The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    barryt007 wrote: »
    We are an island,between USA and Europe....we are just ourselves.

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited April 2017 Posts: 5,080
    But we are still European.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    We are an island,between USA and Europe....we are just ourselves.


    Oh very good Dr...'we are a rock,we are an island !"

    Lovely....

  • Posts: 5,772
    But in history, yes. I mean, how can a country that was settled by Italians, Germans and French (with a smattering of Scandinavian) be anything but European ? How can a country that chose its kings from France (twice), Holland and Germany be anything but European ? How can a country that once held large tracts of land in France (and still has a little part of Spain) be anything but European ?
  • Posts: 19,339
    Quite easily actually ..
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Gerard wrote: »
    But in history, yes. I mean, how can a country that was settled by Italians, Germans and French (with a smattering of Scandinavian) be anything but European ? How can a country that chose its kings from France (twice), Holland and Germany be anything but European ? How can a country that once held large tracts of land in France (and still has a little part of Spain) be anything but European ?

    Fake news?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    Well I don't consider myself European either. I don't even consider myself Belgian or Flemish. Patriotism means nothing to me. Nor does cultural pride. I don't have a favourite soccer / football team. And I'm never going to wave any flags.

    Cultural, religious, political, national, ... pride is what's wrong with this world. It's funny how people openly "hate" Muslims and others for being so damn stubborn, while displaying the same stubbornness and intransigence, albeit in a different way. A people that conservatively clings to an old structure and develops a superiority complex within it, is destined to fail. The Romans have shown that.

    My being Belgian / European is a geographical detail at best. I have taken control of my own life, rejected the religious dogma's of many of my fellow countrymen and refused to adopt the habits I disagree with. I have learned English, though nowhere in "my country" is it spoken. I just love English and the people who speak it. I have learned more than one system of measurement, though technically I only need the metric system. For practical reasons, I must obey the law. Many laws I disagree with but I'm not an anarchist. I vote, because I have to, but I loath the mess that is regional, national and European politics. As with everything else, there are good things to it and bad.

    I don't take orders from tradition, the Church or the Belgian flag. Chauvinism is lost on me.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,727
    The UK is on the periphery of Europe. Therefore different priorities exist. That is all.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Breaking up the nation states sounds like a grand idea, but the alternative that presents itself, global governance, seems much, much worse.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,655
    In my view, Brexit for a while was the stupidest decision in a free election or referendum since 30 January 1933. Fortunately for the UK, there was the 8th of November 2016 in the States, so you're only the second-dumbest after all.

    Sorry guys, can't help it. Good luck, but also good riddance.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Gerard wrote: »
    But in history, yes. I mean, how can a country that was settled by Italians, Germans and French (with a smattering of Scandinavian) be anything but European ? How can a country that chose its kings from France (twice), Holland and Germany be anything but European ? How can a country that once held large tracts of land in France (and still has a little part of Spain) be anything but European ?

    Fake news?
    Good one!!!

    :))
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Sorry guys, can't help it. Good luck, but also good riddance.
    The feeling is mutual!

  • edited April 2017 Posts: 19,339
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    In my view, Brexit for a while was the stupidest decision in a free election or referendum since 30 January 1933. Fortunately for the UK, there was the 8th of November 2016 in the States, so you're only the second-dumbest after all.

    Sorry guys, can't help it. Good luck, but also good riddance.

    Keep your hand in your pocket for your yearly fees and when Greece,Italy or those lovely new countries next to the arab world that will be flooding in need you...enjoy !
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Keep your hand in your pocket for your yearly fees and when Greece,Italy or those lovely new countries next to the arab world that will be flooding in need you...enjoy !

    That I certainly agree with. Some change is needed, and fast!

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,655
    Keep your hand in your pocket for your yearly fees and when Greece,Italy or those lovely new countries next to the arab world that will be flooding in need you...enjoy !
    With Erdogan taking Turkey progressively into Fascism, I certainly don't expect any new countries next to the Arab world flooding in. Apart from the fact that the UK never joined Schengen but kept its own border controls all the way, so it has always been their own decision to let in people from outside (i.e. non-EU). No Brexit necessary to get rid of any non-EU citizens at all. Sorry you don't like Polish plumbers. We do.

    I'm just amazed how the Brits expect to have more advantages from being outside the EU than remaining inside. It's an absolute no-brainer that - at best - the Brits won't be treated any better than the Norwegians (and the rest of the EEA) and the Swiss. Which means that they have to allow freedom of goods, workers, services and capital with the single market and pay certain sums to have that advantage. They just no longer have the power to make the rules. Wonder how that will work out.

