PETITION: Give the fans a more influential say in the (uncertain) future of the James Bond franchise

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Comments

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Oooowh please, stop your negative cynical comments. Can't you just see...SEE.....that this petition comes from a good heart? I spent some days to write that frikkin' letter, in the nicest, most thoughtful way. All of the negativity and criticism I read from forummembers basically empowered me to write it! I summed up arguments that, in my opinion, make perfect sense. Instead, you keep focussing on just the headline of the petition, when in essence this is so much more; this is about empowering EON to do their uttermost best in creating the best possible film! Nothing more, nothing less. What's wrong about that?!?!

    Secondly, I have had it with the sheer negativity in this forum. Criticism is one thing. And sometimes rightfully so. There are fans in here who create the most lovely pieces of fan art, even though I am crritical about that. Through discussion I actually learned to like fan art. That's what fans do as well: Uniting! So, when I do my uttermost best, spent hours in writing in my best English something that in essence is 200% positive, this topic turns into something I could not have even predicted! Just.....why can't WE forummembers not say something like "Oooowh I am not sure I agree, but great work dear forummember!". Is that so difficult? Just...just reflect a bit on what has been written in here. Is it really OK to say all this? Some people sincerely feel bad about that. And that does include me..

    Just show a bit more empathy amidst all your cynicism and, rightful, criticism @TheWizardOfIce. That's not much to ask?? And this message also counts for certain forum moderators in here. And if this petition doesn't help shit? So be it! At least it comes from a good, positive heart! I prefer THIS over all that bickering in the "Production Topic". I know your cynical comments create fun and laughter every now and then. But please also realize that your comments sometimes hurt people's best intentions. And if I hurt some people in here? Look, I stay silent for a moment and I apoligize.

    @Gustav_Graves, with all due respect, I think this is another situation of you getting too worked up over something you needn't be. It isn't lost on most of us the work or thought you put into this, but you presented it to either be agreed or disagreed with and we all spoke our minds. There's little more to be said. You made a big deal about how this is a democracy and, true to a democracy, we took our vote. I don't think anyone other than yourself who has posted in this thread has agreed with your petition or thought even of signing it, which is about a 20:1 ratio in favor of the "Nay" camp. That's your result.

    You make it out that all of us made fun of you and ridiculed your spent time, but I think at least 90% of those who posted their thoughts were actually quite accommodating in their opinions, respected yours, and presented their viewpoint honestly and openly. You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is one of the cynical or negative ones, but I and many others were simply saying things how they are. If we don't seek logic and rationality in our lives there's little point, and to be frank your idea has no utility in the "real world" film industry. Many people beyond me have expressed why that is, and why such an approach wouldn't be able to be executed or why it wouldn't work. That's our opinion, as a collective forum, so take it or leave it.

    The mood of the forum sometimes annoys me too, but I think you've over-exaggerated the state of the franchise here, something else everyone who has posted here seems to agree with me on as well. I don't know anyone here who has said the Bond franchise is going to a quick grave after Bond 25, or that there is a do or die moment for EON where the entire lifeblood of the franchise is riding on the next movie. There are definite concerns with who will distribute the films and issues like that, but those are pretty standard hoops in the industry to jump through (negotiations and contracts make up so much of it) so a very regular aspect of making films has been blown out of proportion as a big cause for worry when it needn't be seen as such. Nothing, and I mean nothing, will threaten the Bond franchise's continued existence. When the films are starting to make more than or near a billion each time out, and have been doing amazing financially since they first came out in the 60s regardless, there's no way that cash cow would be put out to pasture. Studios would kill to have a franchise as dependable and profitable from a box office and merchandising standpoint as Bond, so 007 ain't going nowhere.

    You say you want to use the petition to empower EON to make their best Bond film, but they already do that each time they make one, so again I don't see the point in getting so concerned. Michael, Barbara and co. don't sit around starved for positivity and think, "If only we had a fire lit under us to motivate us to make a good film!" They're using big studio money to make blockbuster films, they understand the risks involved and they always try to do their damnedest, no matter what the fans think, to turn out a solid film in their mind.

