What to keep and what to get rid of from the Craig era.

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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,105
    One last thing that I say get rid of: conning the audience with surprise character reveals. It only worked to a degree for Moneypenny. Even a blind person could see that Christoph Waltz was going to be Blofeld. Once again, give it a rest, EON.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,719
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    One last thing that I say get rid of: conning the audience with surprise character reveals. It only worked to a degree for Moneypenny. Even a blind person could see that Christoph Waltz was going to be Blofeld. Once again, give it a rest, EON.

    During the press conference:
    -So, Idris, what does it feel like to be the new Bond?
    -Bond? No, I'm not playing Bond. I'm playing Sir Hilary Bray.
    -(sigh and eyeroll) Okay, Idris, have it your way.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,925
    Yes, the character reveals are never actual reveals - waste of time, really.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,510
    The Blofeld reveal would have worked had Dave Bautista been revealed as Blofeld. It would have fit more with the Craig era subversion, that was rooted in Fleming
  • MI6HQ wrote: »
    I think Barbara and Michael have done brilliantly and should go on doing things just as they'd like, really. But if it were up to me...

    KEEP
    1. Most of the tone of the last two movies (well, save the last section of NTTD). Spectre is where EON finally stopped being afraid to make a James Bond movie. Ejector seats, crater bases, bionic eyes, all wonderfully whimsically stuff mixed into slightly serious films. Just what I love.

    2. The A-list directors and cinematography. The last four Bond movies are easily among the best-looking blockbusters I've ever seen, and I would not want to return to the bland, generic look of Martin Campbell or Roger Spottiswoode-type stuff.

    3. Disregarding fan opinion. The Bond fan community is full of lovely folks who have some terrible ideas about what James Bond films should be like, and many only really like 10-30% of the incredibly successful films released in the last 30 years. It seems clear to me that the producers have not been listening to these people, and they should continue in that fashion.

    GET RID OF
    1. Multi-film arcs. I liked the one they did with Craig, but they don't need to do another one. Let this be an anthology they did once.

    2. Ballads as theme songs. Again, the last three movies all had pretty decent songs, but it's enough of that flavor now. Don't need rock either. Duran Duran are as great as ever, why not go pop?

    3. Bad guys being connected to MI6. This has happened to some degree in every movie since Goldeneye. It was lame in the Brosnan era, and more organic in the Craig era, and not really bad at all, but it's enough for now.
    I think you are being generous there too. Classics defined by the critics and fans alike, you would say GE, CR and SF.

    That's 3 out of 9. QoS and NTTD are not deemed classics, if anything they are very polarising to the fan base (particularly NTTD).

    I don't know that Goldeneye was any kind of critical darling, and I think it's generous to assume that the early classics were considered incredible films upon release, or that their current status is somehow related to the writing/direction/producers/etc.

    I would add: A Bond Girl actress with different nationality, don't know, I'm just tired of French actresses being cast as Bond Girls, and it happened consistently in the Craig Era:

    1. Eva Green - Pure French
    2. Olga Kurylenko - Half French
    3. Berenice Marlohe - Half French
    4. Lea Seydoux - Pure French

    I would liked to see maybe an Irish one? Australian? Brazilian? Croatian? German (Maria Freudenstein, anyone?), Quebecois (Vivienne Michel?)

    Many here shouting for Marion Cotillard, another French Actress again?

    Let's give some French actresses a rest for a while.

    Same for the locations as well, have Bond travel outside of Europe.

    A Quebecois actress would be a nice change from all the French actresses.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,487
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    I think Barbara and Michael have done brilliantly and should go on doing things just as they'd like, really. But if it were up to me...

    KEEP
    1. Most of the tone of the last two movies (well, save the last section of NTTD). Spectre is where EON finally stopped being afraid to make a James Bond movie. Ejector seats, crater bases, bionic eyes, all wonderfully whimsically stuff mixed into slightly serious films. Just what I love.

