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What do you consider the most dire moment in a Bond film?

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  • BT3366BT3366
    edited September 2017 Posts: 1,883
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    As for Natalya - she's ok I guess, nothing extraordinary. Pretty much akin to Kara.

    I'll step in and spoil the love fest here and agree. Never liked Natalya during the first screening of GE and still think of her complaining and criticizing Bond rather than much of anything else. She may be more innocent and caught in the middle than the Bond equals, but why is so much of her dialogue devoted to being pissy?

    At least Onatopp was colorful and fun to have around while she lasted.

    To be fair, all of her friends were murdered in front of her.

    So let's take it out on the man trying to keep you alive?

    Melina Havelock saw her parents murdered in front of her and Camille the same and they are far more effective and better written characters.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    BT3366 wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    As for Natalya - she's ok I guess, nothing extraordinary. Pretty much akin to Kara.

    I'll step in and spoil the love fest here and agree. Never liked Natalya during the first screening of GE and still think of her complaining and criticizing Bond rather than much of anything else. She may be more innocent and caught in the middle than the Bond equals, but why is so much of her dialogue devoted to being pissy?

    At least Onatopp was colorful and fun to have around while she lasted.

    To be fair, all of her friends were murdered in front of her.

    So let's take it out on the man trying to keep you alive?

    She doesn't know that until they make it to Cuba. She's known Bond for less than what....an hour? She knows nothing of him really, including his motives. She was along for the ride until they go to Cuba. There, I don't think she was overly critical of Bond after the beach scene, which in itself was very fitting I think even if it was slightly cheesy.

    Once she realised that was Bond's purpose she was quite resourceful and became focused on her own mission.

    Different strokes for different folks I guess but I always found Natalya to be one of the most believable and strongly characterised Bond girls.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    As for Natalya - she's ok I guess, nothing extraordinary. Pretty much akin to Kara.

    I'll step in and spoil the love fest here and agree. Never liked Natalya during the first screening of GE and still think of her complaining and criticizing Bond rather than much of anything else. She may be more innocent and caught in the middle than the Bond equals, but why is so much of her dialogue devoted to being pissy?

    At least Onatopp was colorful and fun to have around while she lasted.

    To be fair, all of her friends were murdered in front of her.

    So let's take it out on the man trying to keep you alive?
    I always took it that she was playing a little bit of a caricature of the bossy Russian or East European matriarch (but in a far more attractive body than we normally see). It fit into that thing EON was pulling (uncomfortably) starting with LTK as they tried to modernize the series: namely the bossy female character putting Bond in his place.
  • StrogStrog
    edited September 2017 Posts: 684
    bondjames wrote: »
    I always took it that she was playing a little bit of a caricature of the bossy Russian or East European matriarch (but in a far more attractive body than we normally see). It fit into that thing EON was pulling (uncomfortably) starting with LTK as they tried to modernize the series: namely the bossy female character putting Bond in his place.
    Yes, a good observation. I agree that's what they were going for, and it is uncomfortable to an extent, especially with Pam in LTK. While it works with Natalya far better (at least for me), I can see how it could grate on some, as having the impression that Natalya 'asserts her independence' from Bond primarily via bossiness as opposed to, say, via her intelligence (she is a computer programmer after all) would seem a false step.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,883
    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I always took it that she was playing a little bit of a caricature of the bossy Russian or East European matriarch (but in a far more attractive body than we normally see). It fit into that thing EON was pulling (uncomfortably) starting with LTK as they tried to modernize the series: namely the bossy female character putting Bond in his place.
    Yes, a good observation. I agree that's what they were going for, and it is uncomfortable to an extent, especially with Pam in LTK. While it works with Natalya far better (at least for me), I can see how it could grate on some, as having the impression that Natalya 'asserts her independence' from Bond primarily via bossiness as opposed to, say, via her intelligence (she is a computer programmer after all) would seem a false step.