    Just understand that for every opinion you have there will be an opposing one, and that most of the time those debating you aren't trying to bring you down. We all have different thoughts on Bond and where the series would go, but in this case I think most agree that the series isn't in any danger and at the very worst simply needs refreshed from a creative standpoint, which I don't think many would disagree with. But it's not going anywhere and I don't think fans should be petitioning for a say when EON are doing fine on their own. I would rather see petitions for things like soliciting governments to give aid to starving populations, or to stop wars, etc, things that, to be frank, actually matter beyond the make believe world of the film industry and can change our lives in a real and profound way. No matter if they come from a good place or not, petitions that are very trivial and that aren't committed to fighting a real cause that endangers many in our real world seem very silly in comparison to all the petitions we could be making in their place. That's not meant as a slant, that's just me being honest.
  • Opinions are OK to me. But for me it's also about the way they are presented. And suffice it to say, once I am away from this forum, I receive criticism that is a bit more....positive-spirited. There are even people who gave me good advice on how to slightly change the petition. But all I read in here basically comes down to "useless loss of time......never works.....better to stop this madness". That's not nice @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. There's not even one person in here who was willing to carefully discuss certain arguments or bullet points from my letter. I mean, I liked "SPECTRE" a lot. But even I am honestly admitting that something went wrong with the production of that film.

    People are just........harsh in here. Obviously I am worked up, because I spent some hours on writing that letter. I hold that letter very dearly to me. It perfectly verbalizes my worries about the direction of the Bond franchise. I had this in my mind for such a while. I couldn't sleep over it. Then I feel relieved and happy that I actually did it: Creating this petition, based on my letter. So obviously I am worked up here. I know for once that @Murdock felt very bad when I criticised his fan art and those of other fan artists in this forum. I apoligized for that, because I felt sincerely bad to what I had caused. I was belittling other people's work. Now I know exactly how they feel.

    And from forum members in here, I would have expected more than just harsh realism that is bathing in cynism and passiveness. Do I need to change my attitude?? Let it....rest? I'm not sure. Forum members in here need to realize that you can honestly apoligize, can be empathic with others, give them a cyber-hug if someone feels offended, empower them to do better. We are all human beings, some are more emotional than others. But basically saying "Aaah it's better to cut your crap, delete that petition and take a hike" is never nice. Not to mention the way this topic evolves, and how obviously people are belittling my intentions. Hence I think even your lengthy remark falls a bit flat......or comes at least at a wrong moment.

    Do I need to....stop? Swallow it? Cut it? No. Others need to show a bit more respect in here.....and offer something more than a suicidal destruction of someone's hard work.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 12,837
    If we think it's useless we're allowed to say so. I don't know why you're taking this so personally. Nobody is personally attacking you, just the idea of a petition, which you put out there for feedback. We all know you worked hard on it and I think most people have taken this into account and been respectful. Even @TheWizard was very fair in his first response. The light hearted digs only came when you refused to take any feedback that wasn't "yes Gustav, I will sign, thank you".
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I just don't see the same harshness, @Gustav_Graves, and you are stepping into an offensive line too to make everyone out to be the same cynical opponent to you. The vast, vast majority of responses have not at all been like that, and have in fact been very well constructed and thought out arguments from the other side of the fence.

    You say no discussion about the contents of your letter and your arguments have been occurring, but that's exactly what I see. From the very first page I and other members were taking parts of your article/message and debating why we had the opinions we did about it. We argued by the distributor issue wasn't a big concern, why fan panels wouldn't work, why we didn't see the film industry as cut off from fans and why we didn't think the Bond franchise was going anywhere or in danger of death. We responded to every piece of your letter, quite fairly, might I add, so I don't know what more you expect.

    If this bugs you so much and you lost sleep over the concept of a simple petition, I seriously think you need to ease off the gas and not let it bother you so much. It's not worth getting upset over the views of others that have largely been pretty damn fair, and that haven't been this slander campaign or hate brigade you make these responses out to be.

