SPECTRE: TOP 5 elements "SPECTRE" must have to tackle all criticism that surrounded "SKYFALL"

Gustav_Graves

boldfinger wrote:

Gustav_Graves wrote:

I do think that with a villain (Blofeld) or a revived crime syndicate (SPECTRE, QUANTUM) you facilitate screenplay writers (John Logan) wunderfully. As 'Casino Royale' was all about the introduction of Bond and 'Skyfall' about the relationship with 'M', then let Bond 24 at least be about a majestic, but realistic villains plot.....worked out properly by a revived, modernized crime syndicate......headed by one villain that we all should be proud of: Blofeld.

What is it with Logan, anyway? If he´s such a great writer, then why are there such dumb lines in the film as, "How the hell did they get into our system"? Or was that just poor execution on behalf of the director?
Both CR and, to an even greater degree, QOS were about the relationship with M to a sufficient degree. If Bond 24 were "about" a villain´s plot, what would we have the following Bond films "about"? Isn´t Bond a secret service operative with a license to kill and a knack for luxurious recreation? He doesn´t need an emotional trauma as a cause for that. He could just like it. As was also described by Fleming. It was sufficiently believable that Bond had some personal issues with the Vesper thing. Having him next in a Nolan-identity-crisis-drama is kind of a step off the path, even when one ignores the fact that Fleming gave Bond nothing but comforting memories regarding his childhood. So maybe it should be the normal thing for a Bond film to be about majestic villains plots? It would be better to concentrate the creativity on exactly that, instead of on Bond´s personal surroundings.
As for the modernized crime syndicate, what if not that was Quantum? They are the perfect personification of the network-cloud-age we´re living in. A single leader would merely defeat the purpose. As for Blofeld, I say the same I said about the DB5: grand, but let the past rest in piece. Similar character anytime, but not the name. The name would be connected anyhow to a bald guy from old Bond films, so if they were to do the Fleming character justice, which I would find great by itself, they should just give him a fresh name.

If I'm not mistaken, John Logan did a major rewrite of Neal Purvis and Robert Wade's original screenplay. It was John Logan who put the memorable entrance of Silva in the film. Also the 'homo-erotic' moment between Bond and Silva was his call. The entire rat story....that was Logan's work.

boldfinger

Gustav_Graves wrote:

boldfinger wrote:

Gustav_Graves wrote:

I do think that with a villain (Blofeld) or a revived crime syndicate (SPECTRE, QUANTUM) you facilitate screenplay writers (John Logan) wunderfully. As 'Casino Royale' was all about the introduction of Bond and 'Skyfall' about the relationship with 'M', then let Bond 24 at least be about a majestic, but realistic villains plot.....worked out properly by a revived, modernized crime syndicate......headed by one villain that we all should be proud of: Blofeld.

What is it with Logan, anyway? If he´s such a great writer, then why are there such dumb lines in the film as, "How the hell did they get into our system"? Or was that just poor execution on behalf of the director?
Both CR and, to an even greater degree, QOS were about the relationship with M to a sufficient degree. If Bond 24 were "about" a villain´s plot, what would we have the following Bond films "about"? Isn´t Bond a secret service operative with a license to kill and a knack for luxurious recreation? He doesn´t need an emotional trauma as a cause for that. He could just like it. As was also described by Fleming. It was sufficiently believable that Bond had some personal issues with the Vesper thing. Having him next in a Nolan-identity-crisis-drama is kind of a step off the path, even when one ignores the fact that Fleming gave Bond nothing but comforting memories regarding his childhood. So maybe it should be the normal thing for a Bond film to be about majestic villains plots? It would be better to concentrate the creativity on exactly that, instead of on Bond´s personal surroundings.
As for the modernized crime syndicate, what if not that was Quantum? They are the perfect personification of the network-cloud-age we´re living in. A single leader would merely defeat the purpose. As for Blofeld, I say the same I said about the DB5: grand, but let the past rest in piece. Similar character anytime, but not the name. The name would be connected anyhow to a bald guy from old Bond films, so if they were to do the Fleming character justice, which I would find great by itself, they should just give him a fresh name.

