What next for Madeleine Swann

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  • Bringing Swann back seems pointless. If she’s brought back to be killed off so Bond can avenge her, then Bond simple becomes another Jason Bourne. Bond girls may be forever, but only in the memories of Bond fans. She’s served her purpose, helping to flesh out Spectre, and a temporary love interest, but her “I’m the victim, of my father’s lifestyle” is pretty depressing. Perhaps after failing to convince Bond to leave his job as 007, she could go off to study the social habits of Sea Otters or something. Basically Bond was given new life with the Craig series, so he needs to get on with battling dragons. Whether it’s Craig or someone else, to see him still hanging onto Swann’s pinafore in the next film, seems to make him something of a gilded hero rather than a blood stained Spartan.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,067
    I think the grand development is something that motivates the final showdown with Blofeld, if Craig is back for B25.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    I'd be interested with a stand alone mission from Craig for Bond 25.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,067
    I think Madeleine needs to fit into the Bond universe more tightly in Bond 25: she could be Mathis' goddaughter.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,677
    echo wrote: »
    I think Madeleine needs to fit into the Bond universe more tightly in Bond 25: she could be Mathis' goddaughter.

    Or the long lost sister of Valenka from CR.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,067
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think Madeleine needs to fit into the Bond universe more tightly in Bond 25: she could be Mathis' goddaughter.

    Or the long lost sister of Valenka from CR.

    Yes! And that would give her even more daddy issues since he killed Valenka.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,677
    echo wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think Madeleine needs to fit into the Bond universe more tightly in Bond 25: she could be Mathis' goddaughter.

    Or the long lost sister of Valenka from CR.

    Yes! And that would give her even more daddy issues since he killed Valenka.

    Even more twists will surely arise once they find out Valenka actually meant to poison the other players, not Bond, and was sent back in-time by Madeleine to help Bond beat Le Chiffre in the poker game.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,677
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A PTS that opens with a shot of Madeleine's leg sticking out of a wood chipper would be lovely. It would set the tone early.

    Now we're talking!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I certainly wooden't like to see that.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I saw what you did there.
  • I've said this in another thread, but I don't really know why the narrative 'needs' Swann to return. A whole lot of Bond films have ended with him switching off the radio or hiding from his rescuers (or hanging up on Thatcher!) to sneak off with another woman.

    Generally the plots haven't asked us to think about what happened to them later - did anyone really think that Bond was leaving the service to be with Christmas Jones? Or just taking a nice lost weekend before getting back to work?

    So I think it would be fine if she was never mentioned again, and I wouldn't find it inconsistent. Or hey, stick her in the same place as Camille and use them both for cameos later - maybe as people who he can call on for favours later during a mission on their turf.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,677
    @octofinger, it's because some viewers feel that her connection is much stronger to Bond than a regular, one-and-done Bond girl. Thus, they feel she must come back in some degree, even for a break-up scene.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2017 Posts: 6,067
    He did leave the service for her.

    'Cause that always ends well. ;)
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think Madeleine needs to fit into the Bond universe more tightly in Bond 25: she could be Mathis' goddaughter.

    Or the long lost sister of Valenka from CR.

    Yes! And that would give her even more daddy issues since he killed Valenka.

    Even more twists will surely arise once they find out Valenka actually meant to poison the other players, not Bond, and was sent back in-time by Madeleine to help Bond beat Le Chiffre in the poker game.

    That would explain why Valenka never spoke...she did not want to mess up the space-time continuum.

    We've now officially put more time into thinking through SP than the screenwriters did.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It's not just about them being more connected, she's one of three (3!) women who make Bond react in the way he does. This is the first time in the entire 50 year history we've seen him stop being a 00 as well, because of this woman, and I think that part of what would be interesting about the next film is seeing Bond cope with being inevitably bored with quiet life and wanting to break away to what he knows he has to be.

    The Craig era has been all about exploring his character through an existential lens, and it's interesting to see a Bond like Craig's who is reactionary actually have to think about what he wants for once, and not for anyone else. He's so used to taking orders and serving, he's lost the ability to view things on his own terms. I think a film that explored Bond in that way would be interesting, and it could still include all the elements people expect from this take on the character.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,067
    I think that would be interesting.

    I could see a beginning to Bond 25 where M doesn't trust Bond because he quit (twice) and sends him off on an impossible mission to Japan...

    Oh, who am I kidding? They will off Madeleine.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Imagine if the film opens up with a brainwashed Bond marching into Mallory's office and nearly killing him? That'd be a hell of an opener.

    Q and Moneypenny would try to say hi, but he'd march on like a robot. A bit of Blofeld's revenge from beyond the cell bars.
  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    I think the main ideas supporting her return (apart from one) are not appealing at all. As I see it, the options are (in no particular order):
    1. No appearance on screen, written out in a throwaway line, end of.
    2. The main Bond girl again.
    3. Killed off at the beginning, tedious revenge story follows.
    4. Still with Bond, he rejoins MI6 for a mission, she leaves him.
    5. My idea: Fakes her own death or kidnap, Bond goes after Spectre, she is revealed to be a secret (still alive) baddie.
    I would favour either Idea 1 or Idea 5.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    4 is the best bet, IMO. Having Bond leave her is another option.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Having her being the big villain is viewed as better than all the rest? Yikes. I can understand not fancying other suggestions, but...
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    Having her being the big villain is viewed as better than all the rest? Yikes. I can understand not fancying other suggestions, but...
    Precisely.
  • gumboltgumbolt Now with in-office photocopier
    Posts: 153
    I have banged on quite often about my secret baddie idea and everyone seems to think it is terrible. So presumably I should submit this to EON without delay then?!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    gumbolt wrote: »
    I have banged on quite often about my secret baddie idea and everyone seems to think it is terrible. So presumably I should submit this to EON without delay then?!