    Here is where I think you're losing the context of the argument and just letting things get to you that aren't there:
    And from forum members in here, I would have expected more than just harsh realism that is bathing in cynism and passiveness. Do I need to change my attitude?? Let it....rest? I'm not sure. Forum members in here need to realize that you can honestly apoligize, can be empathic with others, give them a cyber-hug if someone feels offended, empower them to do better. We are all human beings, some are more emotional than others. But basically saying "Aaah it's better to cut your crap, delete that petition and take a hike" is never nice. Not to mention the way this topic evolves, and how obviously people are belittling my intentions. Hence I think even your lengthy remark falls a bit flat......or comes at least at a wrong moment.
    If you have a problem with members being realistic about their responses to you, I think that's a problem on your side and not ours. There is no utility in not thinking rationally and no point in not imagining what could really happen, as anything else is a delusion in the service of a soft and illogical ideal. That's not cynical or passive, that's just how it is. You can stand on the edge of a cliff and swear to everyone that you'll fly when you leap off, but it's not the cynic or kill joy who says you're going to plummet to your death. It's just a rational person trying to save you some hurt feelings in the long run, to serve you a slice of reality as you become lost in some dreams that, while well-intentioned, don't stack up to how things really are.
    "Aaah it's better to cut your crap, delete that petition and take a hike"
    Any chance you could direct me to any post that said anything even remotely close to this, arguing that you should just give up on everything and shouldn't have even bothered in the first place? Again, I don't think you give your responders enough credit, and you even went so far as to make out that a large part of the community had a big issue with where the series is headed and its state of existence when, as you can see, the vast majority aren't bothered at all. Your response to your feedback has been to listen to the loud minority, and not the very peaceful majority that have treated you far fairer than you credit.
    Do I need to....stop? Swallow it? Cut it? No. Others need to show a bit more respect in here.....and offer something more than a suicidal destruction of someone's hard work.
    Again, taking our responses as dedicated thrashings of all you care for isn't really the full picture, or even a corner of it. You may be exaggerating points and taking too much to heart. I won't try to tell you exactly how to feel about our posts, nor will I continue to argue why I don't see things as you do, but perhaps you could imagine that you and just you alone are the only one who sees these responses as a "suicidal destruction" of your time and effort. That could in fact tell you a lot, and of how you are taking our words and warping them into what they aren't in your hyper-emotional state.

    I just don't see people telling you not to bother, to swallow your pride or cut it out, or the vast majority being disrespectful, @Gustav_Graves. I do see people trying to be honest with you about what you've presented, however, and to me honesty is more important than someone patting me on the back and agreeing with me just to placate me and mitigate my emotional reaction afterward. That's nannying and cosseting, and I don't approve. I don't think you'd want that either, for people to tell you what you want to hear regardless of how much they disagree with you, as you know how debates work and of the importance in everyone having their honest say.

    It seems we're in disagreement with the tone of the response to your letter and some of the content and members' messages, but I hope you can see the point of view from the other side for what it is too. Not a defense against your fun or efforts, but a logical and thought out response to the content of what you presented. Because sometimes being realistic isn't cynicism, and sometimes people aren't disrespecting you just because they don't agree with everything you say. These are important delineations to make.

    I'll just conclude my final thoughts with this: I don't think a letter with no substance worth arguing over or one that we all thought was pointless could've generated a full 4 pages of discussion in less than two days. More than anything, the size of discussion generated by your work should tell you that it does address important concerns worth debating, and that by presenting your thoughts you did light some fires under members that led to some interesting discourse about the series, where it's at and its future amongst us. You may not see that as a positive result, but I do.

    It's the nature of the forum environment to share perspective and debate, and while some can go too far at times in teasing, I think on the whole this thread represents another example of how the majority can argue for their side without ridiculing or bullying others who don't agree. It should be viewed as a massive positive that we can have these discussions here, and that they can involve so many contentious points of interest in relation to the franchise that we can come together to throw ideas around over. You may not see it like that now, but in fairer mood I hope you do.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 832
    Generally disagree with this, it shouldn't be a democracy. However I think that if they were somewhat more receptive to the fanbase that terrible ideas like brothergate which look much worse to outsiders than to the creative folks could be avoided.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ottofuse8 wrote: »
    Generally disagree with this, it shouldn't be a democracy. However I think that if they were somewhat more receptive to the fanbase that terrible ideas like brothergate which look much worse to outsiders could be avoided.
    Honestly they shouldn't have needed the fanbase to tell them that.
  • Posts: 4,030
    They'll do whatever they want as long as they are pulling in big audiences.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    While you can't ignore fans.. You also mustn't adhere to them.. Fans can't hardly agree on anything.. This forum is a prime example of that lol.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 19,339
    HASEROT wrote: »
    While you can't ignore fans.. You also mustn't adhere to them.. Fans can't hardly agree on anything.. This forum is a prime example of that lol.

    Exactly...members rankings show that big time..i'm one of the worst, putting the popular TLD as my bottom film #24 :))
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 11,119
    HASEROT wrote: »
    While you can't ignore fans.. You also mustn't adhere to them.. Fans can't hardly agree on anything.. This forum is a prime example of that lol.