    You extended my thoughts quite well, Strog. Looking at GE as a whole, there are overtones of female characters putting Bond in his place everywhere from M and Moneypenny to Natalya, reflective of the era. Not saying they needed to stay rooted in the 1960s, but they didn't need to do a complete turn in the opposite direction either to move into the next era either or enhance enjoyment of it.
  • StrogStrog
    edited September 2017 Posts: 684
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I always took it that she was playing a little bit of a caricature of the bossy Russian or East European matriarch (but in a far more attractive body than we normally see). It fit into that thing EON was pulling (uncomfortably) starting with LTK as they tried to modernize the series: namely the bossy female character putting Bond in his place.
    Yes, a good observation. I agree that's what they were going for, and it is uncomfortable to an extent, especially with Pam in LTK. While it works with Natalya far better (at least for me), I can see how it could grate on some, as having the impression that Natalya 'asserts her independence' from Bond primarily via bossiness as opposed to, say, via her intelligence (she is a computer programmer after all) would seem a false step.

    You extended my thoughts quite well, Strog. Looking at GE as a whole, there are overtones of female characters putting Bond in his place everywhere from M and Moneypenny to Natalya, reflective of the era. Not saying they needed to stay rooted in the 1960s, but they didn't need to do a complete turn in the opposite direction either to move into the next era either or enhance enjoyment of it.
    Exactly @BT3366. A certain insecurity is at work in the way its handled. Instead of allowing the characters' actions to speak for themselves, we're essentially explained to that this era will be different. Bond has to tell Caroline that he respects female authority. In order to head off at the pass any suggestion that the Bond and Moneypenny banter is more of the 'same' sexist office talk of which the earlier films had been accused, Moneypenny has to (jokingly) suggest sexual harassment herself, diffusing any such criticism. M's calling Bond a sexist does the same work on the film as a whole, self-awareness acting as something of an absolving trait. These moments are interested solely in reaping the rewards of surface level criticism ("Look how progressive the Bond films have become" etc.) and marketing which takes on a slightly apologist tone ("The Bond girl I play isn't like the others, she's a strong character" and so on). Natalya's bossiness is arguably the lesser of all these offenses, in the sense that it's at least action rather than talk.

    I say all this, but keep in mind that (a) it does not follow on from the above that I think Natalya is in the end a weak character hiding behind her bossiness, merely that she is part of a film that betrays part of its aims in drawing attention to them, and also that (b) this is all nitpicks; on the whole I do enjoy GE (somewhere around mid-pack for me), and I think that it is in some ways a monument in the series. If Bond ended tomorrow, GE -- along with GF and MR -- would in my guess be the last films to recede from the popular memory.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,500
    I agree on a lot of what's written above. My problem with Natalya is that she seems to play more to the audience than the actual story. So much of her dialogue is indirectly directed to us, and you get the feeling that the character is aware of it in her delivery. The 'boys with toys' line comes across as a bit ridiculous as she herself spends so much time trying to play tough. It is something about the delivery too; "look at me, did you see that?! I am putting them in place, are you not impressed?". As an audience I don't feel the need to be adressed all the time. To me it feels forced, not natural.

    Vesper was far more believable in the way she stood up to Bond intellectually and intelligently. It is some way down to the more natural flowing dialogue but it also comes across as a much more convincing and confident delivery. It is something about the confidence of someone who doesn't need approval or encouragement all the time for her tough behavior, which I, somewhat oddly, get the sense that Isabella seeks during her portrayal.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    I don't understand this 'equal' discussion. Are we talking about women who were also spies, like Anya, Holly or Camille, or are we referring to women who stood up to him like Vesper (as opposed to Mary)?

    If it's the former then I agree with those who say there's no physical equal to Bond. OO7 is the hero after all so the plots are written in a manner to make him come out on top, even if ever so subtly.

    The Bond girl of B25, according to my inside source:
    article-1299585392921-0d849d43000005dc-177175_636x300.jpg
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Yep...Bond and Blofelds sister...one big happy,weird family.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
    Why does d'Abo (and her character) get so much negativity on these boards, I wonder? Is it because she's too human or that she never wears a flashy bikini? D'Abo gave her character life and it shows. She can be difficult and clingy towards Bond sometimes, but she's no cowardice (ventures alone to rescue Bond at the base). Maybe people see her shifting personality as a trait of bad writing or characterization, but displaying multiple emotions, as she does, only makes her more realistic and 'sympa' as the French would say. Kara is simply a cellist caught up in a hot mess and tries her best to get through it and help Bond on his mission. And remember that Bond himself is keeping his cards close to his chest and so she never gets told precisely what the heck is happening until the last part of the movie.

