Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Linked to this I sometimes feel I'm the only one who doesn't mind Brosnan's "forgot to knock" line.

    Worst introduction ever. Hanging upside down, smiling goofily at a Russian taking a dump. Wow, what class, the stage is set.

    I do completely agree it's the worst "new Bond actor" introduction in the series. Completely takes away from the excellent Dam jump. Moore's was pretty goddamn awful but Brosnan's is still worse. Thankfully it's the biggest misstep of the movie and is out of the way right at the beginning. The rest of the PTS is excellent.

    For sake of reference, we've got...

    "I admire your courage..."
    "Good morning! My name is Bond, James Bond."
    "*Italian*"
    No dialogue, just a badass shot of the world's biggest badass ever.
    "Beg your pardon, forgot to knock."
    "M doesn't mind you making a little money on the side, Dryden. She'd just prefer it if it wasn't selling secrets."

    If you're going to count Dalton's shocked/angry look, than you should probably count Brosnan's dam jump. And the Lazenator's introduction was worse than Brosnan's, considering that he sounds way too cheerful for a secret agent rescuing somebody from drowning.

    Correct. Outside of Connery, Brosnan has the best introduction of any Bond. The Dam jump is the last great, truly iconic stunt. There have been some brilliant action scenes in the Craig era, but nothing tops the sheer audaciousness of the dam jump. Classic Bond.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    doubleoego wrote:
    Brosnan's intro line is nowhere near as bad as some if you are making out. I mean sure, it's not as sophisticated as Connery's intro but still, it was a throwaway quip. You guys are being too harsh.
    Also @Chang, I'm inclined to agree with @Willy.

    Nice to see someone who agrees with me.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,466
    Happy to see some love for Brosnan's intro. It really is beyond fantastic.
  • Posts: 6,396
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Happy to see some love for Brosnan's intro. It really is beyond fantastic.

    After 6 years away, I can't think of anything that could have topped the bungee jump. Pure Bond.
  • Posts: 2,400
    I'm counting when Bond's face is first shown. Otherwise Connery is the poker game, Lazenby is driving the car, Moore is the same, Dalton is the parachute jump, Brosnan is the dam jump, and Craig is the same.
  • Creasy47 wrote:
    Happy to see some love for Brosnan's intro. It really is beyond fantastic.

    The one-liner isn't great, but the dam jump more than makes up for it. The only two that are close are Connery's and Craig's. Connery probably wins for originating four traditions at the same time, but the dam jump just edges out Craig's cold confrontation and killing of Dryden.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 6,396
    I'm counting when Bond's face is first shown. Otherwise Connery is the poker game, Lazenby is driving the car, Moore is the same, Dalton is the parachute jump, Brosnan is the dam jump, and Craig is the same.

    Chemin de fer ;-)
  • Posts: 11,189
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Happy to see some love for Brosnan's intro. It really is beyond fantastic.

    I don't think its the best but I've never had any problems with it.
  • SuperheroSithSuperheroSith SE London
    Posts: 578
    TSWLM is highly over-rated
  • Sean Connery has the best introduction of any other James Bond, in perhaps the best James Bond performance ever, although From Russia With Love runs it close

    With regards to introduction, most of the others are too dark, or poorly lit. Maybe that adds some intrigue or mystery to some, but doesn't always work for some viewers. Moore is in bed in a dark room, Lazenby is unclear in his car, Brosnan is shadowed until he meets Trevelyan and Craig is sat in a corner in a dark room in the Czech Republic. Only Dalton offers more light on the character at the Gibraltar training exercise and we get an almost instant introduction to Bond, as with Connery in '62, but as mentioned, all the others, a bit too hidden away in the shadows and we only get to see their respective Bonds over time and things are left a little mysterious
  • Posts: 14,822
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Happy to see some love for Brosnan's intro. It really is beyond fantastic.

    The one-liner isn't great, but the dam jump more than makes up for it. The only two that are close are Connery's and Craig's. Connery probably wins for originating four traditions at the same time, but the dam jump just edges out Craig's cold confrontation and killing of Dryden.

    Brosnan's intro, from the moments before and until the dam jump, is amazing. Then the moment when he is upside down in a Soviet toilet is a bit crass, but not to the point to completely spoil what happened before. Still, I prefer the CR intro. Interestingly enough they both feature toilets.
  • Posts: 908
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

  • Posts: 908

    I'm not a massive fan of TND's either but it probably is better than TWINE. But there's no question that GE is Brosnan's best and most satisfying PTS.


    sure. Bond defying gravity and plot premise that leads you nowhere when you start thinking about it. No wonder so many here like it!
    But the jump is great, no question about it!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Including Rosa Klebb? OOh, my brain is melting just thinking about it. No offence, Lotte.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 12,837
    I like Die Another Day's soundtrack. It's big, Bondanian, and memorable. There are a couple of bits that are stuck in my head after I watch it.

