The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

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  • edited June 2017 Posts: 12,837
    Shardlake wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Agreed...I cant for the life of me understand why the PM wont have a debate with Corbyn.
    She will never have an easier opponent to beat.
    May has no natural humanity, she looks awkward and robotic, the reason she won't debate Corbyn is it will amplify this even more.

    Things are very different from a month a go, you might be in for a hell of a shock, it's certainly not going to the be the Tory landslide utopia some of you have been dreaming about.

    May has been absolutely shocking during this campaign, strong and stable, more like dithering and unable.

    Maybe you have been reading too much right wing propaganda, May can't debate herself out of a paper bag on the strength of her performance of late, that is why she won't debate Corbyn and sent her surrogate Rudd along.

    Agree with all of this but unfortunately I think the Conservatives will probably still take it. Just look at Question Time from last night; nobody would shut up about f***ing Trident (one guy even got applause for bringing it up again saying I'd rather have it and not use it when Corbyn had just said that they had no plans on getting rid of it) even though he'd made it clear that they weren't getting rid of it, but would rather focus on the here and now, working towards global disarmment, than think about hypothetical scenarios where he might have to use it. For whatever reason people seem keen to just ignore the points he's making because it doesn't fit the image of him that they have in their heads. Britain doesn't deserve someone like Corbyn in power and as much as I hope I'm wrong, I think that's gonna be evident on June 9th.
  • Posts: 19,339
    People don't deserve Corbyn ??!!

    The guy is a weak,union loving leftie !
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    barryt007 wrote: »
    People don't deserve Corbyn ??!!

    The guy is a weak,union loving leftie !

    What about Diane Abbot as Home Secretary?! She'd be off with a migraine the first time she was asked to deal with a terrorist incident.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Every party has a weak link,but at least she wouldn't be PM like Corbyn.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Shardlake wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Agreed...I cant for the life of me understand why the PM wont have a debate with Corbyn.
    She will never have an easier opponent to beat.
    May has no natural humanity, she looks awkward and robotic, the reason she won't debate Corbyn is it will amplify this even more.

    Things are very different from a month a go, you might be in for a hell of a shock, it's certainly not going to the be the Tory landslide utopia some of you have been dreaming about.

    May has been absolutely shocking during this campaign, strong and stable, more like dithering and unable.

    Maybe you have been reading too much right wing propaganda, May can't debate herself out of a paper bag on the strength of her performance of late, that is why she won't debate Corbyn and sent her surrogate Rudd along.

    Agree with all of this but unfortunately I think the Conservatives will probably still take it. Just look at Question Time from last night; nobody would shut up about f***ing Trident (one guy even got applause for bringing it up again saying I'd rather have it and not use it when Corbyn had just said that they had no plans on getting rid of it) even though he'd made it clear that they weren't getting rid of it, but would rather focus on the here and now, working towards global disarmment, than think about hypothetical scenarios where he might have to use it. For whatever reason people seem keen to just ignore the points he's making because it doesn't fit the image of him that they have in their heads. Britain doesn't deserve someone like Corbyn in power and as much as I hope I'm wrong, I think that's gonna be evident on June 9th.

    I used to have a low opinion of Corbyn but he's grown on me.

    Equally, I thought May was better than she actually is. She appears incapable of thinking or speaking on her feet.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    There's something very manufactured about May. Something inauthentic and opportunistic. A bit of Hillary in her I dare say.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Agreed...I cant for the life of me understand why the PM wont have a debate with Corbyn.
    She will never have an easier opponent to beat.
    May has no natural humanity, she looks awkward and robotic, the reason she won't debate Corbyn is it will amplify this even more.

    Things are very different from a month a go, you might be in for a hell of a shock, it's certainly not going to the be the Tory landslide utopia some of you have been dreaming about.

    May has been absolutely shocking during this campaign, strong and stable, more like dithering and unable.

    Maybe you have been reading too much right wing propaganda, May can't debate herself out of a paper bag on the strength of her performance of late, that is why she won't debate Corbyn and sent her surrogate Rudd along.

    Agree with all of this but unfortunately I think the Conservatives will probably still take it. Just look at Question Time from last night; nobody would shut up about f***ing Trident (one guy even got applause for bringing it up again saying I'd rather have it and not use it when Corbyn had just said that they had no plans on getting rid of it) even though he'd made it clear that they weren't getting rid of it, but would rather focus on the here and now, working towards global disarmment, than think about hypothetical scenarios where he might have to use it. For whatever reason people seem keen to just ignore the points he's making because it doesn't fit the image of him that they have in their heads. Britain doesn't deserve someone like Corbyn in power and as much as I hope I'm wrong, I think that's gonna be evident on June 9th.

    I used to have a low opinion of Corbyn but he's grown on me.

    Equally, I thought May was better than she actually is. She appears incapable of thinking or speaking on her feet.

    Agree entirely.

    At least Corbyn is a man who stands by his principles - even if said principles are Communism and consorting with terrorists. I wouldn't go as far to say I admire him (as I find his position on the IRA sickening) like I did Tony Benn but at least he's not one of the identikit political class spouting the same scripted drivel.