If I'm not mistaken, John Logan did a major rewrite of Neal Purvis and Robert Wade's original screenplay. It was John Logan who put the memorable entrance of Silva in the film. Also the 'homo-erotic' moment between Bond and Silva was his call. The entire rat story....that was Logan's work.

And that justifies that in the final script there are lines such as, "How the hell did they get into our system", or, "It´s some kind of sadistic game"?
Moreover, the last several Bond films were written on a basis by Purvis and Wade, which means a) P&W must have some value, and b) we don´t know yet if any of the writers who did the final drafts is able to come up with a complete usable plot all on their own.

Gustav_Graves

I think we differ on here. The lines you mentioned were largely counteracted by fantastic acting. You know what I found bad? All those 'jokes' in the Brosnan films. They sounded forced and cheesy. Roger Moore and Connery were able to make witty lines their own. But Bosnan?

For instance "I thought Christmas comes only once a year" in TWINE. I was like....uhm.....ha...ha.....ha :-S

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Gustav_Graves wrote:

I think we differ on here. The lines you mentioned were largely counteracted by fantastic acting. You know what I found bad? All those 'jokes' in the Brosnan films. They sounded forced and cheesy. Roger Moore and Connery were able to make witty lines their own. But Bosnan?

For instance "I thought Christmas comes only once a year" in TWINE. I was like....uhm.....ha...ha.....ha :-S

Good points. Sean had very natural delivery with his jokes and well, Roger is basically an honorary member of the One-liner Brigade, if not Commander in Chief of the lot.

SHF1

In no specific order
1. Agree on gunbarrel
2. Reference to Spectre, or establish a lineage to Quantum, return of Quantum
3. Bond in "Q"s lab, a few devices, Q relents "field duty" requires
4. Return of the DB5, presented to Bond, rebuilt to Mi6 specs, and a new Aston Martin for daily driving, Mi6 specs, of course
5. Mission introduction in "m"s office

SHF1

Another idea to consider
Just saw the "detective work" comment. I like the idea In CR, breaking into a lab TND
No so sure about Bloefeld, but a lineage, reference or relative

Gustav_Graves

SHF1 wrote:

Another idea to consider
Just saw the "detective work" comment. I like the idea In CR, breaking into a lab TND
No so sure about Bloefeld, but a lineage, reference or relative

I love those 'lab break in' scenes. My favourite must be 'Moonraker'. It's perhaps one of the finest moments of that film. Bond's look on his face when those doctors die and not those rats....priceless.

doubleoego

Gunbarrel at start

Brutal violent fight scenes that last at least more than 30 seconds

Less location hopping and time spent to soak up the atmosphere and the culture of decided locations

Bond to seemingly enjoy his job. More of the relaxed attitude he shows like when he and Cesper check in to the hotel in CR and in SF when he's bantering with Eve just before Bond meets up with M and Mallory

Girls girls girls. Bond needs to get his end in as often as possible, especially with the Femme Fatales. Bond is a free agent, he enjoys the pleasures if sex, lets see him bang his way through a few women.

TheWizardOfIce

SHF1 wrote:

4. Return of the DB5,

Oh FFS.

Ludovico

boldfinger wrote:

Gustav_Graves wrote:

I do think that with a villain (Blofeld) or a revived crime syndicate (SPECTRE, QUANTUM) you facilitate screenplay writers (John Logan) wunderfully. As 'Casino Royale' was all about the introduction of Bond and 'Skyfall' about the relationship with 'M', then let Bond 24 at least be about a majestic, but realistic villains plot.....worked out properly by a revived, modernized crime syndicate......headed by one villain that we all should be proud of: Blofeld.