    The main complaint people seem to have is "too techno", but apart from the title song that's really not true. TWINE sounded more techno.

    I don't think it's Arnold's best soundtrack but I do like it and I still think, apart from LALD, it's above all the non Barry/Arnold scores (yeah that includes SF and no I don't care that it was nominated for an Oscar).
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,330
    I like Die Another Day's soundtrack. It's big, Bondanian, and memorable. There are a couple of bits that are stuck in my head after I watch it.

    The main complaint people seem to have is "too techno", but apart from the title song that's really not true. TWINE sounded more techno.

    I don't think it's Arnold's best soundtrack but I do like it and I still think, apart from LALD, it's above all the non Barry/Arnold scores (yeah that includes SF and no I don't care that it was nominated for an Oscar).

    I agree to all these points.
  • Posts: 14,822
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Herrrmmm... Rosa Klebb? Irma Bunt?
  • Posts: 6,396
    Ludovico wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Herrrmmm... Rosa Klebb? Irma Bunt?

    Add Xenia Onatopp to that.
  • Posts: 908
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Including Rosa Klebb? OOh, my brain is melting just thinking about it. No offence, Lotte.

    You absolutely got me there. But getting rid of steam or not, she also happens to be just a henchman (albeit a rather elevated one) and insofar I judge Apteds comment as 100% correct.
  • In defense of Apted, Irma Bunt and Xenia Onatopp (and Fiona Volpe) as great as they are, are clearly hench(wo)men. Elektra King and Rosa Klebb, while both murky in terms of who's the main villain and who's the hench(wo)man are at least on a level playing field.
  • Ludovico wrote:

    Herrrmmm... Rosa Klebb? Irma Bunt?

    Maybe (I hope) Apted was referring not to the characters' artistic value, but to their relative power in the world of the films. Irma Bunt was only a henchman as well. While Klebb is pretty clearly the main villain in FRWL, she was still working for Blofeld. I'd argue that Elektra is the first true supervillain, defined as the mastermind of the evil plan, and not reporting to anyone else. No matter how memorable characters such as Klebb, Bunt, and Volpe are, they are still employees of a more powerful villain.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 14,822
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Including Rosa Klebb? OOh, my brain is melting just thinking about it. No offence, Lotte.

    You absolutely got me there. But getting rid of steam or not, she also happens to be just a henchman (albeit a rather elevated one) and insofar I judge Apteds comment as 100% correct.

    SRosa Klebb is not just an henchwoman though, she is the field commander in FRWL and with Grant the main antagonist of Bond. In the plot, she is at least as important as Elektra is in TWINE, if not more. She certainly is far more threatening. And in any case, Apted was wrong: there are female villains in Bond, credible ones, since the Fleming novels.
  • Posts: 6,396
    In defense of Apted, Irma Bunt and Xenia Onatopp (and Fiona Volpe) as great as they are, are clearly hench(wo)men. Elektra King and Rosa Klebb, while both murky in terms of who's the main villain and who's the hench(wo)man are at least on a level playing field.

    But you could argue that both Volpe and Onatopp were far more memorable than Largo and Trevelyan.
  • Posts: 908
    Ludovico wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Herrrmmm... Rosa Klebb? Irma Bunt?

    Add Xenia Onatopp to that.

    Mind you all, we're talking about superiors here. You know those who call the shots and not those who do the shooting.
  • In defense of Apted, Irma Bunt and Xenia Onatopp (and Fiona Volpe) as great as they are, are clearly hench(wo)men. Elektra King and Rosa Klebb, while both murky in terms of who's the main villain and who's the hench(wo)man are at least on a level playing field.

    But you could argue that both Volpe and Onatopp were far more memorable than Largo and Trevelyan.

    A valid point, but I consider main villains and henchmen separately, so as much great as Oddjob and Jaws are, they won't be on a list of best villains. Obviously, they'd have the henchmen list all to themselves, but the distinction remains.
  • Posts: 908
    Ludovico wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Including Rosa Klebb? OOh, my brain is melting just thinking about it. No offence, Lotte.

    You absolutely got me there. But getting rid of steam or not, she also happens to be just a henchman (albeit a rather elevated one) and insofar I judge Apteds comment as 100% correct.

