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Sherlock (2010) BBC Series Discussion Thread

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  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited January 2014 Posts: 12,837
    @Gerard
    That's my theory too (which I thought of even before this last episode): a look alike. He was hiding with a journalist. Surely she'd check her facts. Moriarty might've had a CV but a quick google of the acting work he listed could've proven that he was lying. I think he had a look alike, maybe even a brother, who really was an actor, and that's who died on the roof. The real (Jim) Moriarty is alive and well.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    @Gerard
    That's my theory too (which I thought of even before this last episode): a look alike. He was hiding with a journalist. Surely she'd check her facts. Moriarty might've had a CV but a quick google of the acting work he listed could've proven that he was lying. I think he had a look alike, maybe even a brother, who really was an actor, and that's who died on the roof.

    In the books
    Moriarty had a brother, so you might not be far from the truth!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited January 2014 Posts: 28,694
    Sandy wrote:
    I don't think
    Moriarty is alive. I think someone is using his image but let's see.

    I'm with you.
    I just don't see it happening, though some signs point to him still being alive. I think it's someone using Moriarty and his name to strike fear into London/Sherlock/Mycroft etc. It would be interesting if Moriarty hired a man to play him, and the man who we thought was Moriarty this whole time was actually a real actor he hired to get close to Holmes and test his limits. Highly unlikely, but I still have a hard time rationalizing that he is still alive.
    Sandy wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    @Gerard
    That's my theory too (which I thought of even before this last episode): a look alike. He was hiding with a journalist. Surely she'd check her facts. Moriarty might've had a CV but a quick google of the acting work he listed could've proven that he was lying. I think he had a look alike, maybe even a brother, who really was an actor, and that's who died on the roof.

    In the books
    Moriarty had a brother, so you might not be far from the truth!
    And the brothers share the same name of James. Though Moffat and co. are too clever to take that angle.
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    Did you watch after the end credits? Moriarty it would seem is back and not just someone using his image.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    WillyGalore wrote:
    Did you watch after the end credits? Moriarty it would seem is back and not just someone using his image.
    Yes, I saw that bit, but it could just be Moffat and co. making us wonder more and more whether he truly is alive. The way I see it, they've written themselves into a corner. If Moriarty really is alive then they'll have to stage events drastically bigger and more intense that Reichenbach, which is going to be very tough as you can only go down. If he's dead and it's someone else using his image to their own advantage, there will be a massive letdown felt by all those who have been presented with what seems like positive evidence that he is still alive. Either way, I think it'll be an interesting twist to see ridden out.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited January 2014 Posts: 12,837
    I think the after credits scene was their way of saying "yes, he definitely is alive". I don't think it has to be bigger than Reichenbach, there's a simple explanation that I thought of before series 3 started
    He had a brother, an actor who had the stage name Richard Brook, and used him as part of his plan. He blackmails him, saying he'll kill his family or something if his brother doesn't do exactly as he says. So his brother first goes to the journalist, and then later on shoots himself on the roof, and he does all this to protect people close to him. How did it seem so much like Moriarty? He's a trained actor. But Sherlock probably could've sussed out that it wasn't the real Moriarty if he didn't have more important stuff on his mind (figuring out the 13 scenarios on the roof). So Moriarty is alive and well, it's his brother who died.

    Or if they do go with the "it's somebody else" angle, I think it could be Sherlock himself. He's already shown that he's very manipulative, so maybe he set up the video, knowing that they'd let him stay in the UK as a free man if they thought Moriarty was on the lose again.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre
    Posts: 1,548
    The Danish actor who played the villain in last night's episode- Magnussen, would make an excellent Bond villain ie Blofeld. He reminds me of a young Max Von Sydow. Tall and threatening. Make it happen Eon!
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    LeChiffre wrote:
    The Danish actor who played the villain in last night's episode- Magnussen, would make an excellent Bond villain ie Blofeld. He reminds me of a young Max Von Sydow. Tall and threatening. Make it happen Eon!

    He's great but I think Craig had enough Mikkelsen for his run ;)
  • karatemanchan37karatemanchan37
    Posts: 584
    Holy Crap. Mikkelsen, what a villain! Though I didn't agree with how it ended.