What is it with Logan, anyway? If he´s such a great writer, then why are there such dumb lines in the film as, "How the hell did they get into our system"? Or was that just poor execution on behalf of the director?
Both CR and, to an even greater degree, QOS were about the relationship with M to a sufficient degree. If Bond 24 were "about" a villain´s plot, what would we have the following Bond films "about"? Isn´t Bond a secret service operative with a license to kill and a knack for luxurious recreation? He doesn´t need an emotional trauma as a cause for that. He could just like it. As was also described by Fleming. It was sufficiently believable that Bond had some personal issues with the Vesper thing. Having him next in a Nolan-identity-crisis-drama is kind of a step off the path, even when one ignores the fact that Fleming gave Bond nothing but comforting memories regarding his childhood. So maybe it should be the normal thing for a Bond film to be about majestic villains plots? It would be better to concentrate the creativity on exactly that, instead of on Bond´s personal surroundings.
As for the modernized crime syndicate, what if not that was Quantum? They are the perfect personification of the network-cloud-age we´re living in. A single leader would merely defeat the purpose. As for Blofeld, I say the same I said about the DB5: grand, but let the past rest in piece. Similar character anytime, but not the name. The name would be connected anyhow to a bald guy from old Bond films, so if they were to do the Fleming character justice, which I would find great by itself, they should just give him a fresh name.

Actually, what is connected to a bald guy in the old films is... that bald guy in the old films. I doubt many moviegoers make the connection between the spoofed image and the name Blofeld.

M_Balje

"How the hell did they get into our system" is typical P&W, must be line from Judi Dench M. See QOS where Dench M use some simalar words where the very naive M ''Lies'' she don't know who Quantum be. "It´s some kind of sadistic game"? is also example of line who said more then you think.

boldfinger

M_Balje wrote:

"How the hell did they get into our system" is typical P&W, must be line from Judi Dench M. See QOS where Dench M use some simalar words where the very naive M ''Lies'' she don't know who Quantum be. "It´s some kind of sadistic game"? is also example of line who said more then you think.

In QOS such lines weren´t out of place, because the film wasn´t pretending to be that serious and realistic. In SF however they do feel completely out of place.
And no matter who put those lines into the script originally, it should be the job of the final writer/polisher to notice and correct them.

thelivingroyale

Gustav_Graves wrote:

I think we differ on here. The lines you mentioned were largely counteracted by fantastic acting. You know what I found bad? All those 'jokes' in the Brosnan films. They sounded forced and cheesy. Roger Moore and Connery were able to make witty lines their own. But Bosnan?

For instance "I thought Christmas comes only once a year" in TWINE. I was like....uhm.....ha...ha.....ha :-S

I've seen this so many times on here.

"But Brosnan was worse, right guys! Remember how bad he was!"

Cheesey one liners from the Brosnan era have nothing to do with the topic at hand (SF's dialogue). It's a piss poor argument and I think when you resort to saying "but it's not as bad as X or Y!" you lose any credibility you had in the debate.

It's like saying Batman Forever is a good film because it's not Batman And Robin.

Gustav_Graves

thelivingroyale wrote:

Gustav_Graves wrote:

I think we differ on here. The lines you mentioned were largely counteracted by fantastic acting. You know what I found bad? All those 'jokes' in the Brosnan films. They sounded forced and cheesy. Roger Moore and Connery were able to make witty lines their own. But Bosnan?

For instance "I thought Christmas comes only once a year" in TWINE. I was like....uhm.....ha...ha.....ha :-S

I've seen this so many times on here.

"But Brosnan was worse, right guys! Remember how bad he was!"

Cheesey one liners from the Brosnan era have nothing to do with the topic at hand (SF's dialogue). It's a piss poor argument and I think when you resort to saying "but it's not as bad as X or Y!" you lose any credibility you had in the debate.

It's like saying Batman Forever is a good film because it's not Batman And Robin.

Wow man, take it easy. This is my opinion okay? I just disagree with the fact that certain lines in Skyfall were bad. A line like "How the hell did they get in our system" is pretty normal I think. If I were 'M' sitting in that car I would bloody say the same!!

One thing that really irritated me were the cheesy oneliners in the Brosnan films. They just didn't seem 'natural'. From the mouths of Moore, Connery and hell even Craig in Skyfall they sounded a bit more believable.