    2. The A-list directors and cinematography. The last four Bond movies are easily among the best-looking blockbusters I've ever seen, and I would not want to return to the bland, generic look of Martin Campbell or Roger Spottiswoode-type stuff.

    3. Disregarding fan opinion. The Bond fan community is full of lovely folks who have some terrible ideas about what James Bond films should be like, and many only really like 10-30% of the incredibly successful films released in the last 30 years. It seems clear to me that the producers have not been listening to these people, and they should continue in that fashion.

    GET RID OF
    1. Multi-film arcs. I liked the one they did with Craig, but they don't need to do another one. Let this be an anthology they did once.

    2. Ballads as theme songs. Again, the last three movies all had pretty decent songs, but it's enough of that flavor now. Don't need rock either. Duran Duran are as great as ever, why not go pop?

    3. Bad guys being connected to MI6. This has happened to some degree in every movie since Goldeneye. It was lame in the Brosnan era, and more organic in the Craig era, and not really bad at all, but it's enough for now.
    I think you are being generous there too. Classics defined by the critics and fans alike, you would say GE, CR and SF.

    That's 3 out of 9. QoS and NTTD are not deemed classics, if anything they are very polarising to the fan base (particularly NTTD).

    I don't know that Goldeneye was any kind of critical darling, and I think it's generous to assume that the early classics were considered incredible films upon release, or that their current status is somehow related to the writing/direction/producers/etc.

    I would add: A Bond Girl actress with different nationality, don't know, I'm just tired of French actresses being cast as Bond Girls, and it happened consistently in the Craig Era:

    1. Eva Green - Pure French
    2. Olga Kurylenko - Half French
    3. Berenice Marlohe - Half French
    4. Lea Seydoux - Pure French

    I would liked to see maybe an Irish one? Australian? Brazilian? Croatian? German (Maria Freudenstein, anyone?), Quebecois (Vivienne Michel?)

    Many here shouting for Marion Cotillard, another French Actress again?

    Let's give some French actresses a rest for a while.

    Same for the locations as well, have Bond travel outside of Europe.

    A Quebecois actress would be a nice change from all the French actresses.

    😂 😂 😂
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,390
    peter wrote: »
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    I think Barbara and Michael have done brilliantly and should go on doing things just as they'd like, really. But if it were up to me...

    KEEP
    1. Most of the tone of the last two movies (well, save the last section of NTTD). Spectre is where EON finally stopped being afraid to make a James Bond movie. Ejector seats, crater bases, bionic eyes, all wonderfully whimsically stuff mixed into slightly serious films. Just what I love.

    2. The A-list directors and cinematography. The last four Bond movies are easily among the best-looking blockbusters I've ever seen, and I would not want to return to the bland, generic look of Martin Campbell or Roger Spottiswoode-type stuff.

    3. Disregarding fan opinion. The Bond fan community is full of lovely folks who have some terrible ideas about what James Bond films should be like, and many only really like 10-30% of the incredibly successful films released in the last 30 years. It seems clear to me that the producers have not been listening to these people, and they should continue in that fashion.

    GET RID OF
    1. Multi-film arcs. I liked the one they did with Craig, but they don't need to do another one. Let this be an anthology they did once.

    2. Ballads as theme songs. Again, the last three movies all had pretty decent songs, but it's enough of that flavor now. Don't need rock either. Duran Duran are as great as ever, why not go pop?

    3. Bad guys being connected to MI6. This has happened to some degree in every movie since Goldeneye. It was lame in the Brosnan era, and more organic in the Craig era, and not really bad at all, but it's enough for now.
    I think you are being generous there too. Classics defined by the critics and fans alike, you would say GE, CR and SF.

    That's 3 out of 9. QoS and NTTD are not deemed classics, if anything they are very polarising to the fan base (particularly NTTD).