    If you terminate your membership in a golf club you'll have to stop using the greens. Unless you pay a premium. That's what's going to happen.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    There is the Continent of Europe and if you're in it you must be incontinent ! :D
  • Posts: 233
    Brexit is the biggest hit to Britain's status on the world stage since the Suez crisis. It's an act of cultural and economic suicide that is only going to make us poorer and nastier in the short and the long term. Years of progress and cooperation in science, defence, arts, and culture had been thrown down the drain for nothing but vacuous notions of "taking back control". We've committed ourselves to economic and political isolation in a world where unity is needed more than ever. Britain used to lead the world, and now we've voted to drift ourselves into the periphery. Cheers everyone.

    Unfortunately, the EU was made a scapegoat for decades of poor government and economic mismanagement by our own parliament. At least now they'll have to find someone else to blame for their own incompetence.

    I love being both British and European, but travelling to the continent these days it's difficult not to feel ashamed. Luckily I'm entitled to dual Irish nationality thanks to my grandmother, so I'll still enjoy the benefits of EU citizenship. I don't intend to be drawn into a debate; I come here to read about Bond films, and anyway, it's doesn't look like there's any going back on Brexit now. It just makes me sad to see anyone celebrating our country's retreat into irrelevance.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Bloody hell it is the Zombie Apocalypse ! :))
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Unfortunately, the EU was made a scapegoat for decades of poor government and economic mismanagement by our own parliament. At least now they'll have to find someone else to blame for their own incompetence.

    I do agree with you on this point. However, the all encompassing pessimism of the remoaners does wear thin when the doomsday scenario keeps being played on a loop.
    You could be right of course, however I have faith enough in my country to allow me to look towards a future where the UK will be much better off in every respect.



  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Just a couple of general questions for everyone. Seeing as the UK is the second largest contributor to the EU budget, and one fifth of all EU VAT contributions comes from UK taxpayers, how will the EU fill this financial chasm? Any monies from the 'divorce' settlement could only be a stop gap measure? Will the EU extend the begging bowl to its poorer members, or will it expect the richer states to take up the slack, or will it be a combination of both? How will members states who are directly affected by the shortfall and who are expected to fill that gap react to any such dictates?

    Much is being made of the UKs access to the single market. Of course this is an important issue, but what of the EUs access to the UK market? If the EU wishes us to pay to access the single market, then is it not only correct that they pay to access ours?


  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The EU is a crumbling mess, a 50's solution.
    To a Modern problem. After all if the EU is so good for the people of Europe. Why is there such large support in so many countries to leave. ?
    Surely if it was this land of milk and honey, the remoaners make out, no one would want to leave !
    I think it's the remoaners who have the rose tinted glasses on, seeing some make believe utopia.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,655
    stag wrote: »
    Just a couple of general questions for everyone. Seeing as the UK is the second largest contributor to the EU budget, and one fifth of all EU VAT contributions comes from UK taxpayers, how will the EU fill this financial chasm? Any monies from the 'divorce' settlement could only be a stop gap measure? Will the EU extend the begging bowl to its poorer members, or will it expect the richer states to take up the slack, or will it be a combination of both? How will members states who are directly affected by the shortfall and who are expected to fill that gap react to any such dictates?
    The UK pays about GBP 6.5m annually net(!) to the EU. Let's face it, that's not that much these days. While the UK is the second-biggest net payer among the member states, it is only No. 8 per capita. That gap is what worries me the least in the entire matter.

    Either way, in a union of richer and poorer nations it is inevitable that the richer nations pay part of the way for the others. And it was mostly the UK, as Washington's most loyal poodle, that pushed the most for rapidly enlarging the EU in the eastern direction, in spite of the dismal state of countries like Romania and Bulgaria.

    It's all a question of what the advantages are on the other side of the equation. For Germany, it's clear that EU membership is a big gain because our industry is making loads of money from the single market, with the resulting tax generation exceeding the net payments to the union. I'm sure the same applies to the UK once one takes a closer look.

    My personal net gain is to live in a more or less unified Europe, a continent that has been warring for seemingly forever until someone had the bright idea to form what turned into the EU. I'm all for open borders internally and for a single currency, its problems notwithstanding. Unified Europe is the best thing that happened to the world ever, period.
    Much is being made of the UKs access to the single market. Of course this is an important issue, but what of the EUs access to the UK market? If the EU wishes us to pay to access the single market, then is it not only correct that they pay to access ours?
    But they will. It's not as if we don't trade with the US or China. The single market just makes things a whole lot simpler by doing away with customs and tariffs and all that nonsense that nobody would need in the future, were it not for a small majority of British voters that wants to sacrifice those advantages for being able to kick out foreigners and pretend they still owned an empire.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Unified Europe is the best thing that happened to the world ever, period.