That's my opinion okay? To say that I lost any credibility in this debate is just preposterous. Man, just learn to agree to disagree okay? :-S . I respect your opinion, which I'm not agreeing to, and you respect mine. It's as simple as that.

And please, get back on topic okay? This is a Thomas Newman appreciation topic. Come and give some arguments like.......what should Newman improve for Bond 24? Should he get more creative freedom?

thelivingroyale

I never said I didn't respect your opinion, I just said that you're opinion had nothing to do with what was being discussed and that you saying Brosnan's one liners were awful is a piss poor argument when defending what some people thought was bad dialogue in Skyfall because it's completely unrelated.

Gustav_Graves wrote:

To say that I lost any credibility in this debate is just preposterous.

Nah. I don't think it is. When you end up resorting to saying "but it's not as bad as this!", I think that shows you have a weak argument and in my eyes you lost any credibility you had in that debate.

Gustav_Graves wrote:

hell even Craig in Skyfall they sounded a bit more believable.

Cracking two one liners in a row after stepping on a CGI komodo dragon to escape some goons. The epitome of believable ;)

Gustav_Graves wrote:

And please, get back on topic okay? This is a Thomas Newman appreciation topic.

No it's not.

4EverBonded

There is a Newman appreciation thread; just not this one.

I really don't have an issue with the dialog in Skyfall; the lines did not seem out of place to me.

Ludovico

4EverBonded wrote:

There is a Newman appreciation thread; just not this one.

I really don't have an issue with the dialog in Skyfall; the lines did not seem out of place to me.

Me neither. None of the Craig movie so far had lines that I cringed at.

MajorDSmythe

1) A new Bond.
2) Opening gunbarrel.
3) The Bond theme used when needed, and not just one or two notes.
4) Spy Thriller tone, and no kitchen sink-y drama please. Might that be counted as two? If so, i'll choose the former for #4.
5) A good Bond vs ? fight.

RC7

Ludovico wrote:

4EverBonded wrote:

There is a Newman appreciation thread; just not this one.

I really don't have an issue with the dialog in Skyfall; the lines did not seem out of place to me.

Me neither. None of the Craig movie so far had lines that I cringed at.

A lot of Eve's had me wincing. I'm still flabbergasted at how wooden some of her delivery is. The worst of the bunch being, 'VW Beetles... I think'. I feel like she spent most of the film 'acting'. It didn't help that she shared scenes with Craig, Fiennes, Dench etc who all inhabit their roles and are never caught short, whatever dialogue they're given.

TheWizardOfIce

RC7 wrote:

Ludovico wrote:

4EverBonded wrote:

There is a Newman appreciation thread; just not this one.

I really don't have an issue with the dialog in Skyfall; the lines did not seem out of place to me.

Me neither. None of the Craig movie so far had lines that I cringed at.

A lot of Eve's had me wincing. I'm still flabbergasted at how wooden some of her delivery is. The worst of the bunch being, 'VW Beetles... I think'. I feel like she spent most of the film 'acting'. It didn't help that she shared scenes with Craig, Fiennes, Dench etc who all inhabit their roles and are never caught short, whatever dialogue they're given.

I agree heartily, although I would say 'its some sort of sadistic game' is her worst delivery although its not the greatest line in the first place. Odd because she's got a decent CV behind her but I suppose it was easy to be overawed given the company she was keeping on SF. Will we get as good a cast for B24? Will be very difficult.

boldfinger

Gustav_Graves wrote:

A line like "How the hell did they get in our system" is pretty normal I think. If I were 'M' sitting in that car I would bloody say the same!!

The head of any secret service in the cyber age shouldn´t be surprised at a cyber attack. That´s tantamount to a World War 2 general exclaiming, "how the hell could they shoot at us".
If M would have said something like, "where the **** did that come from" I wouldn´t nag at all, but she sounds as if she couldn´t believe that someone could crack MI6´ firewall.

Gustav_Graves wrote:

This is a Thomas Newman appreciation topic. Come and give some arguments like.......what should Newman improve for Bond 24? Should he get more creative freedom?