    That's not true. Bond fans in here agreed on this. More than 100 fans agreed on this, agreed on this outcome. That gives us a better understanding how the average fan in here things:

    TzcRFqz.jpg

    Why Always so negative. There's a lot that fans have in common. Why not trying to find the things fans agree on....
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Because which fans are you talking to? And how many? How long would it take to pass a story around to everyone, get their approval, incorporate their changes.. It would be a disaster and you'd be left with an unmittigated mess...

    There is an old addage, it goes something along the lines "too many cooks in the kitchen." ... From someone who has worked in film to someone who hasn't, trust me.. It wouldn't work.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,291
    Eon have to be single minded sometimes they get it right sometimes they don't
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Exactly.. Its their rollercoaster, we are just along for the ride
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,340
    Why Always so negative. There's a lot that fans have in common. Why not trying to find the things fans agree on....

    You've been pretty negative on the Brosnan era without batting an eye yet when people are critical of things in the Craig era it's EVERYONE'S BEING NEGATIVE!
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,721
    Well @Gustav_Graves you have unified this forum in one way - against your petition.

    But I think there is something to be said for the earlier suggestion of simply staying away from threads that irritate, annoy or upset you. I know I do - and it makes life much simpler.

    The other thing that sprung to mind is the perception that everyone is hysterically despondent about Bond's future and lack of news is driving the franchise off a cliff. But this is coloured by being on this forum and in specific threads. There is a reason that B25, SP and SF threads get so much traffic.

    But it's important to remember that people like embellishing, venting and delivering hyperbole - as you yourself said - it sometimes makes for funny or enjoyable reading.
    It also makes up online people's personalities. I love TLD but I always have a giggle when Kara Milovy turns up knowing how much she is loathed by @barryt007 - I enjoy rewatching SF but can always hear @noSolaceleft ranting about every crumbling plot point. Any time I watch QoS I enjoy it more and that's because of the impassioned, articulate diatribes of @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 . Every time Tanner shows up I think of the VR headset image on this board and @TheWizardOfIce frothing at the mouth with homicidal rage. And you're part of that community @Gustav_Graves - so enjoy it, have a giggle and I wouldn't take everything as seriously as people sometimes write down. And I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over it.

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,291
    Bond has been around for 55 years cinematically, there really is nothing to worry about Eon know what they are doing I expect Bond 25 to be one of the other types of Bond film
  • mattjoesmattjoes DAY OF THE BROSNAN
    Posts: 6,933
    The issue here seems to be negativity. My impression is the Bond 25 thread, in particular, definitely focuses more on what doesn't work that on what does work, which is why it comes across as negative in tone. I think that has to do with a) the fact this a fan forum and obsessive analysis breeds heightened emotions, and b) the fact that, from the point of view of generating interesting discussions, it's easier and more engaging to talk about things generally perceived to be negative, which are more likely to elicit strong, detailed responses, than things generally perceived to be positive, which are more likely to elicit briefer answers in the vein of "I agree."

    I'm sure this is the case on most fan communities. I'd like things to be a bit more positive myself, in terms of having us not only state what we didn't like about the latest films, but what we did like, because even in something as criticized as Spectre there are good things. But even if that isn't the case, when the issues with the films are brought up in conversation, I see plenty of thoughtful opinions being thrown around.

    Personally, while I can talk negatively at times, that's what happens when I'm in an analytical state of mind, in the specific context of this forum, where such things are encouraged. Find me outside of it --even watching the film itself, which is definitely not the same as thinking about it-- and even if it's not my favorite, I'll most likely talk about it in a positive mindset, since I am so fond of the Bond franchise and the Bond essence, the DNA, can be found to some degree in every single film. I'm sure that is not case with everyone, but I do suspect plenty of us are the same way. It wouldn't do any harm for us all to keep that in mind when posting, but if even if we don't, it's probably still true and at any rate, discussions here are generally civilized and thorough.

    The Bond franchise today is just fine, not in great shape necessarily, but certainly in good shape. No matter what has gone wrong, I get the feeling the filmmakers are trying to do the best they can with it; they don't come across as being asleep at the wheel. In fact, I greatly enjoyed Spectre, shortcomings and all. Would I like the films to be released more often? Sure. Would I appreciate a change of tone? Certainly (already started with Spectre, anyway). Would I like ideas like the foster brother reveal to be absent from future films? Indubitably. But things are fine. Personally, I don't want or need to contribute to the making of future films, not as a fan, anyway.