    May has shown herself to be as clueless as village idiot Cameron but at least he had the bottle to turn up to the debate when similarly shamed into it and not just mug everyone off and saying 'Don't care what you all think. I'm not coming.' Shame none of the TV companies would have the bottle to go with the tub of lard technique to make her look ridiculous.

    I think she's called this election because she thinks she can get over the line due to Corbyn's ineptitude and she knows against anyone half decent she'd be in real trouble so can't leave it another couple of years. She's making a big enough meal of it as it is against the most feeble Labour Party since the 70s.

    For a brief second I thought she might be another Maggie but in the words of Malcolm Tucker she's 'not even Manchester's best Mrs Thatcher tribute act.'

  • Posts: 11,425
    Still think she will win a reasonable majority sadly.

    I would love to see her face as she leaves Downing Street on 11th June after losing the election. She'd be one of the shortest lived PMs ever I think.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Well after the PM's disastrous decision re the election,i just hope she can still proceed with a hard Brexit rather than a soft one.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    The irony is in the end the EU itself will see to a hard Brexit with their complete inability to negotiate. They are only good at dictating.
    Yawn. Regardless of what one thinks of the EU, it should be obvious to everyone that a club or association cannot give more benefits to someone leaving it than to those staying, or even only more than those granted previous non-member partners. Therefore, the notion of the UK keeping the same benefits while paying less than or not having to fulfill the same preconditions as EEA members and Switzerland is simply delusional. There will be no access to the single market without freedom of movement (including for Polish plumbers), nor without paying as much per capita as, say, Norway. And that's only about a third less than now, even BEFORE the Thatcher refund. But with no say.

    The EU can't be blamed for Farage and Johnson taking the population to the cleaners on this issue. That has nothing to do with "dictating" but is simple common sense.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The EU needs the UK as much as the UK needs Europe as a partner. But the EU acts like it's only the UK that needs the EU.

    It's about accepting the UK decision with grace.

    Many in Brussels still want to make a warning example with the UK so no other country dare even try to do a referendum.

    By the way, what do you think would the Germans vote?

    If the people could decide, the EU would be history within one year. And it should. Because it has become an autocratic monster that is dictated by high finance corporations and especially the finance sector via their puppets in Brussels.

    And no, I'm not a far right voter. I am social liberal and pretty much left of the center even with most topics, but I hate autocracy, neo-liberalism and centralisationed government structures.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    The EU needs the UK as much as the UK needs Europe as a partner. But the EU acts like it's only the UK that needs the EU.
    As for the latter sentence, no, it doesn't. It's just that it cannot grant special privileges for leaving, as opposed to remaining. And literally no remaining EU member would agree to something like that, therefore the argument is moot.
    It's about accepting the UK decision with grace.
    We do, though we don't like it in spite of those who keep saying the UK has been enjoying a semi-free ride ("I want my money back!") for far too long. But that doesn't mean we are going to ultimately finance the benefits that the UK keeps deriving while not taking part itself.
    Many in Brussels still want to make a warning example with the UK so no other country dare even try to do a referendum.
    That's what you say. I don't. The final agreement will be sort of along the lines of Norway and Switzerland, if the UK agrees to freedom of movement like they do. Do you as a Swiss feel humiliated?
    By the way, what do you think would the Germans vote?
    We don't have referendums on a federal level, and I wholeheartedly endorse this. But I'm pretty sure that at least 80 per cent (that's everyone minus the lunatic right and left fringe) would be for remaining.
    If the people could decide, the EU would be history within one year. And it should. Because it has become an autocratic monster that is dictated by high finance corporations and especially the finance sector via their puppets in Brussels.
    Bullshit.

    The bureaucratic monster has 33,000 employees, fewer than the city governments of the likes of Manchester or Hamburg (though better paid, but then they should be - they govern 500 million people somehow). Also, in many regards they replace national public servants, whatever you think of centralisation. Actually, I think it's a rather streamlined system, hindered only by too much requirement of representing every member state.

    And with that the-banksters-run-everything argument, you'll probably be saying the same about national politicians, so where's the difference? Not that I subscribe to that tin-foil hat hypothesis either way.

    The perceived deficits in democracy are due to the fact that the cases where there is a pure majority decision are limited - because every member state might find a reason to object to being outvoted. And those people complaining the most about a lack of democracy are usually the same that always protest that member states cannot do what they want. The EU is as democratic as the U.S. system where Rhode Island has as many senators as California, but I, for one, am ready to do away with the equality of member states in that regard, if that is your dream.