    It's a small but VERY vocal minority on these boards that hate on Kara so it kind of puts it out of proportion.

    She's an innocent Cellist, caught up in a world of espionage.

    Her character isn't the brightest bulb in the box but she has guts and spirit, which is what makes her so endearing.

    One of the best Bond girls.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 6,819
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
    Why does d'Abo (and her character) get so much negativity on these boards, I wonder? Is it because she's too human or that she never wears a flashy bikini? D'Abo gave her character life and it shows. She can be difficult and clingy towards Bond sometimes, but she's no cowardice (ventures alone to rescue Bond at the base). Maybe people see her shifting personality as a trait of bad writing or characterization, but displaying multiple emotions, as she does, only makes her more realistic and 'sympa' as the French would say. Kara is simply a cellist caught up in a hot mess and tries her best to get through it and help Bond on his mission. And remember that Bond himself is keeping his cards close to his chest and so she never gets told precisely what the heck is happening until the last part of the movie.

    It's a small but VERY vocal minority on these boards that hate on Kara so it kind of puts it out of proportion.

    She's an innocent Cellist, caught up in a world of espionage.

    Her character isn't the brightest bulb in the box but she has guts and spirit, which is what makes her so endearing.

    One of the best Bond girls.

    Absolutely!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Her character isn't the brightest bulb in the box....
    Truer words haven't been spoken on the matter.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Madonna (Mad-Donna for that crap theme and cameo). Robocop suit, kitesurfing Tsunami! Invisible car. John Cleese as Q in general.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    bondjames wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Her character isn't the brightest bulb in the box....
    Truer words haven't been spoken on the matter.

    Agreed.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,788
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
    Why does d'Abo (and her character) get so much negativity on these boards, I wonder? Is it because she's too human or that she never wears a flashy bikini? D'Abo gave her character life and it shows. She can be difficult and clingy towards Bond sometimes, but she's no cowardice (ventures alone to rescue Bond at the base). Maybe people see her shifting personality as a trait of bad writing or characterization, but displaying multiple emotions, as she does, only makes her more realistic and 'sympa' as the French would say. Kara is simply a cellist caught up in a hot mess and tries her best to get through it and help Bond on his mission. And remember that Bond himself is keeping his cards close to his chest and so she never gets told precisely what the heck is happening until the last part of the movie.

    It's a small but VERY vocal minority on these boards that hate on Kara so it kind of puts it out of proportion.

    She's an innocent Cellist, caught up in a world of espionage.

    Her character isn't the brightest bulb in the box but she has guts and spirit, which is what makes her so endearing.

    One of the best Bond girls.

    Absolutely!

    Agreed! Love her!
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited September 2017 Posts: 13,894
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    BondAficionado wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
    Why does d'Abo (and her character) get so much negativity on these boards, I wonder? Is it because she's too human or that she never wears a flashy bikini? D'Abo gave her character life and it shows. She can be difficult and clingy towards Bond sometimes, but she's no cowardice (ventures alone to rescue Bond at the base). Maybe people see her shifting personality as a trait of bad writing or characterization, but displaying multiple emotions, as she does, only makes her more realistic and 'sympa' as the French would say. Kara is simply a cellist caught up in a hot mess and tries her best to get through it and help Bond on his mission. And remember that Bond himself is keeping his cards close to his chest and so she never gets told precisely what the heck is happening until the last part of the movie.

    It's a small but VERY vocal minority on these boards that hate on Kara so it kind of puts it out of proportion.

    She's an innocent Cellist, caught up in a world of espionage.

    Her character isn't the brightest bulb in the box but she has guts and spirit, which is what makes her so endearing.

    One of the best Bond girls.

    Absolutely!

