing but he was not reinventing the wheel.

    That's what I like about him. He was more serious and darker than the Bonds before him but he was still Bond. In QOS, I felt like they'd taken the serious angle too far and it parts of it didn't even feel like a Bond film.

    I agree with you 100% about Dalts. Like Moore before him, Dalton took the template and stretched it in a direction that suited him, but he was still in the same tradition.

    I know I'm in a minority of about 2 or 3 on here, but QoS was for me the best post-Cubby Bond film. It's not a classic, but it does what it sets out too do without to much fuss or pretentiousness and actually has (IMO), some truly Bondian moments. CR has a good performance from Craig and I respect the film but have never really come to love it. You know my views on SF - I think I might even place TND above it.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I kind of feel sorry for Dalton to be honest. Kill was serious but perhaps lacked a bit of that "Bond touch" at times and slipped into "action movie" territory. Ultimately it seemed Dalton knew this. In regard to Quantum I would say that had an element of pretentiousness to it. The idea of "action scenes to reflect the four elements" sounds a bit arty to me and not ideal for the Bond world.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    I love TLD and it was my first cinema visit for Bond as a teenager.

    But I equally love TLK for it's darker tone and diving into new territory for Bond even though elements were taken from the novels LALD and CR.

    I think Dalton gives a fascinating portrayal in both. But he was not expecting and neither were EON that it would be his last Bond film. That damn 6 year legal battle screwed up a scorcher for the franchise. I think we were just getting started and Dalton would have got even better with another few films.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I kind of feel sorry for Dalton to be honest. Kill was serious but perhaps lacked a bit of that "Bond touch" at times and slipped into "action movie" territory. Ultimately it seemed Dalton knew this.

    You're right. I find it odd that so many people believe that this was the direction Dalton wanted to go in. I think he was happier with the balance of TLD. The opening sequence in Prague is one of the best in the series and IMO beats anything in LTK.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    I love TLD, it was my first Bond film, but I think LTK has a better story and a better villian that puts it ahead.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I kind of feel sorry for Dalton to be honest. Kill was serious but perhaps lacked a bit of that "Bond touch" at times and slipped into "action movie" territory. Ultimately it seemed Dalton knew this.
    You're right. I find it odd that so many people believe that this was the direction Dalton wanted to go in. I think he was happier with the balance of TLD. The opening sequence in Prague is one of the best in the series and IMO beats anything in LTK.
    Agreed. I know I criticise Dalton sometimes but I do like his "stuff my orders/"whoever she was I must have scared the living daylights out of her" scene in the car
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited December 2012 Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Like I said, the differences between the Dalton and Moore eras are way exagerated on here. Dalton was in the Connery and Moore tradition. Bain is completely right. He did his own thing but he was not reinventing the wheel.

    That's what I like about him. He was more serious and darker than the Bonds before him but he was still Bond. In QOS, I felt like they'd taken the serious angle too far and it parts of it didn't even feel like a Bond film.

    I agree with you 100% about Dalts. Like Moore before him, Dalton took the template and stretched it in a direction that suited him, but he was still in the same tradition.

    I know I'm in a minority of about 2 or 3 on here, but QoS was for me the best post-Cubby Bond film. It's not a classic, but it does what it sets out too do without to much fuss or pretentiousness and actually has (IMO), some truly Bondian moments. CR has a good performance from Craig and I respect the film but have never really come to love it. You know my views on SF - I think I might even place TND above it.

    I just rewatched CR about five times in the last 10 days and have to say that I have overdosed on it. Craig is fine but the film is way over hyped. It feels like a Bond film in parts but at the same time it could be another film as well. And the action to me is not as exciting as the Bond films of yesteryear. Even in the cinema, I was thinking this and that was 6 years ago.

    The old Bond films had wit in the action whilst now it is just action. Even the Aston chase in TLD is funny and sexy!

    QOS is way better to me.

    I would take Dr No over CR if a gun was put to my head.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I kind of feel sorry for Dalton to be honest. Kill was serious but perhaps lacked a bit of that "Bond touch" at times and slipped into "action movie" territory. Ultimately it seemed Dalton knew this.

    You're right. I find it odd that so many people believe that this was the direction Dalton wanted to go in. I think he was happier with the balance of TLD. The opening sequence in Prague is one of the best in the series and IMO beats anything in LTK.

    The writers strike did not help LTK. But Dalts gave a great performance. But I would have loved to see a light hearted third film which he did say is essential. He specifically referred to there being more flirting with Moneypenny and more humour.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    I love TLD, it was my first Bond film, but I think LTK has a better story and a better villian that puts it ahead.

    TLD is one of the best cold war era Bond films and the last with the feel of cold war tension especially in Bratislava. TLD is a killer film and gets better with the passing years. Dalton was amazing on my first cinema trip and still is when I watch it.

    And being a huge fan of Raiders Of The Lost Ark, I love the actor from Raiders who played Pushkin, Jonathan Rhys-Davies. I think TLD and Raiders are my favourite 80's movies!
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Like I said, the differences between the Dalton and Moore eras are way exagerated on here. Dalton was in the Connery and Moore tradition. Bain is completely right. He did his own thing but he was not reinventing the wheel.

    That's what I like about him. He was more serious and darker than the Bonds before him but he was still Bond. In QOS, I felt like they'd taken the serious angle too far and it parts of it didn't even feel like a Bond film.