    Oh, and by the way, when you ask people what they dislike about the EU, hardly anyone can come up with anything worse than "They are trying to prescribe the curvature of cucumbers." Which, by the way, is a thing of the past.
    And no, I'm not a far right voter. I am social liberal and pretty much left of the center even with most topics, but I hate autocracy, neo-liberalism and centralisationed government structures.
    It's better than any alternative. A system that is not liberal, both socially and economically, cannot remain a democracy for long in my view. I'm convinced that the EU is the best thing that happened to Europe and world peace, and I'm all for the United States of Europe to happen today rather than tomorrow while being aware that this is a pipe dream for now. Nationalists (and I might add religious radicals, but that's not a real problem within Europe) are the main obstacle to a future without wars.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    If they can still afford it. [SCNR]
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    Including the Swiss?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    haha...good one!

    I think the Brits and the Swiss will have a beautiful friendship.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    Good luck. Don't get me wrong - I don't have any problem whatsoever with the Brits (just like the Swiss) doing well without the EU, just like I wish only the best for the U.S: in spite of them having elected a complete moron for president, simply because countries that are doing well do not normally cause problems. It's just that I don't expect either to happen.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Britain is f******. And we've done it to ourselves.

    Sorry but forget about loser ISIS, Brexit is clearly the biggest crisis facing the UK and it's 100% self inflicted.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,676
    I have a problem pinpointing your position, @BondJasonBond, but for the good news, I'm glad it isn't right-wing nationalist-populist, or so you claim. By rehashing "common wisdom" opinions about the EU you just seem to be promoting their position.

    As for Britain, if you dislike both May and Corbyn (both probably warranted), whom would you support? It doesn't sound like you'd be a happy Lib-Dem (or SNP, or DUP) supporter either. Apart from being Swiss anyway.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
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  • Posts: 12,506
    If the UK is made an example of by as some would say punished? Baring in mind we were the 2nd largest contributors to the EU project? It could also backfire on them as they are only there by the grace of the public around the continent.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I have a feeling there will be an attempt to push for a new referendum down the road. Almost 13m registered voters didn't show up in 2016, and with the new found youth (possibly liberal and remainer) mobilization, there will probably be an attempt to go for it again in the future.

    No doubt the EU would like Britain to reconsider (they've pretty much said as much) and with their new found solidarity (even if possibly skin deep), it will be difficult for Britain to extract meaningful concessions.

    I hope it doesn't happen, but have a feeling it will.

    Macron was a surprise to me. I didn't think Le Pen would win, but I didn't think he would show up out of nowhere. I thought Fillon had a shot initially, until his troubles overwhelmed him. That's a country where the voters went with the media flow, and I didn't think they would. The alternative was perhaps just too scary.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 5,801
    Speaking of which, when Brexit will be in full swing (not that I said when, not if. That boat has pretty much sailed away), what of Gibraltar ? And while we're at it, what about Jersey and Guernesey ? I'd be surprised if this point is not discussed during the negotiations.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    bondjames wrote: »
    I have a feeling there will be an attempt to push for a new referendum down the road. Almost 13m registered voters didn't show up in 2016, and with the new found youth (possibly liberal and remainer) mobilization, there will probably be an attempt to go for it again in the future.

    It's possible, but personally I doubt anything would come of it. IMHO any 'vote until you reach the 'correct' verdict' would make a mockery of the whole system and throw the whole country into even more chaos. Many who wanted to remain should have got up off their arses and voted first time around. The UK voted out - end of. Oh, but it was by such a slim majority I hear the cry. It doesn't matter, the vote returned was to leave. Had the country voted to remain by the same margin, and 'leavers' continued to rattle the pots and pans, the remainers would say exactly the same thing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    stag wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I have a feeling there will be an attempt to push for a new referendum down the road. Almost 13m registered voters didn't show up in 2016, and with the new found youth (possibly liberal and remainer) mobilization, there will probably be an attempt to go for it again in the future.

    It's possible, but personally I doubt anything would come of it. IMHO any 'vote until you reach the 'correct' verdict' would make a mockery of the whole system and throw the whole country into even more chaos. Many who wanted to remain should have got up off their arses and voted first time around. The UK voted out - end of. Oh, but it was by such a slim majority I hear the cry. It doesn't matter, the vote returned was to leave. Had the country voted to remain by the same margin, and 'leavers' continued to rattle the pots and pans, the remainers would say exactly the same thing.
    I completely agree with you that the results of a democratic vote should be respected. Having said that, I do get the feeling that the mood of the country has shifted since then, and if the vote were held now the results could be quite different as the consequences have been thought through more than they were in 2016.

    As this drags out, and after the fiasco of a few days ago, there is a distinct possibility that something could happen. This feels like a divorce that some may be having second thoughts about, as the settlement likely won't be as beneficial as initially thought.

    Damn shame the EU won't budge on its immigration 'pillar'.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,020
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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Again, I agree with you @BondJasonBond006. I am a fan of the concept of a united Europe, but am a big believer that the EU should be fundamentally reformed to address new realities, immigration from war torn countries and from within, and the increased membership.

    My point is more that the mood has probably shifted in the UK since the vote. Unlike a normal referendum election where one gets the benefit of the result implemented right away, this divorce is going to take some time and be quite messy. By the time it's implemented the majority of the country may feel quite differently.

    It's a strange vote in that respect, since the separation and all of its problems come a long time after the actual vote.
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