    Martin Freeman deserves another BAFTA
    Anyone caught the "blunt instrument" line ;)
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    LeChiffre wrote:
    The Danish actor who played the villain in last night's episode- Magnussen, would make an excellent Bond villain ie Blofeld. He reminds me of a young Max Von Sydow. Tall and threatening. Make it happen Eon!

    You do realise that was Mads Mikkleson's brother Lars? :-)
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    karatemanchan37 wrote:
    Holy Crap. Mikkelsen, what a villain! Though I didn't agree with how it ended.

    Martin Freeman deserves another BAFTA
    Anyone caught the "blunt instrument" line ;)

    I did ;) And anyone caught the similarity between the answer Magnussen gives about his constantly wet hands and the one Le Chiffre gave about crying blood?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    I think the after credits scene was their way of saying "yes, he definitely is alive". I don't think it has to be bigger than Reichenbach, there's a simple explanation that I thought of before series 3 started
    He had a brother, an actor who had the stage name Richard Brook, and used him as part of his plan. He blackmails him, saying he'll kill his family or something if his brother doesn't do exactly as he says. So his brother first goes to the journalist, and then later on shoots himself on the roof, and he does all this to protect people close to him. How did it seem so much like Moriarty? He's a trained actor. But Sherlock probably could've sussed out that it wasn't the real Moriarty if he didn't have more important stuff on his mind (figuring out the 13 scenarios on the roof). So Moriarty is alive and well, it's his brother who died.

    Or if they do go with the "it's somebody else" angle, I think it could be Sherlock himself. He's already shown that he's very manipulative, so maybe he set up the video, knowing that they'd let him stay in the UK as a free man if they thought Moriarty was on the lose again.
    I don't know. Moriarty has haunted Sherlock's mind ever since they first met face to face near the pool in The Great Game so I find it unlikely that he made it appear that he was alive just to escape exile, a part of the show I found underwhelming anyway. The ending exile of Sherlock left me empty because it was rushed and there was no sense of danger for Sherlock or anything resembling tension. What was supposed to be the final talk Sherlock and John shared together lacked essential elements and was just disappointing. These two are beyond friends, yet neither are torn up about never seeing each other again? I just don't get it.

    I'll rewatch the episode soon just to cement my feelings and see if some views of mine have changed. I still think bringing back Moriarty spoils and cheapens the aftershock that the fall had on the characters Sherlock "died" to protect, and ultimately writes Moffat, Gatiss and Thompson into a corner.
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,540
    Once again, I have to agree with you 0Brady... A little disappointed about this last chapter... :(
    and definitely, I don´t want Moriarty back. I still love Doyle´s references and good dialogues but Moriarty can´t be back.

    And, by the way, I don´t want to see Watson´s son either...
  • karatemanchan37karatemanchan37
    Posts: 584
    Has anybody considered that Moriarty's image is only used to fake the idea that he survived? Or is Sherlock actually a unreliable narrator in terms of his suicide?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    karatemanchan37 wrote:
    Has anybody considered that Moriarty's image is only used to fake the idea that he survived? Or is Sherlock actually a unreliable narrator in terms of his suicide?
    I am thinking
    it is not Moriarty - I do want him to be dead. But maybe Moran or another ... Moriarty's brother is a possibility ... using his image to put fear into people. So I am hoping it is to fake that he is alive; I do not want him to really be alive.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    Am I the only one who loved the cliffhanger and who hopes Moriarty is alive?
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre
    Posts: 1,548
    WillyGalore wrote:
    LeChiffre wrote:
    The Danish actor who played the villain in last night's episode- Magnussen, would make an excellent Bond villain ie Blofeld. He reminds me of a young Max Von Sydow. Tall and threatening. Make it happen Eon!

    You do realise that was Mads Mikkleson's brother Lars? :-)

    Didn't know that but now you mention it, they are facially similar. Perhaps my namesake has a brother out for revenge!

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited January 2014 Posts: 12,459
    @thelivingroyale,
    I did love the ending! But I don't want Moriarty really alive because I think it loses value ... we would soon get to the point where we cannot trust that any character is truly dead. I think he is a great villain, though, and perhaps his brother or cohort can continue, and he can continue to pop up in Sherlock's mind.