    SRosa Klebb is not just an henchwoman though, she is the field commander in FRWL and with Grant the main antagonist of Bond. In the plot, she is at least as important as Elektra is in TWINE, if not more. She certainly is far more threatening. And in any case, Apted was wrong: there are female villains in Bond, credible ones, since the Fleming novels.

    Still she gets executed while reporting (!) to Blofeld. In TWINE Elektra is the top of the food chain (well, at least among the baddies). Don't forget, that Renard prepares to die for her towards the climax.
  • From what I've gathered and browsed over, it's almost impossible to make a controversial statement about TWINE. It seems to be probably the most divisive of any Bond film. I see it in plenty of Top 10's and even Top 5's and in plenty of bottom 5's as well.

    A very divisive film it seems.

    Well you could argue that it has the best pre title sequence in the series, but then there can be no dispute - it has

    Some would say Viktor Zokas is the main antagonist, while it is in fact Elektra King. I have in fact made, would some would see, as a controversial statement as saying it's Brosnan's best James Bond release, while most others would favor Goldeneye

    Is that controversial ? Dependant on one persons perspective, but I always stand by that decision, right or wrong

    I will argue that it's nowhere near the best PTS of the series. It's way too long and the boat chase is actually quite boring. The barrell roll in particular isn't helped by the multiple camera cuts or the fact you can see how the stunt is done.

    Agreed. Easily the most overrated PTS. The PTSs of GE and TND, OTOH, are rather underrated, IMO.

  • BAIN123 wrote:
    Whatever. I thought It was fine. I honestly havent cringed once in the many times ive seen it. In fact its made me smile a bit. Broz delivers it well and makes an admittedly cheesy line work. There's FAR worse dialogue in the series whether it be from the leery Moore or indeed Brosnan later on. "Forgot to knock" is comparatively pretty mild.

    Agreed. Yes, the Russian crapper is a pretty grody place for Bond to be. But hey, being Bond isn't ALL world-class casinos and Michelin starred restaurants.

  • Posts: 14,822
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    I didn't either, until I read an interview when Michael Apted said Elektra was the first credible female Bond villain... and then I saw TWINE in a very different light, and pretty much as a labour of arrogance.

    Again, who CARES what these idiots say? Judge the product, not the comments after the production.
    I've never had a dude buy a phaser replica from me & later quibble that since I made comments online concerning America needing background checks on gun purchases, I'm a pacifist & my phaser was made by a person who hates guns so it must suck.... :-O

    The thing, the idiot in question directed the movie and made an idiotic comment regarding the movie, but also passing a specific judgment on the whole franchise. So his comment made me see it in.a new light. But it is his arrogance that really got me.
    .

    funny thing is he was absolutely right. Before Elektra maximum thing we've got was Ms. Volpe, who was just a henchmen. All the other Women were just good to provide Bond with an opportunity to get rid of some steam (so to speak).

    Including Rosa Klebb? OOh, my brain is melting just thinking about it. No offence, Lotte.

    You absolutely got me there. But getting rid of steam or not, she also happens to be just a henchman (albeit a rather elevated one) and insofar I judge Apteds comment as 100% correct.

    SRosa Klebb is not just an henchwoman though, she is the field commander in FRWL and with Grant the main antagonist of Bond. In the plot, she is at least as important as Elektra is in TWINE, if not more. She certainly is far more threatening. And in any case, Apted was wrong: there are female villains in Bond, credible ones, since the Fleming novels.

    Still she gets executed while reporting (!) to Blofeld. In TWINE Elektra is the top of the food chain (well, at least among the baddies). Don't forget, that Renard prepares to die for her towards the climax.

    No she doesn't. She is killed by Tania in Venice. And during the whole movie, she is the primary antagonist with Grant. So what if Elektra is on top of the food chain? She is still not nearly as menacing or creepy as Klebb.
  • Posts: 14,822
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Whatever. I thought It was fine. I honestly havent cringed once in the many times ive seen it. In fact its made me smile a bit. Broz delivers it well and makes an admittedly cheesy line work. There's FAR worse dialogue in the series whether it be from the leery Moore or indeed Brosnan later on. "Forgot to knock" is comparatively pretty mild.

    Agreed. Yes, the Russian crapper is a pretty grody place for Bond to be. But hey, being Bond isn't ALL world-class casinos and Michelin starred restaurants.

    True. And let's not forget that Bond in the novel OHMSS wrote down a list of Blofeld's angels of death using his own urine.
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