    I don't know that Goldeneye was any kind of critical darling, and I think it's generous to assume that the early classics were considered incredible films upon release, or that their current status is somehow related to the writing/direction/producers/etc.

    I would add: A Bond Girl actress with different nationality, don't know, I'm just tired of French actresses being cast as Bond Girls, and it happened consistently in the Craig Era:

    1. Eva Green - Pure French
    2. Olga Kurylenko - Half French
    3. Berenice Marlohe - Half French
    4. Lea Seydoux - Pure French

    I would liked to see maybe an Irish one? Australian? Brazilian? Croatian? German (Maria Freudenstein, anyone?), Quebecois (Vivienne Michel?)

    Many here shouting for Marion Cotillard, another French Actress again?

    Let's give some French actresses a rest for a while.

    Same for the locations as well, have Bond travel outside of Europe.

    A Quebecois actress would be a nice change from all the French actresses.

    😂 😂 😂

    Oh I know what you guys mean.....

    Yes, I mean a Canadian, yes, they speak French at some point, but they're still different from French People, right?

    And do we even had a Canadian Bond Girl before? I bet we don't, so it's still a nice change.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited August 2022 Posts: 1,689
    And who else would you acknowledge as being responsible for the success of those early pictures, if not for the writers/producers/direction? Sean Connery alone?

    No, just being a new type of movie with virtually no competition or similar franchises would make them successful, and they're classics as a result of staying in the public consciousness by having new movies every couple years for decades, and old guys who grew up with them writing about them all the time.

  • Posts: 1,562
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    I think Barbara and Michael have done brilliantly and should go on doing things just as they'd like, really. But if it were up to me...

    KEEP
    1. Most of the tone of the last two movies (well, save the last section of NTTD). Spectre is where EON finally stopped being afraid to make a James Bond movie. Ejector seats, crater bases, bionic eyes, all wonderfully whimsically stuff mixed into slightly serious films. Just what I love.

    2. The A-list directors and cinematography. The last four Bond movies are easily among the best-looking blockbusters I've ever seen, and I would not want to return to the bland, generic look of Martin Campbell or Roger Spottiswoode-type stuff.

    3. Disregarding fan opinion. The Bond fan community is full of lovely folks who have some terrible ideas about what James Bond films should be like, and many only really like 10-30% of the incredibly successful films released in the last 30 years. It seems clear to me that the producers have not been listening to these people, and they should continue in that fashion.

    GET RID OF
    1. Multi-film arcs. I liked the one they did with Craig, but they don't need to do another one. Let this be an anthology they did once.

    2. Ballads as theme songs. Again, the last three movies all had pretty decent songs, but it's enough of that flavor now. Don't need rock either. Duran Duran are as great as ever, why not go pop?

    3. Bad guys being connected to MI6. This has happened to some degree in every movie since Goldeneye. It was lame in the Brosnan era, and more organic in the Craig era, and not really bad at all, but it's enough for now.
    I think you are being generous there too. Classics defined by the critics and fans alike, you would say GE, CR and SF.

    That's 3 out of 9. QoS and NTTD are not deemed classics, if anything they are very polarising to the fan base (particularly NTTD).

    I don't know that Goldeneye was any kind of critical darling, and I think it's generous to assume that the early classics were considered incredible films upon release, or that their current status is somehow related to the writing/direction/producers/etc.

    I would add: A Bond Girl actress with different nationality, don't know, I'm just tired of French actresses being cast as Bond Girls, and it happened consistently in the Craig Era:

    1. Eva Green - Pure French
    2. Olga Kurylenko - Half French
    3. Berenice Marlohe - Half French
    4. Lea Seydoux - Pure French

    I would liked to see maybe an Irish one? Australian? Brazilian? Croatian? German (Maria Freudenstein, anyone?), Quebecois (Vivienne Michel?)

    Many here shouting for Marion Cotillard, another French Actress again?