    Furthermore
    if he is really alive, it had better be plausible, clever, and really explained. Then I may be for it because I do think he is a great villain.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited January 2014 Posts: 40,676
    Way behind you lot, but I just finished episode two. I thought it was pretty interesting, though unfortunately, I think season three is my least favorite out of the whole show thus far. I'll add some ramblings in spoilers:
    I suppose it's a case of spicing up the formula, but with the first episode, I felt that the 'case' wasn't necessarily big and was completely shoe-horned in with the huge revelation of Sherlock's reappearance. Then, Magnusson (I'm guessing that's who that was? I just started the finale merely moments ago) was teased at the ending of the first episode...only to have completely disappeared in the second episode?

    Then, with the second episode, it's yet another big event - Watson's wedding - with another case that felt shoe-horned in. Don't get me wrong, how it was all explained was quite interesting, but everything just tied together in quite the forced way. I just feel like this season has a lot of huge events to focus on - Sherlock's return and the big wedding - but with that, I feel like even 90 minutes isn't enough to cover both an event and a case, whether they're tied together or not.

    I'm not sure what episode three is going to afford me, and I'm hoping we don't finally meet Magnusson, find out his grand scheme/plot, and then he's killed off or something. It's been a pretty dull buildup so far in that we haven't seen anything involving him, so time will tell, and my attitude on the entire season may change with how great I find the finale to be.
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    Yes, I saw that bit, but it could just be Moffat and co. making us wonder more and more whether he truly is alive. The way I see it, they've written themselves into a corner. If Moriarty really is alive then they'll have to stage events drastically bigger and more intense that Reichenbach, which is going to be very tough as you can only go down. If he's dead and it's someone else using his image to their own advantage, there will be a massive letdown felt by all those who have been presented with what seems like positive evidence that he is still alive. Either way, I think it'll be an interesting twist to see ridden out.
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    I think the after credits scene was their way of saying "yes, he definitely is alive". I don't think it has to be bigger than Reichenbach, there's a simple explanation that I thought of before series 3 started
    There was a Q&A posted in this thread with Moffat, Gatiss and Vertue, and one of them very clearly said, "Moriarty is dead!"
    So either that was a bold bluff, or Moriarty appearing after the end credits was.
    Either way, the producers proved that they´re not hesitant to mislead the speculators.
    Apart from that, my guess is
    a person or an organisation using the image of Moriarty, while the man himself is dead.
    Moriarty having a brother is too soap opera, but I´d go for Moriarty clones!

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    It may seem
    that Moriarty having a brother is soap opera - but it is in Doyle's writing. So they could easily do that if they chose to.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    4EverBonded wrote:
    It may seem
    that Moriarty having a brother is soap opera - but it is in Doyle's writing. So they could easily do that if they chose to.

    Here's the quote, from The Final Problem (story), to prove it:
    It is with a heavy heart that I take up my pen to write these the last words in which I shall ever record the singular gifts by which my friend Mr. Sherlock Holmes was distinguished. In an incoherent and, as I deeply feel, an entirely inadequate fashion, I have endeavored to give some account of my strange experiences in his company from the chance which first brought us together at the period of the "Study in Scarlet," up to the time of his interference in the matter of the "Naval Treaty"—an interference which had the unquestionable effect of preventing a serious international complication. It was my intention to have stopped there, and to have said nothing of that event which has created a void in my life which the lapse of two years has done little to fill. My hand has been forced, however, by the recent letters in which Colonel James Moriarty defends the memory of his brother, and I have no choice but to lay the facts before the public exactly as they occurred. I alone know the absolute truth of the matter, and I am satisfied that the time has come when no good purpose is to be served by its suppression. As far as I know, there have been only three accounts in the public press: that in the Journal de Geneve on May 6th, 1891, the Reuter's despatch in the English papers on May 7th, and finally the recent letter to which I have alluded. Of these the first and second were extremely condensed, while the last is, as I shall now show, an absolute perversion of the facts. It lies with me to tell for the first time what really took place between Professor Moriarty and Mr. Sherlock Holmes.
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,540
    Well...
    A brother is in the canon, but a "twin brother" is a little too much... :-?

    By the way, didn´t Moffat said before the third ep. that sometime somebody has to die? Was he talking of Sherlock? or Magnussen??
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    ggl007 wrote:
    Well...
    A brother is in the canon, but a "twin brother" is a little too much... :-?

    By the way, didn´t Moffat said before the third ep. that sometime somebody has to die? Was he talking of Sherlock? or Magnussen??
    I'm not saying there is any plausability in this theory, but from a brother with the same name to a brother with the same face I wouldn't blink a second.