    "Better make that three." Her naivety is part of her appeal, it's understandable how Bond would want to protect her.
  • GerardGerard
    Posts: 5,811
    Has Bond done such a thing before? Chasing down a car with an airplane to rescue the Bond Girl? Seems like a genuinely new approach some viewers say they're looking for. Minus anything OO7 happened to have done in a previous film, I mean, like eyeballing the opposite transport then smiling. And a viewer doesn't have to like its execution, that's a given.

    Adding something like this, for example :

    629470_v2.jpg

    Found that today on Cracked.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,032
    Some folks lead charmed lives. Bond is one of those.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,733
    What do you consider the direst moment in a Bond film?
    The end credits, because it's over!
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    The Sean Connery Chinese disguise gets me every time..
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited September 2017 Posts: 40,474
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    PalmyraSharkRIP wrote: »
    Spectre pictures on the wall of bombed out MI6. Don't know why Blofeld went to Kinko's/FedEx first.

    Also, Moore describing Scaramanga's third nipple during the briefing. He sounds like he just drank a bunch of milk.

    On top of the fact that he was blindfolded to begin with and wouldn't have even seen the pictures.

    They blindfolded him to not allow him to see where he was going, not for walking through MI6. How this keeps coming up is boggling to me.

    Like in SF, where some people actually thought that Bond meant the scotch comment about Severine. Thought does actually go into these movies.

    Hadn't checked the thread in some time so I know this is old. Why blindfold him to take him back to the building he works at? It's not like he didn't already know the path there from where they abducted him.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Jaws falling in love with Dolly.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,032
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Hadn't checked the thread in some time so I know this is old. Why blindfold him to take him back to the building he works at? It's not like he didn't already know the path there from where they abducted him.
    So he wouldn't try to escape between being nicked and arriving there. Or has less chance to.
    A good bad guy protocol.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Direst moment? The end of OHMSS. 2nd place the SPECTRE drill scene...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Direst moment? The end of OHMSS.

    Oh dear. There's always one.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,500
    A dubbed Laz sitting around a bunch of horny damsells in a feast of sillines that seems to last forever, is a contender though. It makes me cringe all the time!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Hadn't checked the thread in some time so I know this is old. Why blindfold him to take him back to the building he works at? It's not like he didn't already know the path there from where they abducted him.
    So he wouldn't try to escape between being nicked and arriving there. Or has less chance to.
    A good bad guy protocol.

    So they can do that but they can't take his PPK away from him?
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited September 2017 Posts: 12,837
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    RichardTheBruce wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Hadn't checked the thread in some time so I know this is old. Why blindfold him to take him back to the building he works at? It's not like he didn't already know the path there from where they abducted him.
    So he wouldn't try to escape between being nicked and arriving there. Or has less chance to.
    A good bad guy protocol.

    So they can do that but they can't take his PPK away from him?

    I guess Blofeld wanted him to keep it for the bit where the targets pop up with all the people from Bond's past? More likely just an oversight though.
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Direst moment? The end of OHMSS.

    Oh dear. There's always one.

    I think @chrisisall was taking the thread title literally? As in direst situation Bond has been in. Losing his wife and having his skull drilled are both very painful. Or maybe he meant the Bond theme blaring over the end credits which was a weird choice.
    jobo wrote: »
    A dubbed Laz sitting around a bunch of horny damsells in a feast of sillines that seems to last forever, is a contender though. It makes me cringe all the time!

    Yeah that's the only bit of the film I really don't like. Seems to drag on and those bits are pretty cringe worthy ("call me Hilly"). But of course the moment Bond is captured the film just takes things to another level and you forget all about the Hilary Bray stuff straight away. Bond's whole escape right through to his panic at trying to lose the guards in the village is the tensest stuff of the series imo. So exciting and gripping and so so tense. Feels like a proper spy film, it's the only time I've been genuinely worried for Bond when he's close to getting caught. Real edge of your seat stuff. Only the OP train/circus sequence comes close in terms of tension imo.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    The dubbing is kind of distracting but I can accept it.

    The only bit of that dinner scene I really don't like is the line: "what does a gyna...genealogist do?"

    It's juvenile and quite vulgar.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The banana eating scene was a bit much for me personally. No, I'm not making any PC statement. It just stands out.
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