    Let's give some French actresses a rest for a while.

    Same for the locations as well, have Bond travel outside of Europe.

    A Quebecois actress would be a nice change from all the French actresses.

    😂 😂 😂

    Oh I know what you guys mean.....

    Yes, I mean a Canadian, yes, they speak French at some point, but they're still different from French People, right?

    And do we even had a Canadian Bond Girl before? I bet we don't, so it's still a nice change.

    Whatev ! Just so long as it is understood that there exists some sort of international treaty, enforceable, apparently by death, never to set a Bond film in Canada ! Apparently, not in Australia or Aotearoa, either. There might be an exception to allow locating and filming in Tasmania, A TpDevil might be the new villain's favorite pet...Bond awakens from a stupor, stands up and brushes off his tuxedo, shoots his cuffs and sniffs his carnation. "You know," says Bond, "I recall where I lost consciousness, but confess you have me at a loss as to where I have awoken !" "Don't worry, Mr. Bond," says the villain, from across the room, petting a shocking silver Tasmanian Devil wearing a diamond necklace, "no matter what may happen in the next 30 minutes and what has transpired between us to date, I assure you that you have not awoken in Canada. Even I, Mr. Bond..." the villain sniffs, pauses and raises a glass of exceedingly rare and expensive wine to his mouth, before saying "...have my limits." "Aah, I must tell M next time I see him. I told him as much. Now he owes me dinner and a cheroot at his club !" "Next time you see M, Mr. Bond ?" queries the villain. "I'm afraid you assume too much. And you know, Mr. Bond, what happens when you ASSUME ? I assure you - I do not care what you make of yourself, but you will not make an Ass out of me !" Bond smiles, and then says "So says the person petting a Tasmanian devil with a dye job, a rhinestone necklace and an overpriced bottle of Trader Joe's finest !"
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,925
    Yeah, but when The New Avengers went to Canada it tanked the series...
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,689
    Oh, and no more Italy FFS
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited August 2022 Posts: 7,526
    Oh, and no more Italy FFS

    No, no, please continue with the Italy. ;)

    They could make a film where Bond just sits at a cafe next to Lake Como for 2.5 hours and I'd watch it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,973
    Just one more film and they get their delicatessen!
  • echo wrote: »
    Just one more film and they get their delicatessen!

    It’d better be in Stainless Steel!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,925
    They could make a film where Bond just sits at a cafe next to Lake Como for 2.5 hours and I'd watch it.
    Man, I'd watch Vesper just wandering around the grounds for a week in real time, while she's waiting for Bond to regain consciousness... 😛

  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,719
    Venutius wrote: »
    They could make a film where Bond just sits at a cafe next to Lake Como for 2.5 hours and I'd watch it.
    Man, I'd watch Vesper just wandering around the grounds for a week in real time, while she's waiting for Bond to regain consciousness... 😛

    You're a dreamer.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,925
    Hah, yeh - shortly after seeing The Dreamers for the first time, I was at work and it just dawned on me that I had no memory of what I'd been doing for the last 10 or 15 minutes - then I realised that I'd just sat there and zoned out, thinking about Eva Green in that film! Not even kidding! :D
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    *adds The Dreamers to the list*
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,461
    I've seen a few snippets of The Dreamers and, uh, yeah, it's, uhhhh, it's great!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,719
    Great film. I mean, I haven't seen it yet, but it's great for sure.

    But I honestly also want to see it for its value as a film. Along with Bertolucci's The Last Emperor and Tragedy of a Ridiculous Man.

    And yeah, yeah, for Eva Green, no shame in admitting it.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,461
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Great film. I mean, I haven't seen it yet, but it's great for sure.

    But I honestly also want to see it for its value as a film. Along with Bertolucci's The Last Emperor and Tragedy of a Ridiculous Man.

    And yeah, yeah, for Eva Green, no shame in admitting it.