    Jesus. Just off the top of my head I think discovering fire, inventing language, the wheel, the written word, the printing press, taming electricity and flight might all beg to differ.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    @TheWizardOfIce

    How about discovering we don't need a god to explain the universe? ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce

    How about discovering we don't need a god to explain the universe? ;-)

    In fairness to @j_w_pepper's risible comment above I would say that the EU has made a more valuable contribution to mankind than our ancestors coming up with some infantile fairy tales to make sense of phenomena they didn't have the tools to explain. Although it's not so much their fault as they had no other explanations available to them. The real blame lies with people who have full access to scientific facts still adhering to this drivel.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited April 2017 Posts: 1,053
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The single market just makes things a whole lot simpler by doing away with customs and tariffs and all that nonsense that nobody would need in the future, were it not for a small majority of British voters that wants to sacrifice those advantages for being able to kick out foreigners and pretend they still owned an empire.

    Unfortunately, that's where you tripped yourself up. Thinking you can offer an explanation as to why I, and others, voted out.



  • edited April 2017 Posts: 19,339
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The single market just makes things a whole lot simpler by doing away with customs and tariffs and all that nonsense that nobody would need in the future, were it not for a small majority of British voters that wants to sacrifice those advantages for being able to kick out foreigners and pretend they still owned an empire.




    Thats below the belt...where are you from by the way ? I would say Germany maybe ?

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    It's all a question of what the advantages are on the other side of the equation. For Germany, it's clear that EU membership is a big gain because our industry is making loads of money from the single market
    Indeed. The economic benefits for Germany to date have been quite clear for everyone to see. I believe that the costs however, are only about to begin to be apparent.
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    My personal net gain is to live in a more or less unified Europe, a continent that has been warring for seemingly forever until someone had the bright idea to form what turned into the EU.
    In a world of nuclear weapons, there is perhaps another natural deterrent to this kind of historic savage behaviour.
    stag wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The single market just makes things a whole lot simpler by doing away with customs and tariffs and all that nonsense that nobody would need in the future, were it not for a small majority of British voters that wants to sacrifice those advantages for being able to kick out foreigners and pretend they still owned an empire.

    Unfortunately, that's where you tripped yourself up. Thinking you can offer an explanation as to why I, and others, voted out.
    The losing side made the same mistake on the other side of the pond. It's simpler (and perhaps more self serving rather than merely misguided) to ignore the fundamental economic drivers of these landmark decisions and focus more on the racial elements.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    Guys, I address you now, with a few questions, in a completely friendly neutrality ;-). I'm just trying to understand things and your perspective is very valuable to me. Here goes:

    1) How realistic is it, according to you, that Scotland will soon become independent and re-join the EU?

    2) If that happens, how will this damage--if at all--England?

    3) What do you predict will Wales do?

    You see, I had a chat the day before yesterday in a Dutch bar of all places with two former RAF pilots. We were all visiting the Netherlands as tourists and joined a few drinks in the evening. Naturally, BREXIT was the preferred topic of conversation, for them even more so than for me and my friends to be fair. They were very much pro-BREXIT "in principle", and had in fact voted "out", but one called Nigel Farage "a ******* wanker" and the other expressed some concern over the future of the UK given how intensely the Scottish independence is being prepared. This Englishman said he'd rather not see Scotland leave. When I asked him why, I must admit that his responses were a bit muddled, no doubt due to the heavy drinking to which most there present had committed...

    (Fun fact, when asking why they had joined "the army", both guys looked at me like I was a lower life form. The RAF isn't "the army". A valuable lesson learned. ;-))
  • edited April 2017 Posts: 19,339
    1.Scotland always threaten to leave but when push comes to shove they bottle it and stay in the UK..better the devil you know .

    2.It wouldn't damage England at all.

    3.Wales will stay with England whatever happens,the same goes for Northern Ireland.

    And,DD,you are lucky you only got a dirty look from the RAF pilots,you got off lightly !!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I don't think there is the same demand in Scotland for independence this time, I honestly
    Can't see it happening. Too many obstacles in the way, they'll have to apply to join the EU
    Which can take several years, they have to adopt the Euro etc. Also England puts far more money
    Into the regions like Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland than they could ever generate themselves.
    I hope the Union holds, but if Scotland leaves, I will wish them well, and would be really upset.
This discussion has been closed.