    I agree with you 100% about Dalts. Like Moore before him, Dalton took the template and stretched it in a direction that suited him, but he was still in the same tradition.

    I know I'm in a minority of about 2 or 3 on here, but QoS was for me the best post-Cubby Bond film. It's not a classic, but it does what it sets out too do without to much fuss or pretentiousness and actually has (IMO), some truly Bondian moments. CR has a good performance from Craig and I respect the film but have never really come to love it. You know my views on SF - I think I might even place TND above it.

    I just rewatched CR about five times in the last 10 days and have to say that I have overdosed on it. Craig is fine but the film is way over hyped. It feels like a Bond film in parts but at the same time it could be another film as well. And the action to me is not as exciting as the Bond films of yesteryear. Even in the cinema, I was thinking this and that was 6 years ago.

    The old Bond films had wit in the action whilst now it is just action. Even the Aston chase in TLD is funny and sexy!

    QOS is way better to me.

    I would take Dr No over CR if a gun was put to my head.

    And yet you still watched it 5 times in 10 days ;)

  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    acoppola wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    I love TLD, it was my first Bond film, but I think LTK has a better story and a better villian that puts it ahead.

    TLD is one of the best cold war era Bond films and the last with the feel of cold war tension especially in Bratislava. TLD is a killer film and gets better with the passing years. Dalton was amazing on my first cinema trip and still is when I watch it.

    And being a huge fan of Raiders Of The Lost Ark, I love the actor from Raiders who played Pushkin, Jonathan Rhys-Davies. I think TLD and Raiders are my favourite 80's movies!

    Both brilliant films and no coincidence that Raiders adopts a classic Bond story structure. Jonathan Rhys-Davies is the Kerim Bey local ally and Denholm Elliott a bumbling M/Q type character. Brilliant, magical movie-making from Spielberg in his prime.

    TLD has also aged very well and the atmosphere is delicious - it just captures the Cold War feel precisely at the moment that it was all about to collapse. One of my top five Bonds.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Like I said, the differences between the Dalton and Moore eras are way exagerated on here. Dalton was in the Connery and Moore tradition. Bain is completely right. He did his own thing but he was not reinventing the wheel.

    That's what I like about him. He was more serious and darker than the Bonds before him but he was still Bond. In QOS, I felt like they'd taken the serious angle too far and it parts of it didn't even feel like a Bond film.

    I agree with you 100% about Dalts. Like Moore before him, Dalton took the template and stretched it in a direction that suited him, but he was still in the same tradition.

    I know I'm in a minority of about 2 or 3 on here, but QoS was for me the best post-Cubby Bond film. It's not a classic, but it does what it sets out too do without to much fuss or pretentiousness and actually has (IMO), some truly Bondian moments. CR has a good performance from Craig and I respect the film but have never really come to love it. You know my views on SF - I think I might even place TND above it.

    I just rewatched CR about five times in the last 10 days and have to say that I have overdosed on it. Craig is fine but the film is way over hyped. It feels like a Bond film in parts but at the same time it could be another film as well. And the action to me is not as exciting as the Bond films of yesteryear. Even in the cinema, I was thinking this and that was 6 years ago.

    The old Bond films had wit in the action whilst now it is just action. Even the Aston chase in TLD is funny and sexy!

    QOS is way better to me.

    I would take Dr No over CR if a gun was put to my head.

    And yet you still watched it 5 times in 10 days ;)

    I just noticed that it loses it's impact for me once you watch it a lot. Now DAF I used to watch sometimes twice a day and found it a better experience. Connery is better in that than many say or give credit.

    I could watch LALD daily and it still has a charm. I think CR is so real world and the fantasy element is gone. CR is too dour. The Venice scenes are pretty but I do not buy the relationship. When you see Eva in Dark Shadows,I see more chemistry in that film and that is love/hate.

    It has great acting moments but LTK looks way more Bond style to me. How could it not with the same director who had done 3 of Roger Moore's?

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited December 2012 Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote:
    acoppola wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    I love TLD, it was my first Bond film, but I think LTK has a better story and a better villian that puts it ahead.

    TLD is one of the best cold war era Bond films and the last with the feel of cold war tension especially in Bratislava. TLD is a killer film and gets better with the passing years. Dalton was amazing on my first cinema trip and still is when I watch it.

    And being a huge fan of Raiders Of The Lost Ark, I love the actor from Raiders who played Pushkin, Jonathan Rhys-Davies. I think TLD and Raiders are my favourite 80's movies!

    Both brilliant films and no coincidence that Raiders adopts a classic Bond story structure. Jonathan Rhys-Davies is the Kerim Bey local ally and Denholm Elliott a bumbling M/Q type character. Brilliant, magical movie-making from Spielberg in his prime.

    TLD has also aged very well and the atmosphere is delicious - it just captures the Cold War feel precisely at the moment that it was all about to collapse. One of my top five Bonds.

    I actually agree with your assessments of the old Bonds. They could be serious but the sense of fun was outstanding. Bond just had that signature style and look so removed from our world. And Bond films looked so unique that nothing compared to them.

    Raiders to me was the only real competition to Bond and that film is a masterpiece which modern films cannot hold a candle to!

    Nowadays everything is so real and indistinguishable from most action films out there. I like the Bond reboot era but I do not see it as part of the old franchise any more than I see The Dark Knight resembling the Tim Burton franchise of Batman.

    But with the success of new Bond, they now want to cosy up to the old series which makes no sense seeing as they went for a from scratch approach.

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