    All kidding aside, I'm sure it's a pretty excellent film. I need to get around to seeing it in full sometime soon.

    I have seen The Last Emperor and thought it was great.

    Sorry, I'll stop running this thread off track now.
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 1,215
    Potentially contentious take, but I’d like for the major events of the Vesper and Tracy relationships to remain in the canon of this rebooted Bond, without reusing those stories as the bases for the films plots.

    For instance, treat the events similarly to the death of Thomas & Martha Wayne in The Batman. We don’t see the murders as they’ve been done, and done well, several times and have a lot of familiarity with general audiences. Still, the event is referenced and is an important piece of the emotional stakes of the story as well as the development of Bruce/Batman as a character. In fact, it even manages to put lend some fresh context to the canon established in several Batman films. In Bond’s case, the Casino Royale film and novel, the On Her Majesty’s Secret Service film and novel (Spectre/No Time to Die as more contemporary reinterpretations) serve as good in-depth reference points.

    By adopting this approach and leaning on the knowledge of the past films a bit you can; firstly, retain the benefits of rebooting with a new actor and “clean slate”. Secondly, you establish some of the complex motivations and gravitas behind the character, without spending entire films (or multiple films) telling the “Becoming Bond” stories.

    That said, I’d like to see the death of Bond’s parents, his upbringing/youth, and his Naval service explored onscreen in the upcoming reboot. I feel that they’re formative events that could still be depicted compellingly onscreen without totally demystifying the character. I actually think it would add something fresh to the series.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,390
    Potentially contentious take, but I’d like for the major events of the Vesper and Tracy relationships to remain in the canon of this rebooted Bond, without reusing those stories as the bases for the films plots.

    For instance, treat the events similarly to the death of Thomas & Martha Wayne in The Batman. We don’t see the murders as they’ve been done, and done well, several times and have a lot of familiarity with general audiences. Still, the event is referenced and is an important piece of the emotional stakes of the story as well as the development of Bruce/Batman as a character. In fact, it even manages to put lend some fresh context to the canon established in several Batman films. In Bond’s case, the Casino Royale film and novel, the On Her Majesty’s Secret Service film and novel (Spectre/No Time to Die as more contemporary reinterpretations) serve as good in-depth reference points.

    By adopting this approach and leaning on the knowledge of the past films a bit you can; firstly, retain the benefits of rebooting with a new actor and “clean slate”. Secondly, you establish some of the complex motivations and gravitas behind the character, without spending entire films (or multiple films) telling the “Becoming Bond” stories.

    That said, I’d like to see the death of Bond’s parents, his upbringing/youth, and his Naval service explored onscreen in the upcoming reboot. I feel that they’re formative events that could still be depicted compellingly onscreen without totally demystifying the character. I actually think it would add something fresh to the series.

    This is a good idea.
  • Potentially contentious take, but I’d like for the major events of the Vesper and Tracy relationships to remain in the canon of this rebooted Bond, without reusing those stories as the bases for the films plots.

    For instance, treat the events similarly to the death of Thomas & Martha Wayne in The Batman. We don’t see the murders as they’ve been done, and done well, several times and have a lot of familiarity with general audiences. Still, the event is referenced and is an important piece of the emotional stakes of the story as well as the development of Bruce/Batman as a character. In fact, it even manages to put lend some fresh context to the canon established in several Batman films. In Bond’s case, the Casino Royale film and novel, the On Her Majesty’s Secret Service film and novel (Spectre/No Time to Die as more contemporary reinterpretations) serve as good in-depth reference points.

    By adopting this approach and leaning on the knowledge of the past films a bit you can; firstly, retain the benefits of rebooting with a new actor and “clean slate”. Secondly, you establish some of the complex motivations and gravitas behind the character, without spending entire films (or multiple films) telling the “Becoming Bond” stories.