    It's just that if one wants to call another suggestions tedious and predictable, one should then avoid presenting a suggestion of their own that is even more so.

    I think it's a common dilemma we're all having, wondering where the story should go next (as many routes forward have a "been there, done that" quality about them), and there is a finality about where the Craig era is heading that makes it harder to keep writing Bond into the action, especially when he's basically heading to retirement. I've long held that if a Bond actor was given an actual, tangible and conclusive ending, now was the time to experiment when this era has been able to get away with things other films couldn't or wouldn't have dared to do.

    Then the next actor could then start off as a Bond already "in it" for a few years, and the standalone missions so many crave could come back. I'll always appreciate the Craig era for saying, "stuff it" to much of a tired formula, and doing things with the character we hadn't really seen, or at least seen done with such conviction and earnestness. It's the era of experimentation, and I'd be interesting to see the "last Bond story" told with Dan's 007 that addressed and challenged fundamental ideas about the character as a dutiful protector of the realm.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2017 Posts: 6,067
    gumbolt wrote: »
    I have banged on quite often about my secret baddie idea and everyone seems to think it is terrible. So presumably I should submit this to EON without delay then?!

    LOL. That would lead to even more screen time for Madeleine, which I think most people here are against.

    I see 3. or 4. as the likely options.

    I'd prefer 4. as it would be something new. I really don't want another revenge movie, unless they go gonzo, do the beginning of the TMWTGG novel and have Bond kill someone close to him a la
    The Manchurian Candidate.

    But that would really lead to too much story, well-worn trust issues with M, and bloat, so I'd prefer her leaving him and him just getting on with the job (presumably to track down an escaped Blofeld).

    Unfortunately, the easiest story shorthand would be for Blofeld to escape and kill Madeleine (even people who don't remember SP well would get it). Therefore, 3. is most likely.

    Eon really wrote itself into a corner with SP by allowing Blofeld to be captured and Bond to quit for Madeleine. Now they will have to undo both and it's just going to take up screen time.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    echo wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think Madeleine needs to fit into the Bond universe more tightly in Bond 25: she could be Mathis' goddaughter.

    Or the long lost sister of Valenka from CR.

    Yes! And that would give her even more daddy issues since he killed Valenka.
    maxresdefault.jpg



  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    It's not just about them being more connected, she's one of three (3!) women who make Bond react in the way he does. This is the first time in the entire 50 year history we've seen him stop being a 00 as well, because of this woman, and I think that part of what would be interesting about the next film is seeing Bond cope with being inevitably bored with quiet life and wanting to break away to what he knows he has to be.

    The Craig era has been all about exploring his character through an existential lens, and it's interesting to see a Bond like Craig's who is reactionary actually have to think about what he wants for once, and not for anyone else. He's so used to taking orders and serving, he's lost the ability to view things on his own terms. I think a film that explored Bond in that way would be interesting, and it could still include all the elements people expect from this take on the character.
    We don't know for sure he stopped being a doubele o.
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    echo wrote: »
    I think that would be interesting.

    I could see a beginning to Bond 25 where M doesn't trust Bond because he quit (twice) and sends him off on an impossible mission to Japan...

    Oh, who am I kidding? They will off Madeleine.
    We still don't know if he quit or just took some long overdue holiday
  • It's just not obvious to me that he's quit the service.

    In CR, Bond and Vesper literally plan it out, 'traveling around until they run out of money' or some such. And Bond types a resignation letter.

    In SP, Bond just walks toward Madeline on the bridge, and we cut to a shot of them in his car - that's it. It's symbolic of him leaving for some viewers, sure, but it's far from explicit. For all we know he's texted M and said, "gone for a week's holiday in the Cotswolds, see you Monday."

    Anyway, from the writer's point of view, there's no need to work from the premise that Bond has left the service or that Madeline is singular to him. Those things aren't really in the narrative of SP and don't need addressing in the future for the sake of coherence.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Can t they kill Bond in the next one, and have Madeleine avenge him? That would be something new.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,781
    The two times I watched SPECTRE so far failed to impress me with any special relationship between Bond and Swann beyond those he had with the majority of female sidekicks during the franchise. Any normal man would have been happy to resign from service several times and marry one of them, or maybe at least one-half of the lot. But that never kept the producers from simply sending them (the surviving ones) into oblivion as a rule, starting from the next movie's gunbarrel scene or PTS.

    As for Bond having resigned, how often did that happen before, seemingly or official? He always came back or was made to come back.

    They could simply forget Swann and act as if Bond had never had so much as a sabbatical in the meantime and still start Bond 25 as a clean slate. The only thing I'm afraid of is that they feel obliged to follow up on that unfortunate, still somewhat cringe-inducing Bloberhauser/step brother business. I'd prefer them to just let Bond/MI6 say, "Blofeld is rotting in prison now, let's concentrate on our real work instead of M's (as in TWINE or SKYFALL) or Bond's (as in SPECTRE) personal foes." GOLDFINGER didn't suffer from making everyone forget about S.P.E.C.T.R.E. (the organisation) either.

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,781
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That's the great part of this influx of members. All of our long near dead ongoing arguments will now find a new life!
    Looks to me they have all been going strong enough even before the 3rd of February...and starting on page 15 without having read pages 1 through 14 I fully expected not to utter something startlingly new.
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