The amount of various ideas he expressed don´t really sound like lack of creative freedom. Several action cues resembling Zimmer quite closely sounds more like that lack. He should use his own talent more in such scenes. Action cues don´t have to hammer about like when Bond tackles Severine´s bodyguards in the casino. Instead they could benefit from a little more identity.
Basically he should explore ideas a bit more. For example, in the Shanghai sequence, up until the scene where Bond and Severine glance at one another across the street, Newman hops from one musical topic to the next, alltogether I count six musical tracks so completely different from each other as if the intention were to disrupt the flow of the sequence. He should use one or more elements that bind all the music of one sequence together.
And it doesn´t hurt a film if musical themes or ideas are repeated throughout the film. Beside the Bond theme, and also beside the M mourning theme that sounds more at home in an American military drama than in a British secret agent flic.

Ludovico

boldfinger wrote:

Gustav_Graves wrote:

A line like "How the hell did they get in our system" is pretty normal I think. If I were 'M' sitting in that car I would bloody say the same!!

The head of any secret service in the cyber age shouldn´t be surprised at a cyber attack. That´s tantamount to a World War 2 general exclaiming, "how the hell could they shoot at us".
If M would have said something like, "where the **** did that come from" I wouldn´t nag at all, but she sounds as if she couldn´t believe that someone could crack MI6´ firewall.

C, the real head of MI6, had his picture uploaded on Facebook by his daughter. He didn't see that one coming either. I think such an important breach of security would pretty much bring disbelief and surprise. Every place is vulnerable, but no government official would like to think so.

Gustav_Graves

It is interesting to see that most of the Bond fans did not like Thomas Newman's music :-). But that's why this 'element' is scoring high in this thread.

Walecs

Bring back David Arnold, and I'm fine.

Gustav_Graves

Now with Sam Mendes back at the helm of the director's chair............you can count on an almost similar crew compared to 'Skyfall' :-)

Quarterdeck

"tackle every bit of criticism..." - not sure there was much!

Anyway. What would I like? Off the top of my head...

1. Big grand adventure. TSWLM/TB etc. Proper world toppling plot with the patented modern/DC spin.
2. You can reboot Blofeld for that. Christophe Waltz being today's casting choice
3. Exotic foreign locales after SF's (nice) homespun drama for contrast. How about Africa?
4. Some unique decent tech/hardware (large or small) for a Q/action scene
5. gunbarrell upfront. Obviously

Oh and if they can work up another thrilling PTS to rival the SF one....magic!

Sir_James_Moloney

SirHenryLeeChaChing wrote:

really looking to seeing Fiennes again as M. Given what they are paying him, I will be surprised to see his involvement as limited as Lee and Brown, very surprised.

The only counter-argument I'd suggest is that Fiennes is starting to make his name as a director and, after a very successful debut feature, his next film is apparently getting very positive notices. If Fiennes continues with this new career he may have limited time to act in Bond. I agree that he will certainly be given a more complex and interesting role than Lee and Brown but he might not necessarily have as much screen time as Dench.

echo wrote:

Does Eon even have the rights to SPECTRE?

Yes. Danjaq / MGM now has the rights to all of the Bond films. I wouldn't expect them to revisit SPECTRE at all though.

doubleoego

I think Fiennes is well aware of what he was getting himself into when he accepted the role of M for the forseeable future. I don't think him being a director will affect his shooting schedules for Bond anyway as he'd know before we do at least when each subsequent film will be released at least over the next 5 years anyway. Also, he's no stranger to bit parts, his screen time for the Potter movies weren't extensive and I seem to recall him being on screen for about 5 mins in Jarhead. Either way, as long as he has less screen time than Dench's last 3 movies, things should be fine. Keep it short yet significant.

DoctorKaufmann

1. James Bond
2. Gun barrel in the middle of the movie.
3. An opening
4. A middle (with GB)
5. An End

But not necessarily in this order...

Quarterdeck

Damn! I forgot Wright's glorious Felix Leiter.

Would like to see him back