    That said, I’d like to see the death of Bond’s parents, his upbringing/youth, and his Naval service explored onscreen in the upcoming reboot. I feel that they’re formative events that could still be depicted compellingly onscreen without totally demystifying the character. I actually think it would add something fresh to the series.

    Not contentious at all I don't think. In fact, incorporating both Vesper and Tracy into the history of the next Bond would be a very good way to move forward.
  • Posts: 2,880
    Potentially contentious take, but I’d like for the major events of the Vesper and Tracy relationships to remain in the canon of this rebooted Bond, without reusing those stories as the bases for the films plots.

    For instance, treat the events similarly to the death of Thomas & Martha Wayne in The Batman. We don’t see the murders as they’ve been done, and done well, several times and have a lot of familiarity with general audiences. Still, the event is referenced and is an important piece of the emotional stakes of the story as well as the development of Bruce/Batman as a character. In fact, it even manages to put lend some fresh context to the canon established in several Batman films. In Bond’s case, the Casino Royale film and novel, the On Her Majesty’s Secret Service film and novel (Spectre/No Time to Die as more contemporary reinterpretations) serve as good in-depth reference points.

    By adopting this approach and leaning on the knowledge of the past films a bit you can; firstly, retain the benefits of rebooting with a new actor and “clean slate”. Secondly, you establish some of the complex motivations and gravitas behind the character, without spending entire films (or multiple films) telling the “Becoming Bond” stories.

    That said, I’d like to see the death of Bond’s parents, his upbringing/youth, and his Naval service explored onscreen in the upcoming reboot. I feel that they’re formative events that could still be depicted compellingly onscreen without totally demystifying the character. I actually think it would add something fresh to the series.

    I like the comparisons with Batman. I do think an important aspect of Bond is the fact that he's had a few tragedies in his life. Obviously they really leaned into this in the Craig era/went down the more Byronic hero route, but it's always been there to one extent or the other.

    I'd say if they were going for a younger version of Bond this time round, then Tracy and the events of OHMSS aren't required, but Vesper is another story. I'm not sure if I'd want to see it referenced in depth as it's very much still on people's minds after the Craig era, but something not unlike the moment in TWINE where Elektra asks Bond if he's ever lost someone and Bond gives an indirect answer could be effective.

    I'd like to see Bond's naval service referenced too. I don't particularly want to see a whole film with Bond before he was 007/in the navy, but rather include a scene where perhaps Bond has to meet up with an ally he knew from his navy days or he simply shows expertise about some sort of naval/operation tactic.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,487
    If the new guy has a taste for fine wines, women and food; likes fast cars; has a love of country in a way that fits Fleming rather than today’s jingoism; exotic travel and finds himself in danger at every turn; risk taker in all pursuits; gambler and exquisite fashion, then I’d say these are all fine qualities and leave the specific Craig Era traits in the Craig era.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,973
    I just hope they don't do another origin story like the Spiderman reboots. It cheapens it somehow.

    Just have him already be a 00 and move on with the story with a younger Bond.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,487
    There’s no benefit in repeating the past; trying to replicate Connery or Moore or Brozz or Craig is just going to deliver diminishing returns.

    There are archetypal expectations for this character. Take those and spin it so it feels unique to the new era.

    It’s all in the execution. But trying to keep anything specifically from the Craig era and continuing it into the new era will fail (no origin story; new actors in roles that will return, no Madeleine, no Vesper, no Skyfall lodge….; DB5? Maybe/sure; tuxedos and great suits; hedonism via sex and drink and fast cars; a man of risks and danger— yes, yes, yes and yes)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2022 Posts: 5,973
    With Bond #7, I don't want Tracy or Vesper in the past, or a return to either of the two continuities, which are so top-heavy or old at this point that it would make no sense.

    Give me something new. A new Bond, M, Moneypenny. All new.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,925
    peter wrote: »
    There are archetypal expectations for this character. Take those and spin it so it feels unique to the new era.
    Yes, exactly this.
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