    It was just like that, Gatiss tweeted "Sometimes somebody has to die". They were manipulating the audience, their speciality. That way people started speculating who was going to die. From the original story we knew Magnussen would be likely to die (as Milverton did), but people started thinking it was probably someone else, Mary, or Molly, or even Lestrade.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    Link to the Q&A that took place after the Bafta screening. It's quite interesting! Beware it's filled with spoilers.

    Also, something that has been bothering me, perhaps it means nothing but still
    Molly's fiancé (whatever his name was) simply vanished into thin air. Something serious must have happened? Now, we know her taste for men is... well... doomed. I'm going to put out a crazy, nonsensical idea: could that be the brother of you know who and she found out?
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,540
    I don´t think so, @Sandy, because...
    she would have tell Sherlock at once.

    And about Moffat tweet, well, technically, Sherlock died, but he has a hobbie... Resurrection! B-)
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    :D You're right. About that, I tried to send a question for the Q&A on twitter that took place after the last episode aired about the influence of Bond in Sherlock, especially in this last season. I was late and it didn't go through. There was another call for questions, this time for a Total Film podcast. I sent the question again, let's see if I have better luck this time. I think all of us here would like to know the answer, right?
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,540
    Sandy wrote:
    :D You're right. About that, I tried to send a question for the Q&A on twitter that took place after the last episode aired about the influence of Bond in Sherlock, especially in this last season. I was late and it didn't go through. There was another call for questions, this time for a Total Film podcast. I sent the question again, let's see if I have better luck this time. I think all of us here would like to know the answer, right?
    With pleasure, friend, with pleasure...
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    edited January 2014 Posts: 5,767
    Sandy wrote:
    Also, something that has been bothering me, perhaps it means nothing but still
    Molly's fiancé (whatever his name was) simply vanished into thin air. Something serious must have happened? Now, we know her taste for men is... well... doomed. I'm going to put out a crazy, nonsensical idea: could that be the brother of you know who and she found out?
    Molly herself
    hardly appeared besides in Sherlock´s mind, so her boyfriend not appearing
    doesn´t seem strange to me.




    Sandy wrote:
    4EverBonded wrote:
    It may seem
    that Moriarty having a brother is soap opera - but it is in Doyle's writing. So they could easily do that if they chose to.

    Here's the quote, from The Final Problem (story), to prove it:
    It is with a heavy heart that I take up my pen to write these the last words in which I shall ever record the singular gifts by which my friend Mr. Sherlock Holmes was distinguished. In an incoherent and, as I deeply feel, an entirely inadequate fashion, I have endeavored to give some account of my strange experiences in his company from the chance which first brought us together at the period of the "Study in Scarlet," up to the time of his interference in the matter of the "Naval Treaty"—an interference which had the unquestionable effect of preventing a serious international complication. It was my intention to have stopped there, and to have said nothing of that event which has created a void in my life which the lapse of two years has done little to fill. My hand has been forced, however, by the recent letters in which Colonel James Moriarty defends the memory of his brother, and I have no choice but to lay the facts before the public exactly as they occurred. I alone know the absolute truth of the matter, and I am satisfied that the time has come when no good purpose is to be served by its suppression. As far as I know, there have been only three accounts in the public press: that in the Journal de Geneve on May 6th, 1891, the Reuter's despatch in the English papers on May 7th, and finally the recent letter to which I have alluded. Of these the first and second were extremely condensed, while the last is, as I shall now show, an absolute perversion of the facts. It lies with me to tell for the first time what really took place between Professor Moriarty and Mr. Sherlock Holmes.
    Moriarty having a
    brother who speaks for him
    is not soap opera at all.
    Moriarty dying and then after one season his brother returning in his place
    is soap opera.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,676
    Well, I finished the season very early this morning:

    Overall, I definitely feel that it's my least favorite season of the show. I think they had an interesting possibility with the villain, but didn't utilize him enough so the finale wasn't as exciting as expected. I got a bit confused along the way, especially the ending - though it could've been because I was getting tired - and I thought the revelation of 'Moriarty is back' just wasn't impressive, especially with how amazing the season two finale was. I suppose we'll see what they can manage come season four, though right now, I'm not that excited as I was when I finished season two.
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