    But thanks for writing and sharing that letter, no doubt a sign of passion, which is always welcome!
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Nicholas Cage for Bond.
  • mattjoesmattjoes DAY OF THE BROSNAN
    Posts: 6,933
    Nicholas Cage for Bond.

    I'd be there opening night, in the front row. I couldn't say it would be good, but I'd have to see that!
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Nicholas Cage for Bond.

    I'd be there opening night, in the front row. I couldn't say it would be good, but I'd have to see that!

    M “Bond you’re out of control!”

    Bond “A-B-C-D-E..FG..AHHHH!!!”
  • mattjoes wrote: »
    The issue here seems to be negativity. My impression is the Bond 25 thread, in particular, definitely focuses more on what doesn't work that on what does work, which is why it comes across as negative in tone. I think that has to do with a) the fact this a fan forum and obsessive analysis breeds heightened emotions, and b) the fact that, from the point of view of generating interesting discussions, it's easier and more engaging to talk about things generally perceived to be negative, which are more likely to elicit strong, detailed responses, than things generally perceived to be positive, which are more likely to elicit briefer answers in the vein of "I agree."

    I'm sure this is the case on most fan communities. I'd like things to be a bit more positive myself, in terms of having us not only state what we didn't like about the latest films, but what we did like, because even in something as criticized as Spectre there are good things. But even if that isn't the case, when the issues with the films are brought up in conversation, I see plenty of thoughtful opinions being thrown around.

    Personally, while I can talk negatively at times, that's what happens when I'm in an analytical state of mind, in the specific context of this forum, where such things are encouraged. Find me outside of it --even watching the film itself, which is definitely not the same as thinking about it-- and even if it's not my favorite, I'll most likely talk about it in a positive mindset, since I am so fond of the Bond franchise and the Bond essence, the DNA, can be found to some degree in every single film. I'm sure that is not case with everyone, but I do suspect plenty of us are the same way. It wouldn't do any harm for us all to keep that in mind when posting, but if even if we don't, it's probably still true and at any rate, discussions here are generally civilized and thorough.

    The Bond franchise today is just fine, not in great shape necessarily, but certainly in good shape. No matter what has gone wrong, I get the feeling the filmmakers are trying to do the best they can with it; they don't come across as being asleep at the wheel. In fact, I greatly enjoyed Spectre, shortcomings and all. Would I like the films to be released more often? Sure. Would I appreciate a change of tone? Certainly (already started with Spectre, anyway). Would I like ideas like the foster brother reveal to be absent from future films? Indubitably. But things are fine. Personally, I don't want or need to contribute to the making of future films, not as a fan, anyway.

    But thanks for writing and sharing that letter, no doubt a sign of passion, which is always welcome!

    Thanks @mattjoes . You're striking the perfect tone here. A tone I would like to hear a bit more often.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,291
    Cage Rage would be a great Bond

    tumblr_lzm212QQ7n1r4etbjo1_500.gif
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    Cage Rage would be a great Bond

    tumblr_lzm212QQ7n1r4etbjo1_500.gif

    Better than the Brosnan pain face?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Cage Rage would be a great Bond

    tumblr_lzm212QQ7n1r4etbjo1_500.gif
    'The Cage' would have been superb as a villain in a Tarantino Bond film. Face Off gave us an indication of what was possible.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 24,291
    I have alot of Nic Cages movies he is always good value even when he is terrible
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Few people can be so good at being terrible next to Cage, that much is true.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I'd like to see Nicholas Cage star in a biopic of @Gustav.

    Nic dialling the melodramatic histrionics up to 11 would be a fabulous ham fest even by Cage standards.
  • mattjoesmattjoes DAY OF THE BROSNAN
    Posts: 6,933
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Nicholas Cage for Bond.

    I'd be there opening night, in the front row. I couldn't say it would be good, but I'd have to see that!

    M “Bond you’re out of control!”

    Bond “A-B-C-D-E..FG..AHHHH!!!”

    James Bond - 007 status granted
    "I'm an agent, I'm an agent, I'm an agent, I'm agent!!!!!!1111"
  • Posts: 533
    I don't think it's a good idea for moviemakers to leave the plots of future movies in the hands of fans. No.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The whole scheme is wacky in it's approach, and not even a good idea, but I'm all for supporting a man with conviction.

    Intriguing logic.

    By the same rationale I guess you'd vote for Hitler then?
This discussion has been closed.